History: Actual, Fictional and Legendary discussion
Common errors in history
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My mother felt strongly that although bad teachers should be gotten out of the profession, teachers need a tenure system to protect them from the vagaries of politics and bad principals. She had one principal who would have gotten rid of her if he could, because he was incompetent and she pointed out his blunders to him, e.g. mismanaging the school's budget so they ran out of crucial supplies. With the way politics operate here (NM), I'd have to agree with her.I wish we as a country would come up with a better system for choosing textbooks - as you noted, Ed, politics play a ridiculously large part there too, especially the excessive influence Texas has. Now they're using their power to try to rewrite the history texts, too, in favor of far-right-wing tenets.
That is quite scary in it's own way James. Its a bit like the Russians starting to change their history textbooks and teaching about Stalin so that the current generation of kids learn he was a hero, not the reality of who he was and what he did. Apparently they government believes Russians need a new hero as they are lacking in their culture. But I'm sure they have better then Stalin in their history? I've had 2 Russian flatmates and they were absolutly horrified by the idea.
I read something about a growth of nostalgia for Stalin in Russia. A lot of people prefer order to freedom, even a murderous kind of order - I have to ask myself whether they realize that Stalin killed many more Soviet citizens than the Nazis did (of course, there's also a growing neo-Nazi subculture in Russia, which makes even less sense to me.)I heard an instructive anecdote about the memory of Stalin. After he was dead, Nikita Krushchev (who had pretty bloody hands himself) set about exposing the crimes of Stalin. He was speaking on the subject to a large audience, when someone called out a challenge, saying, basically, "You were one of the people who were there - why didn't you stand up to Stalin?"
Krushchev instantly roared, "WHO SAID THAT?" and a terrified silence fell over the crowd. After a few more moments, he said quietly, "That's why."
James wrote: "I read something about a growth of nostalgia for Stalin in Russia. A lot of people prefer order to freedom, even a murderous kind of order - I have to ask myself whether they realize that Stalin ki..."I have quite a lot of Russian acquaintances. They tend to adore Putin and claim that Mikhail Gorbachev is one of the worst criminals in Russian history.
I just don't get it!
BTW Great story!
I grew up in Thatcher's Britian, many people still view her as great for the country...many also remember the bad times and have a hatred for her.I suppose that's it isn't it, did the tyrant benefit them or not? You can look from the outside with a broad Hx perspective and see horror or progress, but if the percieved progress causes you to personnaly lose then you can't help but view it as bad. And obviously the reverse is true. Rightly or wrongly, rational analysis of Hx factors and events tend to be influenced by whether there is food on your table.
Often true, and yet it's also true that people often vote against their own interests because they're listening to what a politician says and not paying attention to what he/she actually does and whether his/her statements are true. A lot of Americans who are far from wealthy have stubbornly voted for candidates whose policies overwhelmingly favored the very rich at the expense of the middle class and the poor, because those candidates were good at acting folksy and at sounding sincere while telling outrageous lies.
You know you're dealing with people who aren't clear on the details when they're screaming that they don't want the government involved in Medicare or Social Security... I attribute it partly to the systematic elimination from most school curricula of anything resembling the teaching of critical thinking skills - the tug of war over the function of education was won decades ago by those who want it to produce docile people qualified to wear paper hats and ask "Would you like to supersize that?" rather than competent citizens.
This is what pissed Socrates off, way back in the day when the Greeks were experimenting with democracy. It's difficult to keep track of politics; there are professionals who spend their lives doing it, and many of them are terrible at it. Why on earth would one pass off authority to everyone in the room - people without any required expertise whatsoever? It's like asking the ER waiting room for a vote on how to remove a bullet. It was in part Socrates' disdain for democracy that made him so dangerous that he had to be put down.That's a terrible paraphrase of Socrates' argument, not my own. I myself am still fond of democracy; I just wish New England would secede. :)
Only if the rest of the blue states can come along! We're kind of besieged here in New Mexico - our governor and all of our Congressional delegation are Dems, but the surrounding states - Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas - are all bright red.Looking as if we may lose the gubernatorial race this year, though; the incumbent, Bill Richardson, has run a maggot-gaggingly corrupt administration for eight years (about as corrupt as the eight-year Republican governor before him; this is a third world country disguised as one of the United States, after all.) Richardson can't run again because of term limits, so his lieutenant guv, Diane Denish, is running. His record is a real burden for her, though, despite the fact that she wasn't involved in most of the corruption and even locked horns with Richardson on some of it.
One of our three House districts looks like it may go back to red, too, the pseudo-Texan oil patch down in the southeast corner of the state where they believe in intelligent design but not in global warming.
In general, I think we could do a lot better even without the voters having the depth of expertise of the professionals, if only we could get voters to do the necessary fact-checking - call it due diligence; to vote based on who would make the best manager rather than with whom they'd rather drink beer; and perhaps, if this isn't asking for the moon, to understand some fairly basic math.
Ahhh, give folk bread and circuses though...
Totally. I'm okay with the breakdown of American society, but where are my damn circuses?
In other news, my Red Sox have been eliminated.
Kind of interesting, there's a trilogy of YA novels (excellent for general readership, I think after reading them) called the The Hunger Games Trilogy by Suzanne Collins.
They're set in a dystopian future America ruled by a ruthless central government that uses bread and circuses, basically, along with terror, to keep the populace in line. Collins explicitly makes the connection to the Roman empire, and even names the country Panem, i.e. "bread" in Latin.
The books are apparently so explosively popular with high school and college age readers that a studio has already bought the film rights and announced that the first film will come out in 2011, and people are speculating about the series being the next Twilight or Harry Potter. Stephen King gave the trilogy a rave review. A caution for anyone with kids that might be reading it, or to whom you might be thinking of reading it - I'd rate the trilogy R for the brutal violence and streak of horror that is an integral part of the story. It's as dark as the darkest parts of the Harry Potter series or the Tolkien trilogy. For this topic string, it would have to be called fictional future history.
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How true this is of South Carolina! "Cotton Ed" Smith and Coley Blease, to begin with. But the list goes on and on.
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And you were wondering where your circuses were?
Ed wrote: "Andrea wrote: "I'm not a biologist, but I think the time frames Darwin suggested might now be considered too vast, as we understand more about mutations? I know I read something about the Burgess ..."There's a distinction to be made, perhaps, between Calvin and Calvinists? Although, please, don't speak of Calvinists in the past tense only:). Here's a quote from "Institutes" to support my defense of Calvin. "For faith certainly promises itself neither longevity, nor honour, nor wealth, in the present state; since the Lord has not been pleased to appoint any of these things for us; but is contented with this assurance, that whatever we may want of the conveniences or necessaries of this life, yet God will never leave us."
Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Just on my hobby horse.
I live in a Big Ten town, so we had a "circus" here yesterday. Was a little depressed that the bookstore where I work chose to replace our usual classical music with the "big game" over the stereo system. Sigh.
I think one of the most pervasive errors in history is believing that ancient Greece actually happened.
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C'mon, Andrea, MSU was playing Michigan. Some things are more important than others.
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You mean to say the whole thing including all the ruins was a myth?
Sad, huh? I was so fond of Sophocles, too.
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Is that a "sophist" comment?
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Anyway,in deference to Ed's comment, the Spartans I see around here are not anything like the Spartans I've read about.
Oh, The Onion, now I get it. I need to follow links more thoroughly.
I find this thread so interesting that I like to contribute some thoughts, even though I am late:The secularization might be less advanced than moderners think through their cultural bias. The modern-time researcher Scott Schieman published a paper, Socioeconomic Status and Beliefs about God’s Influence in Everyday Life, with astonishing findings. First, an overwhelming 78 percent of his respondents in the United States of America were either Protestant (53 percent) or Catholic (24 percent). Only 12 percent had responded as not religious and 2 percent as Jewish. The secularization in England, in comparison, is more advanced than in the United States. There, 53 percent claim to be Christians, and 39 percent are nonreligious; the membership in the latter designation seems to rapidly grow with younger generations. An astonishing two-thirds have no connection with the church.
That is now, and it is an improvement from 50, 100, 500 years ago. I would like to take this further:
When it comes to history, the issues of groupthink and bias are particularly strong—so much so that religious writers of any given faith have had a vested interest in rewriting history according to that faith. Modern experts of history don’t seem to have an interest in correcting such revisions, as that process must inevitably lead to the collapse of their worldview and belief system. After all, the Christian writers are still a solid majority.
In other words, a lot of historic "errors" are in reality deliberate fabrications. Before opening any book of history, old or modern, the first questions I research are:
- the belief of the writer (including the specific beliefs of the sect of the writer)
- the location of the writing
- the historical context of the writing
- possible vested interests
Since I read with this system, I can predict the outcome of the tale in most cases.
As a modern example: before reading a report about climate change, I ask what might happen if I lock 1600 climate scientists into one room with the task to come up with a prediction about climate change. I can predict the prediction: disaster. Anything else would lead to their oblivion.
While some of us think that the discussion about creationist theories are ridiculous, we have to bear in mind that we have created a world of experts, who submit to a group-think. We then think that said bias is knowledge. Evolutionists have the same problem. Evolution is kind of obvious, yet there is this tiny little detail of the origin of that arch-energy that expands and collapses in bangs.
So, we have replaced religion--for a minority--with bias. In the process we learn absolutely nothing from our ancestors.
A.J. wrote: "Evolutionists have the same problem. Evolution is kind of obvious, yet there is this tiny little detail of the origin of that arch-energy that expands and collapses in bangs. "Um, what does evolutionary theory have to do with the Big Bang? Nice god of the gaps + non sequitur...
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The secularization might be less advanced than moderners think through their cultural bias. The ..."
I keep going back to The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer. It has been a lighthouse of clear thinking in the midst of a very thick fog. Helps me understand the "Tea Party", Extreme Islam, Christian Fundamentalism, and the Boy Scouts.
The good news is that, according to Hoffer, eventually all these so-called belief systems become so organized, they become irrelevant and fade away. Even Christianity will eventually reach irrelevancy, if it hasn't already. (Lots of people say they are practicing Christians when in fact the only practicing they do is praying when things go bad or they are in a fox-hole, so to speak.)
Islam is going to take longer because it is a newer movement and until the populations of the Muslim areas get better educated, they have no way of evaluating what they are being told.
Evolution is for many people, including myself, a belief system, since I've never done any research on the subject. Climate change is in the same bucket. So are financial derivatives.
Point is: as long as people believe that the truth lies "out there, somewhere", religions and other mass movements will exist.
Baudolino: I am not here for polemics, an exchange of factoid punches.When putting evolution as antonym of creation, then evolution rejects that there is a creation. I guess, the obvious part of evolution is that life adapts, evolves. However, the creationist asks "what drives that evolution, how did it start". This really is the point of contention. Has something supernatural created it or does the universe evolve, too. But then how, and from what? What sparked the beginning of evolution? We (!) evolutionaries can't satisfactorily answer that question and probably never will. Hence, there is room for the 80% of Americans that adhere to Judaic belief systems: Is there a creation and then it evolves? Probably not. But if not, then how and since when?
Ed, I am going to have a look at The True Believer. Does it help you in detecting "errors" of history? How do you overcome the bias of modern experts that tell you with one voice that this is how things work only to come out a couple of years later that now the opposite is true?
Reading Cin's post up there, I can't help but thinking about the 32 years under my country's second president (Soeharto) where all national history books were 'rewritten' for the ruling party's interests. currently, the govt is rewriting its manual history books (whatever that means) but I don't think it will be easy. Many people who used to have power or at least were near to those who had power, have published various memoirs (allegedly true stories), which are great for the nation's knowledge, but I kinda wish there is just one book of national history that everyone can rely on. Pfft, not gonna happen in the near future. Our current president has just caused a ruckus due to his publishing books on him and using the budget of the Ministry of Education to pay for the making. Students in certain regions are obliged to read. Talking about indoctrination while in power and I don't live in North Korea *snort*
Silvana wrote: "Reading Cin's post up there, I can't help but thinking about the 32 years under my country's second president (Soeharto) where all national history books were 'rewritten' for the ruling party's int..."Silvana, do you have to post on sites like this using tor or privoxy? Or is your government not quite that authoritarion? I heard there's been increased monitoring etc in the UK as a result of recent student unrest, not up to speed with Indonesian politics though.
Regarding the thread subject, common errors is one thing but lack of any info on a subject I find a bit more sinister...or when entire issues are simply never mentioned in a text. The Irish Civil War is difficult to get a balanced view of if it's mentioned in more detail than a footnote. Due to complexity of the issue? Proximity in time?
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Reading Cin's post up there, I can't help but thinking about the 32 years under my country's second president (Soeharto) where all national history books were 'rewritten' for the ru..."Nah it's ok. The State Ministry of Communication has (claimed to have successfully) banned 80% of all porn sites but apparently Indonesia is still in the top ten list of porn downloader globally. The State Ministry is too stupid when it comes to technology...it threatened to close RIM services a month ago (which outraged millions of blackberry users in the country).
Internet penetration (and users) are increasing rapidly no matter what the government says/does.
Oh and the govt now plans to impose high taxes on all foreign movies which could result in the bankruptcy of movie studios, malls, restaurants etc. MPA and MPAA have threatened to boycott.
Nationalistic sentiments are rampant due to fame-seeking politicians. And that includes our beloved president who couldn't even give order to disband a very active (and destructive) fanatical group who stated they wanted to oust him (while this group murdered innocent people a few weeks ago - you can find the record on youtube).
But we'll survive. Indonesians are known to be creative in harsh times LOL
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No, "True Believer" does not concern itself with history but rather how mass movements get started, grow, solidify, calcify and die.
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I worked for an educational publisher in the U.S. for many years. The textbooks that are given to children are not accurate. Publishers either print what school boards and/or teachers want or they cannot sell their books. If a student is lucky he or she will have a teacher that fills in the blanks or raises issues not covered in the textbook.
I remember growing up and having my 8th grade social studies teacher raise the issue of integration years before the Civil Rights movement began.
In high School my American History teacher, when the Supreme Court decision on school integration came down, extemporaneously spent the class hour explaining how the decision came about and what the history of "Separate but Equal" was. None of this was in a textbook, where everything American was "Good" including the massacre of innocent Native Americans.
When I was an editor, I wanted to put a photo of the Holocaust ovens in a sixth grade Social Studies textbook. My boss killed it and suggested that there was something wrong with me in that I was going to show such horror to a sixth grader.
No the textbooks will never present the truth but rather the socially acceptable myths.
Even college textbooks are not to be trusted. One must trust only their own research or choose to believe another's work.
My favorite is from a movie ( I doubt this is true but still) Never fight a Land War in Asia. Its from the Princess Bride.The prediction seems to come true. If you count Western Russia as Asia both Napoleon and Hitler lost a war when they invaded Russia. The US lost both the Korean War and the Vietnam War as well as the Afghanistan War and the war in Irac. ( I spelled that wrong, sorry) The only war we one in Asia is World War Two and thats because we used the Atomic Bomb. I bet if we did not use it then we would have lost.
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(last edited Oct 29, 2015 01:17PM)
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History: Actual, Fictional and Legendary
Books mentioned in this topic
The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (other topics)Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2 Vols (other topics)
The Hunger Games Trilogy Boxset (other topics)
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (other topics)
Bully for Brontosaurus: Reflections in Natural History (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Eric Hoffer (other topics)Stephen King (other topics)
Suzanne Collins (other topics)
MacKinlay Kantor (other topics)
Stephen Crane (other topics)
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I believe Calvinists also believed economic success was a sign of God's favor, not just the Puritans, unless my Cultural Anthropology professor was mistaken.