Why are SciFi and Fantasy so often grouped as one?

[Arkadia]

This is something I've been meaning to ask for a long while and I figure here is as good a place as any.

Why are the genres of science fiction and fantasy so often grouped together?

I'm not really an avid science fiction or fantasy reader; I'll read a book of the genres if it falls into my hands, but I typically stick to my own niche genre of horror. I do particularly enjoy science fiction, but I tend not to enjoy fantasy at all. I'm aware there are different kinds of fantasy, though I'm not sure on the exact categorical descriptions - high fantasy etc. And I'm aware that sci-fi could be grouped into fantasy - aka the depiction of something not of this current reality.

Maybe the problem is that my definitions are off. But I find it so frustrating when I go into a book store and sci-fi and fantasy are grouped into the same section - I have to sift through fantasy to find the science fiction. Same goes for websites - many deal with sci-fi and fantasy at the same time, and sometimes give no way of differentiating between the two.

Is this something I as a non-reader of the genres simply don't get? Is this something that bothers fantasy and science fiction fans alike? Is the vast majority of fantasy fans also science fiction fans? Am I frequenting the wrong stores and websites?

Please do let me know your insights, I'm so very curious :)

[Traveller]

Well, I read both those genres, along with dark fiction and horror, and sometimes all three genres merge, such as with the fiction of Ray Bradbury and Gene Wolfe, even with Tanith Lee and the much *cough* discussed Stephen King.

Usually in bookstores I do find them seperately though close together (sort of as a section with sub-sections).

I find that SF usually has technological or at least non-magical elements, while fantasy usually has "magical" elements. That is how I usually discern between those two genres. :)

[Puddin Pointy-Toes]

Arkadia wrote: "Why are the genres of science fiction and fantasy so often grouped together?"

I think the grouping might stem from science-fiction being viewed more as (and being closer to) a variant of fantasy rather than a genre in its own right in its early history. Early modern science-fiction did focus on science and technology, but the situations the characters found themselves in tended to be (and often still are) fantastical and whimsical. Certainly this was the case with classical science-fiction, too.

Personally I'd like to see this lumping end, particularly because in smaller shops you'll see little more than Star Wars, Star Trek and other licensed stuff and then a huge swath of fantasy, and that's what they call a big SF/F section. Ugh.

[Arkadia]

Thank you for both your insights :) Trav, that's typically how I define fantasy/sci-fi also. I think perhaps my favourite kind of story is sci-fi horror - they're so rare but so often brilliant - so I understand what you mean about all the genres merging. I'd like to see someone merge more unusual combinations - a fantasy detective story for instance, or a sci-fi western (okay, sci-fi westerns are probably more common than I initially mused).

J, I think you've made a great point. It definitely seems to be convention more than anything. And I share your frustration with the 'big SF/F' sections containing 'licensed' sci fi and nothing more.

[Simon]

I think that these genres are so often put together in bookstores for the simple reason that, more often than not, someone who likes one will also like the other. I am one of those people and I think it is because both genres are deeply speculative, enjoyed by people who like to fire up their imagination and are tickled by playing with the rules of reality as we commonly accept them.

I sympathise with those who only enjoy one or the other but I must admit that personally, I am glad they are put together. I wish they put horror in with them as well.

The problem with classifying books is that some are difficult to classify. There are many books I know of that could be classified as either SF or fantasy. I wouldn't know which section to look for them if they were seperated. In addition, it is annoying that some books are classified as straight fiction when they share many themes with SF and fantasy. Sometimes I think it would just be easier if they put all fiction into one section.

[Phoenixfalls]

To add to this discussion -- another reason you'll often find them together is related to Simon's point: not only do most of the genre readers read both; most of the genre authors WRITE both, and they certainly did when this classification system became commonplace decades ago. And when a person comes in to a bookstore and asks "Where's the new C.J. Cherryh novel?" a bookseller can be positive it's in the SF/Fantasy section without knowing whether it's a new book in her Foreigner series (SF) or her Fortress in the Eye of Time series (fantasy). :)

[Alice]

I haven't read all of the posts. I would say that a lot of SciFi is Futuristic Fantasy and Fantasy is Medieval SciFi. The FTL propulsion and phaser/laser/ disruptor pistols can be equated to teleportation and magic wands. The heroes and situations can be the same as well. A planet can equal a kingdom. I could go on. The long and the short of it is that Tech=Magic.

[Stephen]

Alice wrote: "I haven't read all of the posts. I would say that a lot of SciFi is Futuristic Fantasy and Fantasy is Medieval SciFi. The FTL propulsion and phaser/laser/ disruptor pistols can be equated to tele..."

I'm really surprised this isn't in the Arthur C. Clarke forum. He said "....any sufficiently advanced science or technology will have the appearance of magic..." Probably his most famous quote.

[Paul]

Sadly, far too many people living today understand technology so little, anything more complex that a wheelbarrow might as well be magic...

[Stephen]

Paul wrote: "Sadly, far too many people living today understand technology so little, anything more complex that a wheelbarrow might as well be magic..."

Oh, I don't know about THAT, as far as the average westerner is concerned, but to a very primitive third worlder...it would DEFINITELY have the appearance of magic! I.E.: infra-red remote controls, cds, stereo, holograms, TV, PCs, pictures of far away galaxies and planets, etc....There are still primitive tribes that believe that cameras are stealing their souls when they take pictures....

Stephen H. Turner
The Last Voyage of the Cassiopeia
Almagest: The Adventures of MarsShield
3700
The Avedon Question

[Simon]

Alice wrote: "I haven't read all of the posts. I would say that a lot of SciFi is Futuristic Fantasy and Fantasy is Medieval SciFi. The FTL propulsion and phaser/laser/ disruptor pistols can be equated to tele..."

The problem with this definition is that so much fantasy is contemporary or futuristic and a lot of SF is set in the past.

[Jeff]

Paul wrote: "Sadly, far too many people living today understand technology so little, anything more complex that a wheelbarrow might as well be magic..."

Now that's funny right there...and true. :)

[Amanda]

Fantasy, Magical Realism and Sci-Fi (and a fair bit of horror too, come to think of it) contain unreal elements that require the reader to suspend their disbelief to be able to fully enjoy what they are reading - I believe this is why often they are pushed together, even if it feels unnatural.

I once heard the distinction described as Fantasy being 'things that could have happened, but didn't' and Sci-Fi as 'things that could happen, but haven't yet'. But this does't seem completely satisfactory to me.

I think it has more to do with the explaination of the unreal elements - if the explaination is science or technology, it is probably going to be a Sci-Fi; if it is left unexplained it is more than likely Magical Realism; or if dismissed as magic or otherworldly physics is it often a Fantasy. The supernatural is used to explain horror.

As previously noted though, there are cross-overs. The one that struck me the most was Artmeis Fowl. Is it Fantasy? Sci-Fi? A fusion? With the exclusion of horror, which is obviously written to thrill and chill, the distinction is not always clear. This is perhaps why many outlets will save themselves a lot of time, worry and potential controversy by putting everything together.

I'm looking forward to reading Cantacle for Leibowitz soon - that looks like a bit of a genre bender too...

[Stephen]

I'm looking forward to reading Cantacle for Leibowitz soon - that looks like a bit of a genre bender too...
-----------------------------------------------------

It's a heavy, verbose read, but its point is made. You'll be put in mind of Fahrenheit 451, On The Beach, Brave New World and 1984...not necessarily in that order.

Steve

[Amanda]

It's a heavy, verbose read, but its point is made. You'll be put in mind of Fahrenheit 451, On The Beach, Brave New World and 1984...not necessarily in that order.

Sounds promising...thanks :)

[Stephen]

Amanda wrote: "It's a heavy, verbose read, but its point is made. You'll be put in mind of Fahrenheit 451, On The Beach, Brave New World and 1984...not necessarily in that order.

Sounds promising...thanks :)"

No problem-o! :-)

BTW, check THESE guys out while you're at it!: (shameless plug)

The Last Voyage of the Cassiopeia
Almagest: The Adventures of MarsShield
3700
The Avedon Question

Stephen H. Turner

[mark]

Amanda wrote: "I'm looking forward to reading Cantacle for Leibowitz soon - that looks like a bit of a genre bender too..."

bleak themes with an often funny, light touch - although not an easy book to get into, for some (including myself). but once i realized the effort was worth it, i got a lot out of it. the structure was interesting, challenging. novels with religion at their core are often absorbing to me personally. i appreciated the humanist values and agreed with the at times progressive, other times cynical and determinist stances. all that plus some super post-apocalyptic world-building as well. a true classic and therefore probably off-putting for many. hey, i think i'll turn this into a review!

[Amanda]

I was already sold on it, but now you have me chomping at the bit Mark! Sounds just like my kind of thing...