The Infernal Devices discussion
Team Will vs. Team Jem
It's more of a ... book debate, than a virtual uproar:) I am just for Will because I can connect with him more. I just want him with Tessa because I think, personally, that they have more in common.
Ella wrote: "I am so incredibly and entirely team Will. I think that he and Tessa belong together. He is funny and charming and makes her laugh even when shes mad. They like ALL the same books and poetry. And h..."I think were twins
Emma wrote: "Ella wrote: "I am so incredibly and entirely team Will. I think that he and Tessa belong together. He is funny and charming and makes her laugh even when shes mad. They like ALL the same books and ..."What? let us give Will a break. yes, he got confused with that cursed issue - but he learned the truth already. its a big step for him to right what had been done wrong. with Tessa, for me she is a strong young woman trying to make the best decision because she is alone in the world. i do believe they compliment each other. hardened by all the difficulties they encountered plus the strong attraction they felt for each other its a positive match.
Wow. You people are really ya-know, good match-makers.Hmm... I am team both. Please, just chill.
@Enelra: Yes. I am a peace-maker, I think. :B
Daylighter wrote:"You have to realize that it is very opinionated as to who has suffered more, since you can't realistically compare people's sufferings and pain, unless you've lived as both of them."
@Daylighter: I totes agree.
Flora wrote: "Wow. You people are really ya-know, good match-makers.Hmm... I am team both. Please, just chill.
@Enelra: Yes. I am a peace-maker, I think. :B
Daylighter wrote:"You have to realize that it is v..."
But this thread is 'Team Will vs. Team Jem'.
Of course we have to debate! :D
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "(Directed @ no one in particular)I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him because his life is of short duration. I sympath..."
I honestly don't think Cassie wrote Jem's death in to make us fall in love with him, I think it was more for a contrast purpose. I love Jem not because he is dying, but because his ability to love and his utter selflessness. I don't think anyone can argue that Jem is a selfless character. Call him boring, too sweetsy, anything... But he's selfless, and strong, in his own way. This is why I love Jem, not because of his imminent death.
Another thing: Jem is going to die. Will is going to die. Charlotte is going to die. Henry is going to die. Every. Character. Is. Going. To. Die. (Well, unless they are immortal...) Jem is condemned to death, yes, but so are all of the other characters... Cassie has written it as if Jem is going to die soon, but the fact is WE DON'T KNOW. The books could make a dramatic twist and Will could die, or they could all die... I feel that it's too unpredictable to love a character based on the fact that they're sick and dying. When I read about Jem, I only think about his death when it's brought up. Not saying anybody here does... Just saying. I don't know. Had to get my thoughts out, and they did, although rather clumsily... I don't know, hahahah it makes so much more sense in my head. :P
Mod
I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him because his life is of..."
I agree with you and of course we don't love Jem, because he's dying! There's so much to his character other than his health. That was such an obvious thing that I didn't even comment on that post before. Not to mention I was dumbfounded by that comment. Also I could argue the same thing about Will and say how many people would have still liked him if he never had the curse on him and had stayed with his family. I would never use that argument though, cause it's pointless and irrelevant.
"The Breeze" wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "(Directed @ no one in particular)I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him because his life is of..."
Then who is brother Zachariah?????
and I never contradict those who say Jem is selfless. I'm just saying that so is Will, he's just never been given the chance to be the real him.
Flora wrote: "Wow. You people are really ya-know, good match-makers.Hmm... I am team both. Please, just chill.
@Enelra: Yes. I am a peace-maker, I think. :B
Daylighter wrote:"You have to realize that it is v...".
Aww Flora I like you.... Mostly because Honey is the best thing to happen to life and he is your avatar! That being said I understand that some people enjoy Will a character with few redeeming qualities and a very damaged psyche. But I personally am sick of brooding sullen characters in books. It is annoying and there is no possible way Will being the way he is could sustain a a healthy relationship with someone like Tessa she needs help and he presents himself as an emotionally crippled prick
Enelra wrote: "Emma wrote: "Ella wrote: "I am so incredibly and entirely team Will. I think that he and Tessa belong together. He is funny and charming and makes her laugh even when shes mad. They like ALL the sa..."I'm just going to have to disagree with you I don't think it isn't a positive match and I most certainly disagree that Will deserves a break. It would be a mistake and while I would love to shovel out even more intellectual reasons why as I have done previously I am going to just settle for saying he is a suckish carbon copy of any other brooding sullen love interest in the supernatural book genre except without most of the redeeming qualities that makes them relevant, exciting or tolerable. To me he is poorly written and the only way to redeem his character is to kill him off in the next book. Plain and simple the character annoys me so much that I want to flip past the pages were his name is even mentioned. Maybe there will be some growth in the next book but I just don't know if it will be enough to make him readable to me. It isn't shocking to me though that he is a polarizing character.
Daylighter wrote: ""The Breeze" wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "(Directed @ no one in particular)I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him b..."
I love that you addressed that comment I just couldn't touch it. It was so...... Well you read it. I had missed were someone had even claimed that Jem was loveable because of his physical constitution.
"The Breeze" wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "(Directed @ no one in particular)I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him because his life is of..."
Ahh reason I enjoy it very much. While I am not Team Jem so much for who he is but for who his opposition is (Will) I definitely agree with all of what you said
Tessa wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on him, I will seriously be pissed. And look wh..."See Tessa this is were you are wrong and mostly because you do not know me. You know what they say about assuming don't you? But I digress judging from his actions and responses I (like a lot of people) have a higher E.Q. than the character so it would be highly unlikely that I would revert back to infantile behaviors to cope with my issues whatever they maybe. In closing I will simply repeat the aforementioned thought You. Are. Wrong.
Tessa wrote: "Emma wrote: "Tessa wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "Emma wrote: "Lets get real for a moment all of WIlls "suffering" doesnt even begin to compare to Jems. Secondly young adults throwing temper tantrums is..."I'm also sorry to hear about your grandmother I have lost three very close family members to fatal illnesses (an aunt: cancer and cousin: cancer and uncle: aids) I know how hard that can be and while I'm sure I come off as a total b**** I do honestly mean it when I say that I will keep you and your family in my prayers. That being said did you not appreciate that I implied that you made the aforementioned parallel or that others continued to make the parallel
Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on him, I will seriously be pissed. And look wh..."Ok... (Inhales deep breath) .... You are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate that. But losing someone should not be paralleled with an imaginary curse with the pretend curse winning out. Time doesn't ever ever ever take away the ache the physical ache of losing someone you have it is something you feel everytime you think about that person for the rest of your life and it hurts just the same (for me personally and as far as my studies indicate for a majority of other people as well) the difference is that with time you learn to manage that hurt it is still there and it isn't lessened and should not be devalued because some time has passed. That is possibly the quickest way to annoy me. My emotional stances and baggage aside (or not) I don't like pitiful, broody, weak, or idiotic book characters. I don't like Bella: Twilight (pitiful/weak), I don't like Ever: Evermore (idiotic), I don't like Edward or Jacob: Twilight (broody) and I dont like Will (broody and infantile). So my opinion will probably remain the same unless their is a major overhall of the characters personality. The Greek writers knew exactly what to do to characters like Will...... Kill them off in an ironic and yet totally respectable manner.
Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on him, I will seriously be pi..."O.o???
My reaction when I read your comment. (The latter...)
Okay. Why kill Will? And why is Will infantile? He... well... to me... is perfectly boy-ish.
I dont like Twilight either. To be honest.
As for pitiful, broody, weak, or idiotic book characters as you said, I dont really like them either. I am team both btw. I think both of them have suffered enough, and teaming them is the least I could do. So... yea. :)
P.s Thanks for saying my icon is nice. :) I like Honey too.
If Will gets killed off in any way- I don't care even if it is noble I am going to hate this trilogy forever. All those hours I spent on it would turn out to be an utter waste. I am not ready to settle for anything less than a happy ending for Will.
Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on him, I will se..."I owe Stephanie Meyer alot. Her books really developed my love for reading. Now when I reflect back on her books, I see how much better books can be but still... And Charlotte, I will, too, hate this trilogy if anything happens to Will fatally.
Again, just to note I never said that people love Jem just because he is dying. I am sorry if I implied that but what I meant was that I think people sympathize with him more because he is dying whereas Will is not, physically anyway...So yeah, please don't pound on me for considering that possibility. I'm not saying that there is nothing more to Jem than that. He's so sweet and so good-hearted. I was just thinking out loud. What if Will was in Jem's shoes? I was just wondering how someone would react to that, as well as a good person dying. That's all.
I like how you worded that. Though I am completely against that in every possible way and all for Will, I respect your opinion.
"The Breeze" wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "(Directed @ no one in particular)I am not going to like Jem just because he is dying. His situation is not going to make me just fall all over him because his life is of..."
I never said that's WHY people love Jem. I agree that Jem is a very strong and independent character who is very admirable. I was just thinking, out loud that is, that I think with Jem's condition that has allowed people to sympathize with him and want to get to know the character more. Whereas Will comes off as completely ignorant (though I love him) and sarcastic and hard. People sympathized with him once they learned of his situation as well. Because then you get to understand the character more. Which allows you to connect with them then like them. It was just an interesting thought. I wasn't assuming people liked him only for that. But if you were to swtich Jem and Will's situation I was just wondering out of pure curiousity what reactions would be derived from that.
I was only voicing an abrupt thought that interested me. Sorry if anyone misconstrued my words, I apologize for that and really should have said that a different way:)
Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on him, I will se..."Will is a very unoriginal character in the genre admittedly so is Tessa. While Tessa manages to remain interesting Will falls flat and can promptly be stowed away with the other supernatural boy toys his one major difference from the other broodies is that *opinion* he has none of the redeeming qualities that some of the others have.He is another pretty boy with an attitude and mommy issues. Throwing temper tantrums is an infantile behavior also not being able to cope with with not getting what you want shows a lack of maturity. And in support of you will lovers and in opposition of my obviously unpopular opinion, Will doesn't have to die *opinion* even though it would make the next book easier to read, he just needs to exhibit the ability to grow and evolve with or without Tessa otherwise *opinion* he is just another codependant waste of ink character like Edward Cullen of twilight fame. I miss characters like Lestat: Anne Rice with multiple dimensions and real life relatibility. For those of you who have read books by miss Rice you already know characters in the genre just don't measure up anymore and for those of you who haven't you should. I'm all off topic now but yea.....
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on ..."Stephanie Meyer is without a doubt a great writer. She has this way of making you feel like you are part of one of the most private moments in her characters lives.... Doesn't change the fact that she spawned not one but three of the most annoying characters ever *opinion*. Bella to me is one of the most disempowering female characters ever. It actually caused me emotional distress to read the way she acted sometimes. Victoria the vampire trying to Kill Bella could have been a much more compelling main character. Like Bella Will falls flat in so many areas he isn't even broody in a deep way! It just....... Gives me headache
How is Will immature? Yes, I agree, he is juvenile at some points but in others comes across as very realistic and emotionally involved. I also don't agree with him being unable to cope with the events he was forced into due to a very devastating occurance. I don't know how you find him having "mommy" issues, if I were in his predicament, I wouldn't be handling it so well. He wasted five years of his life which I'm sure would make anyone distraught for a short period of time and, given the circumstances, I think he handles it exceptionally well. I think he does manage to evolve more so than Jem in my personal opinion. We have learned more about his background and it is very probable that this next book may shift people's perspective on him and on Jem and Tessa's current state.
I don't find him codependent as you do. I think he is a strong independent figure who just so happens to be very close to some people since basically, Jem is all he's ever been allowed to care for for the past five years. I don't find any of the characters bland (I know you didn't use that word, I am just noting this) although I wish Jem had been given the chance to progress more in emotional impact.
@ Emma. (completely irrelevent to main topic:)And I agree with you that Stephanie Meyer is a great writer. In the first book, though, she used the word "incredulous" alot. But her books began my love for fiction, and yes, I am still currently Team Edward. Bella annoys me and so does Jacob. I also read her other book the Host, though it was a little strange but awesome. (Sorry for being completely off-topic, I just wanted to say that:)
Mod
And I agree with you that Stephanie Meyer is a great writer. In the first book, though, she used the word "incredulous" alot. But her books began my ..."
Continuing with the off topic convo, The Host is so much better in comparison to Twilight. Although the ending wasn't the greatest.
Emma wrote: "Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really had a curse on ..."So... You are actually quite a realistic person? I see. Of course, Will can be infantile and have some mommy issues, as you said. He's only 17. What do you expect from a teenager? A mature, know-it-all, serious dude? I wouldnt like him then. Just like Jem. He aint that mature, and neither is he infantile, because he didn't really show a lot of expressions. And Cassie didn't describe him as much as she described Will.
Agreed. Jem doesn't show much emotion which I've said in the past and @ Daylighter, yeah I liked the ending but she's making a sequel The Soul which is due to come out....sometime. I love Ian!
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "How is Will immature? Yes, I agree, he is juvenile at some points but in others comes across as very realistic and emotionally involved. I also don't agree with him being unable to cope with the ev..."....... Will isn't compelling to me...... And I have explained in a lot of my comments why I feel Will is immature. And I agree that none of the characters are bland I think they can stand to be a tad more..... Interesting and fresh and original. The books plot luckily is strong enough to carry itself it is very interesting Will is not. And on that off topic convo OMG how are you team anybody Edwards semi abusive, Jacob is misguided, and Bella is a slap in the face to every strong female character in fiction. I guess Edward is the lesser of the three evils though haha ^_^
Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really ha..."You know at 18 you are considered a legal adult and while I don't expect him to be fully matured I do expect him to act like he has some common sense. He is simply nonsensical the character is not @ all based on real healthy teenage behaviors.... It just bugs the crap out of me. He bugs the crap out of me. And truth be told I don't want him with Tessa because then I would have to read about him even more not to mention all the other reasons I brought up.
(Off topic): I will probably never stop loving Twilight because it really began my love of fiction and romance. True, at some points I want to shoot Jacob and in other points I'd love to slap Bella and tell her to get a grip but still...And Edward is awesome. He's so much better in the books whereas in the movies, he's so hard (haha ignore the pun:) Anyway, back on topic here, I think Will is the most realistic one out of all of them. Yeah, I don't know what average boy has had a "curse" over him for five years but just disposition and attitude-wise, he's definitely the most vivid in possible existence. Jem acts as if he should be 25 or 30. I give him a hand for maturity but I just love Will's personality.
Daylighter wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "@ Emma. (completely irrelevent to main topic:)And I agree with you that Stephanie Meyer is a great writer. In the first book, though, she used the word "incredulous" alo..."
Host is better than Twilight mostly because you don't want to kick the main character in the neck haha ^_^! Bella just...... Well you read the books
Yeah, but I also read Twilight when I was 10 so...But the Host was awesome. The idea took me awhile to get used to, though...and I love Ian. He reminds me of Tucker in Unearthly for some reason. (Dunno if you've read those and if you haven't then just ignore the last part:)
Mod
To be fair neither of these characters have had a normal life for them to have "healthy teenage behavior". Not to mention they're from a different era. Jessie, Jem and Tessa are all orphans. Will had his fake curse. So what you probably describe as healthy teenage behavior is based on this era that you've lived in and hopefully a less of a tragic life.
Whose saying he is like the teens from our century?Will just seems the most natural. To me, that is.
Will might be a cliched character, but at least he keeps us entertained. Whereas, Jem is so so bland and flat it is kind of frustrating really. You see, Will at least has issues and that is what makes a character believable. But Jem is a Gary Stu and that is my big issue with the whole trilogy. Jem is not a believable character. On the other hand all other characters- Charlotte, Henry, Tessa, Jessamine, Nathaniel are all flawed and have real character flaws. Jem has none. Not to mention there is no character development or degradation. He has remained at the same position he was in the first one. I don't love him fully and neither do I hate him. He kind of falls in the indifference category had he not been engaged to Tessa and had he not been dying. I probably like him more than I would have because he has a tragic life and an addiction that is killing him.
I think Jem is, well... kinda selfish. But. He cares and really cares for those around him. Really, trust me, he does. Besides, I think Cassie purposefully put Will as a better and 'round' character. Not ya know, as a 'flat' character, like Jem. So... really. I don't know who Tessa will choose. For all I know, she ain't that nice. Not that she's perfect whatsoever. No offence. So, yes, I dont get as to WHY they want to fight over a girl, and breaking their friendship.Is it me or something who find friendship before love?
Flora wrote: "I think Jem is, well... kinda selfish. But. He cares and really cares for those around him. Really, trust me, he does. Besides, I think Cassie purposefully put Will as a better and 'round' characte..."I definitely am the kind of person who puts friendship before love- all the time. I don't think lovers serve the same purpose as friends do. Even I wouldn't want Jem and Will to fight over Tessa. What's the long shot here? She is definitely not perfect nor the one in a million kind. Frankly, she should just choose and get it over with. I hate YA love triangles.
If you see, Tessa and Will had more of a build up and more time to get to know each other than she and Jem did. I have said it before as well that what Tessa wants from Jem is just acceptance. And she said yes to the proposal because she didn't know about the truth of Will's curse then and she had pretty much given up hoping that Will would ever come around. I don't blame her to be wanting with someone who would at least not reject her repeatedly like Will did over the span of both books. It is bound to cause a blow to one's confidence. At least when agreed to get married to Jem, she knew he would be there for her (as long as he is alive, at least). But of course, now we know that Will would probably never leave her too if she chose him.
Also, I definitely don't support the idea of loving two people at the same time with equal intensity. There's only ever one true love. If Tessa has to constantly remind herself that she loves Jem, I doubt the validity of her feelings. Plus, she isn't really supposed to look at Will with any sort of feelings while she is engaged. I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but I personally feel this is called emotional cheating. Jem doesn't deserve this. Not to mention she probably would have never gone to Jem if Will hadn't rejected her advances on the rooftop and called her a prostitute. So where does that put Jem really? Last time I checked, it is callled rebound. Sorry if this hurts anyone, but it is exactly what I feel.
Charlotte wrote: "Will might be a cliched character, but at least he keeps us entertained. Whereas, Jem is so so bland and flat it is kind of frustrating really. You see, Will at least has issues and that is what ma..."THANK YOU! That's what I said.
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "How is Will immature? Yes, I agree, he is juvenile at some points but in others comes across as very realistic and emotionally involved. I also don't agree with him being unable to cope with the ev..."....... Will isn't compelling to me...... And I have explained in a lot of my comments why I feel Will is immature. And I agree that none of the characters are bland I think they can stand to be a tad more..... Interesting and fresh and original. The books plot luckily is strong enough to carry itself it is very interesting Will is not. And on that off topic convo OMG how are you team anybody Edwards semi abusive, Jacob is misguided, and Bella is a slap in the face to every strong female character in fiction. I guess Edward is the lesser of the three evils though haha ^_^
Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Flora wrote: "Emma wrote: "Belle2908 wrote: "Emma wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "At the first mentioning of a curse in book two, I immediately thought, Oh, no, if he never really ha..."You know at 18 you are considered a legal adult and while I don't expect him to be fully matured I do expect him to act like he has some common sense. He is simply nonsensical the character is not @ all based on real healthy teenage behaviors.... It just bugs the crap out of me. He bugs the crap out of me. And truth be told I don't want him with Tessa because then I would have to read about him even more not to mention all the other reasons I brought up.
Daylighter wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "@ Emma. (completely irrelevent to main topic:)And I agree with you that Stephanie Meyer is a great writer. In the first book, though, she used the word "incredulous" alo..."
Host is better than Twilight mostly because you don't want to kick the main character in the neck haha ^_^! Bella just...... Well you read the books
I will always be Team Edward and Team Emmet. Those books were the foundation of my love for reading. They really showed me that books were not dull like the other books my mom kept forcing on me:) And with th Host, the idea took me awhile to get used to although I really really don't like Jared. Go Ian!!! I can't wait for the sequel.
When I first read Twilight, she didn't bug me that much. But now I can see how she resembles Clary. In the movies, she's just so lifeless!!! And in the movies, Edward's too hard! (Ignore the pun).
And well, they don't nearly make Jacob as annoying as I find him.
Anyway, I agree with you on the Jem thing. The dude needs to experience some excitement...Yeah...dying defines that but still...Cassie needs to incorporate more feeling with him!
Of course. Can't you all see!!?? Cassie was trying to made Tessa end up with Will, thus she make Jem 'flat'.I really pity Jem. Really, I do.
@Charlotte: I agree. But Jem, well... Poor Jem. He do love Tessa right? And I think Tessa love Will more...
Ugh! Why is this turning out to be like Twilight!!?
Jem is Jacob, then! Will is Edward. Although Tessa is way better than Bella. :) And yeah, Jem loves Tessa but not in the same way...I don't think Jem really knows Tessa very well. Definitely not well enough to pop the question. I'm still sour at him for that.
Hmm... I disagree. Will is sooo much better than Edward, the sparkly vampire. :(I think Jem just want Tessa to be with him. Since Tessa is now alone in the world. (No Nate.)
Why Jem?? WHY!!??
I don't know! Jem needs to get with Sophie after Gideon dies (he does, they say it). It would make total sense!!!!! (And Edward ain't that bad. I love him. He's the first big fictional crush I ever had:)
But Sophie is... A MAID!!? Their child will be half-Nephilim. Which is sad. Who say it? I saw your comment anyway. :/Edward was awesome at first. But I don't like him more as I read the 3rd and 4th book. Very boring.
The Infernal Devices
Books mentioned in this topic
Clockwork Prince (other topics)City of Ashes (other topics)
Clockwork Prince (other topics)
True. But what about Jem? He's lose his life too. Since he drank Yin Fen, which kills him.
Nevertheless, I will just wait to see the endings. No point in argueing."
em on your side, no point with arguing about it. but for me its just that Wills character is totally natural for a teenager. pushing everyone away and blaming himself for all the tragedy that happens to him and then being nasty to everyone. The goodside about it is that after learning the truth we saw his other side by calmly accepting it and even the first one to congratulate Jem for his engagement with Tessa. Im just hoping the best for him on the coming book. but yeah, right now - Peace everyone!