Fans of Norah Lofts discussion
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That sounds like a fascinating place to visit! I'll have to look around on the internet too. Imagine, pink marble cliffs!
Peggy wrote: "That sounds like a fascinating place to visit! I'll have to look around on the internet too. Imagine, pink marble cliffs!"And , eventually pink marble bathrooms !
Princess Kate just admitted in an interview that her favorite author is Norah Lofts!April Fool! (but who knows - she has very good taste!)
Oh, phooey, Sylvia! For a second I believed it! <:(
" Sylvia wrote: "Mary, both of us being native West Virginians, I think we have both heard snide humor about incestuous or very close relationships "in the hills" but knowing human nature and the instinct to cover ..."Mary wrote Yes, and I'm actually touchy about that image, which I didn't even know about until I was an adult. Ironically (as you probably know), marriage between first cousins is illegal in our home state but legal in several surrounding ones. Of course, cousin marriage is fairly accepted among most Southerners, and NL also has a few examples"
This is a fascinating topic isn't it? I had no idea until fairly recently that many people in the US felt real horror at cousin marriage. It is of little or no significance in the UK or Australia, - *not common, but not at all held in abhorrencee . Kulcha is funny stuff ain't it!
* actually, having said that about not common, I have read that it is actually becoming very common indeed among immigrant communities, notably Pakistani people , who often send for a cousin from home to marry a son or daughter.
Barbara wrote: "" Sylvia wrote: "" Sylvia wrote: "Mary, both of us being native West Virginians, I think we have both heard snide humor about incestuous or very close relationships "in the hills" but knowing human nature and the instinct to cover ..."Mary wrote Yes, and I'm actually touchy about that image, which I didn't even know about until I was an adult."
We have the same problem in Norfolk (England)! Somehow or other, over the last few decades there has grown up a nasty joke that my home county (and NL's of course) is a hotbed of incest - much as the unfortunate Welsh are now labelled as having inappropriate feelings for sheep.
I can only suppose that television comedians invented these notions - possibly even the same one - but they have become very prevalent. I was always hearing 'jokes' about it when I was working and I'm afraid I would just look absolutely stony-faced and say "I don't know why you should say that".
I grew up in a part of Canada in which the feeling against cousin marriage is and was very strong, at least if first cousins were involved, and probably even for more distant ones, if they were close enough to trace the family connection easily. One of my first cousins once made a joke about how he'd like to date one of my sisters if it wasn't incest, and that's how it was considered, like dating a sibling. Oddly enough, given these views, cousin marriage wasn't illegal and wasn't even forbidden by most if not all of the local religious denominations. But I bet that if you asked most people of my generation they'd say it was disgusting, illegal, forbidden by their church, and resulted in sickly or deformed babies too. (The last probably also isn't true, unless the family had some kind of genetic problem to begin with. And to be fair, some local families were known to tend to have children with certain medical conditions.)
I always thought the forbidden first cousin relationship came from Old Testament teachings, so I got out my magnifying glass and read Leviticus 18. Many odd relationships are forbidden, but cousins of any degree are not mentioned. (Aunts and step-mothers were, re: sex, not marriage.)I believe medical science has determined that having a wide gene pool is best for best breeding results. One example I can personally give is that my grandfather and grandmother were both cross-eyed cousins, and all of their 5 living children were cross-eyed, my sister had a mild case, and in my old age I have developed the problem. Their eyes all looked crossed, but they saw straight. My eyes look straight, but I am visually cross-eyed. When I am reading a book, the left page is seen overtop and slightly tilted over the other page! That's partly why I read so slowly now. My Mom and Dad were both cousins, too. Mary, I'm sorry to say they were all West Virginians, but I still maintain that almost every state has examples.
Mary's comments about coincidences over in the NL Names thread has prompted me to ask what any of you think about the importance of coincidences.My husband and I have been experiencing multiples of 3 for about a year now, and we see them everywhere. When we look at a clock, it is usually something like 3:33 or 5:55. Our bank statements and checkbook ledger always contain multiples of 3. We seem to notice the car's mileage when there are 3 numbers the same. One morning this week I went out into our lobby to unlock the front doors, and there were 3 gray doves sleeping on the floor of the porch. When I pushed the lock, they were startled, but fluffed up and went right back to sleep, and at 8am, the sun was bright!
I keep looking for a hidden message in these multiples of 3, but if there is one, I am too dense to recognize it. I've heard of some sort of philosophy called, I think, Numerology, but I've no idea what it teaches. I know that numbers are significant in the Bible. ???
!
Yes, Sylvia, numbers are often significant in Biblical literature, for the symbolic value the writers and original readers saw in them. (For instance, seven is the number of perfection or completion; twelve has an association with the idea of "twelve tribes of Israel.") But outside of a literary context where a writer is clearly using symbolism to make a point, I'm personally inclined to see recurring sets of numbers that seem to manifest in daily life as being just coincidental, rather than as carrying a hidden message. That's just my opinion, though!
That is actually very comforting, Werner, because I've never found any significance in all these 3's!Sometimes I think a coincidence can make one feel like the world and life in general is more inter-related than we think, and maybe not quite so big, like for instance when we discover that someone we know is related to someone else we know and had no idea of an inter-connection. I heard years ago that every person is just five acquaintances away from another person to whom we are mutually connected. (Something like that!) I could never explain it, but kind of understand it.
Sylvia, just beware of 666! (I'm getting ready to a presaentation on Revelation for my EFM class next week. Another coincidence?)
Wow, Mary, we're being spooked by coincidences! I do particularly notice when 666 pops up, and usually say a prayer!!!I also thought about you earlier today when I was looking up some history on the Wheeling Jamboree. Did you ever go? I only went to that theater one time, when the Kingston Trio was performing there.
When not seeing too clearly, one tends to "watch more" and "read less." I watched a YouTube video about the making of the movie GWTW, and wrote down the following to share with you, since we do bring up GWTW once in a while. Very interesting now, the salaries paid to the stars of this movie which premiered in 1939:Clark Gable (Rhett) - $117,917
Leslie Howard (Ashley) - $76,250
Vivian Leigh (Scarlett) - $30,851
Olivia de Havilland (Melanie) - $25,375
Hattie McDaniels (Mammy) - $6,459
Sylvia, that is interesting! Generally speaking, the 1939 pay scales are more reasonable overall than today's obscene salaries for movie stars --and would, averaged out, be a pretty decent wage for roughly a years work even today, compared to what most of us make even with graduate degrees. If the movie industry would stand up to the Screen Actor's Guild and pare the pay scales back to that level, theaters wouldn't be pricing themselves out of the entertainment market.Looked at closely and considered from another angle, though, the figures don't reflect as well on 1939 U.S. mores. There's a huge disparity between what was paid to male and female stars, and an even greater one between white and black actresses. At least today, there isn't the same degree of gender and race discrimination in pay scales that there was then (so actresses, and non-white thespians, get to be equal-opportunity bandits!).
I think today's salaries for sports celebrities are obscene, too, but I am glad you pointed out that these were approx. a year's wages. I would estimate that it was the 80s before black artists received the equal pay and respect they deserved. Great performers like Oprah Winfrey and Bill Cosby were beloved by all races. (Good one - "equal opportunity bandits!") Olivia de H. is 98 and lives in Paris. Her sister, Joan Fontaine, died just last December (2013).
Sylvia wrote: "When not seeing too clearly, one tends to "watch more" and "read less." I watched a YouTube video about the making of the movie GWTW, and wrote down the following to share with you, since we do br..."Almost unbelievable the disparity between Leslie Howard and Vivian Leigh isn't it, given the size of the roles involved ! I know he was an established star of course and she was an unknown , but goodness!
( or as Mae West said " Goodness had nuthin' to do with it honey" )
I ran across an interesting tidbit - that Vivian Leigh became close friends with the Gables and with Olivia, but she did not like Leslie Howard. It must have been so hard to play those love scenes with him. Vivian was bi-polar and had chronic tuberculosis, which killed her when she was, I think, 53. But she was a true Lady, married to Sir Lawrence Olivier for 20 years!
And he said of that marriage that it was an experience of Heaven and Hell. Heaven until she was ill.
He may have also been referring to her bi-polar changes. I read somewhere about the first time he saw her abrupt change and her screaming, and I believe it happened right before a stage performance, but she managed to get through it.
Sylvia wrote: "He may have also been referring to her bi-polar changes. I read somewhere about the first time he saw her abrupt change and her screaming, and I believe it happened right before a stage performan..."Yes he was. They loved each other greatly but of course her illness (and imagine the treatments, or lack thereof, in those days) , was awful to bear .
Hello all Lofties! I have two chit-chat subjects to proffer. One regards recent news about King Richard III's DNA on the paternal side. It seems that his maternal side is intact (known?), but somewhere in his family's royal history, a mother perhaps got away with an affair that could call the royal lines into question. I think it is wonderfully amazing that this king's remains continue to cause such a stir 500+ years after his heroic death.Fun Gift Idea - My niece was given an unusual gift, which might be something some Lofties would love. Her MIL presented her with papers proving her new ownership in one square foot of land on the Dunans Castle property in Argyll, Scotland, which entitles her to the use of the title of Lady (or Laird if a man) and special privileges if visiting her parcel, such as a photo on her square, fishing and hunting privileges, tours, and use of the official tartan of Dunans! Isn't that great fun? The title is not officially recognized by the Scottish Land Register. It is a fund raising project to restore the 400+ year old castle, which was gutted by fire in 2001. I believe there are 5 levels of royal privilege, and I think her gift, which came with a video and much info in a collectible tin, cost $30. When she brought her gift along on a holiday visit, she wore a "jeweled" tiara and expected the proper respect entitled to a Lady.
If interested in helping this castle, there is info on Facebook (www.facebook.com/pages/Dunans-Castle) and their site is (scottishlaird.com/?page_id=26) or you can just look up: Scottish Laird Project - Charitable Trust (founded 2007)
For more information on the news about Richard III's DNA, check out the BBC feature at: www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-... .Thanks for sharing the links on Dunans Castle, Sylvia! I checked out the site, and it has a really imposing picture of the castle (which was at one time the home of the Procurator-Fiscal of Scotland).
I'm afraid this 'Laird' and 'Lady' business is a bit of a racket! There are several companies doing this sort of thing, and the word 'laird' in Scotland does indeed mean 'landowner' but it's not a title and doesn't mean the same as 'lord' - otherwise everyone who owns their own home in Scotland would be calling themselves 'Laird this' or 'Lady that'.'Laird' is really more equivalent to 'squire' - the principal landowner of a district.
If anyone is a "Keeping Up with Appearances" fan, wouldn't Hyacinth have loved the chance to be a Lady!
Jenny wrote: "I'm afraid this 'Laird' and 'Lady' business is a bit of a racket! There are several companies doing this sort of thing, and the word 'laird' in Scotland does indeed mean 'landowner' but it's not a ..."Yes very true. I do hope nobody is silly enough to think they really have bought a title this way . But as Sylvia says, a fun way to raise money for the building project !
I dunno about Hyacinth Peggy, tho she would have LOVED to be "Lady" I think she would rather have made it happen via obscure but real genealogy .Even via illegitimacy , I mean imagine if hers was the ancestor who also fathered the ancestor who was regrettably NOT the real ancestor of Richard lll...
Now Rose would be a different matter! ( and maybe the sister with 'room for a pony'...)
Thanks for the link to the news on Richard III, Werner. It is amazing what info can be drawn from old DNA. There is a lot of new info that has come to light as far back as the pharaohs, and we can see DNA results weekly in the US on PBS via "Finding Your Roots". The people studied who consent to DNA testing find out what percentage of their distant ancestors came from the various continents and races.The Dunans Castle fund raiser is very clear about donors not having a recognized title. They don't call their plan a "racket" but they do call it a "scheme" which should warn any investors that it is all in fun and is meant to be a charitable donation. However, those who do become "Lairds or Ladies" do have special privileges at the castle and grounds at certain times of the year.
Very funny, Pegs! Hyacinth would play her Ladyship position to such distraction that Richard would finally ship her to Scotland with instructions to toss her in the dungeon and toss the key into the sea!
Werner, what do you suppose a Procurator-Fiscal did? Sounds like a tax collector to me! By the way, I read that one wing of Dunans Castle was spared, and I believe someone lives in it.
I continue to read a book about castles and abbeys of Ireland and Great Britain, and the vast majority are in ruins, but a few have been restored, though even the ruins are treasured and now protected.
Hi Barbara! We must have been posting at the same time. Yes, it's true that Hyacinth would prefer the real ancestry, but if her embarrassing family members are going to be the proof in this pudding, I would prefer that Onslo be the royal carrier!
Sylvia wrote: "Werner, what do you suppose a Procurator Fiscal did? Sounds like a tax collector to me!"Sylvia, that's what I thought, too! As it turns out, however, they're actually public prosecutors, with very little to do with fiscal matters at all. They present cases for criminal prosecution in Scots courts (the title is unique to Scotland), and also investigate suspicious deaths, much like coroners in the U.S. would. Apparently they have different ranks of jurisdiction --local, like the one in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander, or national, like the one who lived at Dunans Castle. For more information, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procurator_fiscal .
The BC library has a copy of Keeping Up Appearances: Hyacinth Bucket's Book of Etiquette for the Socially Less Fortunate (donated by a former director who was quite an Anglophile). I've never read it, but I'm sure it would be a hoot! :-)
I'd like to go to one of Hyacinth's Candelight Suppers. I'd be careful not to brush against her walls . . . I'd admire the Royal Doulton with the handpainted periwinkles . . . I never get tired of watching the reruns!
Sylvia wrote: "Hi Barbara! We must have been posting at the same time. Yes, it's true that Hyacinth would prefer the real ancestry, but if her embarrassing family members are going to be the proof in this puddi..."Good One, Sylvia! Your Onslo remark actually got a laugh from my notoriously dour husband!
Karyl, if anyone asked Onslo about the possibility of his blood being royal, he would probably say, "Probably."
Sylvia wrote: "Karyl, if anyone asked Onslo about the possibility of his blood being royal, he would probably say, "Probably.""Love it.
I love that some of you are also Hyacinth fans :D I cannot express how much I love that show. Poor Richard, Emmett and Onslo.... This is why I love this group. Hey Werner, thanks for the head's up on the Hyacinth book!! Now adding to my wish list. Rock on, y'all
Hope you enjoy the book, Cindy! Glad I could let you about it.
The Richard III research just gets more amazing all the time. I used to live in Leicester working in a related field so I have friends involved - one is an archaeological conservator and she's been involved in the designs for the new tomb in the cathedral, to make sure it's an appropriate environment to keep the bones in. I would love to know more details of the possibilities of illegitimacy. I wonder if they'll ever pin down the affair more closely.
Katharine wrote: "The Richard III research just gets more amazing all the time. I used to live in Leicester working in a related field so I have friends involved - one is an archaeological conservator and she's been..."I think maybe not as all they can say really is that at some point between John of Gaunt and Richard 111 someone's wife/queen conceived a baby not her husband's . Be fun to know which one though !
I just wanted my dear Norah Lofts group to know that my generous loving brother sent me an iPhone 5c for Christmas - so I can enjoy you all so much more
Cindy wrote: "I just wanted my dear Norah Lofts group to know that my generous loving brother sent me an iPhone 5c for Christmas - so I can enjoy you all so much more "How lovely!
Re Richard 3rd, I have just seen a documentary where a young man with the exact same form of scoliosis as Richard, took part in an elaborate experiment designed to see if a person so disabled could fight on horseback, in medieval armour with a sword. I won't tell you the outcome in case you haven't seen it and want to, but it is amazing . And the young man was so brave! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tv....
That truly was amazing! It gave me cold chills. Thanks for sharing this, Barbara.
Barbara wrote: "Re Richard 3rd, I have just seen a documentary where a young man with the exact same form of scoliosis as Richard, took part in an elaborate experiment designed to see if a person so disabled cou..."I saw that same program in the last month or so on our Public Broadcasting Station. It was remarkable.
Excuse duplicate post, I wasn't sure where to put this: I'd just like to mention that I expect to be in Bury St Edmunds this Saturday (25th April 2015) so if there's anything anybody would like me to go and take a photo of or anything, do say!
Ooh, anything Jenny , that's remotely NL ish!
Photos of buildings have been posted!I found the Grammar School (ie the one the boys went to, not the Female Academy), where the monks' old vineyard was, the site of St Edmund's tomb, a house with pargeting in a Zodiac design, and a blocked-up gateway that I think linked the One Bull with the abbey grounds, though not anywhere near the aforesaid tomb.
If There are any other interested Kindle owners out there, The Lost Queen
is now available in Kindle format. :)
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Fans of Norah Lofts
Books mentioned in this topic
The Leopard's Prey (other topics)Follow the River (other topics)
The Lost Queen (other topics)
Keeping Up Appearances: Hyacinth Bucket's Book of Etiquette for the Socially Less Fortunate (other topics)
This sun of York;: A biography of Edward IV (other topics)
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There are two pink marble quarries (no longer working) that may be toured in Knoxville, TN (USA). Ijams Nature Park has been developed around them, and there are many trails, including one that seems to be along a lake and pink marble cliffs. Sounds like a lovely spot for a vacation! (Mead's Quarry & Ross Marble Quarry)