The Sword and Laser discussion
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TWG: Foreign word use in the book
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I have no problem with it, but I've always liked books where characters slip into Latin or Greek as though it's the most natural thing in the world and anyone with a brain should know what they're talking about. "Well, it's like Catullus said, 'Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.' Ah, they knew how to party in those days." I think I picked it up from reading Umberto Eco at an impressionable age.
At first I felt it put me more in Lake's head as I struggled with the language just like he was. It helped to set the feel of the world from Lake's perspective, odd and difficult to make sense of. After about 50 pages, I had figured out most of it and didn't really pay attention to it anymore. And now I can call people who cut me off in parking lots stupid farang and leave them perplexed enough not to chase me!
I am listening to the audio book and I find it distracting. I am used to it at this point, but I think not seeing the foreign words makes it more difficult to deal with. Sometimes I find myself thinking, what were they saying there?
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I think this technique can work to give a world a certain flavor, and to impress on you a sense of a truly different culture mingling with something you're more familiar with.
But an author can overestimate how much can be absorbed this way -- Gene Wolfe has said that all the abandoned (ie real, but fallen into disuse) English words he uses in his Book of New Sun series are words that should make sense to most readers because of the latin roots the words share with more common English words. But I found 'cheating' by using the New Sun lexicon a fan published was a much more enriching way to appreciate the books!
The mingling of familiar and alien words also comes into play with totally made-up words in fantasy and science fiction works. Take Anathem -- it really throws you into the deep-end of its own terminology from the get-go, but there's also the saving grace of the friendly glossary tucked away in the back. Some of the time I really enjoyed trying to puzzle out for myself what the words meant and how they fit the world -- other times I thanked the heavens (or Stephenson) for that glossary.
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Exactly! I appreciated having the option of a glossary, at least.
I actually find the use of foreign words enjoyable, both real and made up linguistics. Stephenson's work on Anathem pales in comparison to what Tolkien did. Yes, it took me a while to puzzle out some of the references in Anathem, but I really found that part of the fun, glossary or not.When you look at the future settings of this and other books, it seems to me that factoring in the adaptation of languages for that setting, or period, is a great creative tool for the author. It helps to paint the scene and fill in the cultural context. I am currently reading "Man in the High Castle" and the words and sentence structure Dick uses is almost more of a challenge then even a newer book like Anathem, but sets the tone very well.
I really dislike it. But when there is a glossary you can at least stop trying to guess what the word is. Without it it is very annoying and really takes me out of the book. It bothered me in Anathem also. I don't mind the occasional foreign word and sort of enjoy learning a new word. But they use it so much that it is driving me up the wall. But I do like the story so far so I'm dealing with it.
I would like to point to Firefly and the use of the chinese in the show. It was great and made the world feel more alive to me. I compare what Bacigalupi was doing in WG to that. Just adding a little spice to the stew of his world.
I speak a little Mandarin - most of the Chinese used by Hock Seng was mild profanity.
Veronica wrote: It really takes me out of the story to suddenly be like... "OK, now, what do I suppose that word means?" I'm assuming that farang in Thai means the a similar thing as gaijin in Japanese, but I only figured that out after about 50 pages.Farang is similar to gaijin but not quite. The latter would refer to all non-Japanese people while the former is generally used to refer to Westerners, especially Caucasians. It is kind of derogatory and would not be used in polite conversation with a Westerner.
Farang also classifies the way Thais would treat you in general, as opposed to their Asian neighbors. Western thinking is perceived to be more confrontational and Thais don't really like it. It can really stress them out. Think of the stereotype ugly American. I think a lot has to do with the fact that 95 percent of Thai population is Buddhist. This is a generalization, of course.
Recent events in Bangkok between the "Yellow Shirts" backed government and the protesting "Red Shirts" resulted in the deaths of 21 people, including 4 soldiers. Many more were reported injured as the Thai army tried to break up the protesters, who, fought back. The army aborted the operation and pulled back. It has become a source of embarrassment for the sitting government. Even the Songkran (the Thai New Year) official events that were to take place this week in Bangkok have been cancelled.
One word I wasn't used to seeing was ngaw as I usually see it spelled as ngoh, which is the Thai word for rambutan - literally, hairy in Malay. I did recognize what it was by the description though. Then again, Thai translations can be difficult at times, as there will be several ways to spell a word when it is romanized.
I was also going to comment as Rick (message 9) that like in Firefly you didn't really need to know what Mal and his crew were swearing in Mandarin. The fact that they did was already amusing and it added a lot of flavor to the series.
I think a glossary is necessary if the languages are made up such as Tolkien's or in a novel like Herbert's Dune.
Interesting discussion. I speak fluent Russian and I thought that that fact spoiled my enjoyment of a Clockwork Orange to some extent. I would imagine that most English speakers who read that novel know no Russian at all, and that's kind of the point. The language used by the 'nadsats' (a Russian derivative of the word meaning 'teens') used their own language. It wasn't exactly Russian vocabulary they were using, but it was so close that it was no trouble for a Russian speaker to understand the meaning. I've not read the book under discussion here, but I thought it interesting to offer up a Clockwork Orange as a novel that was deliberately written to be incomprehensible at first, but whose vocabulary was learned by the reader as the book progressed.
And Veronica, whom I enjoy listening to on TWiT very much, beware of difference between their and they're!
It's one thing to have a literary tradition, where you had Russian or German novels throwing in one or two French or Latin sentences, assuming the readers of these novels are a pretty distinct, small crowd. It is a completely different thing to do this excessively like - for example - Cormack McCarthy? Even if it's Spanish (a widely spoken language, even Dubya understands?) and essential to the novel. It is not translated in some versions - even some of his 'translated' books leave the Spanish untouched and untranslated/~annotated.
In the Age of Internet, I don't mind it as much as I used to. I am used to reading difficult novels that presumably were written in English, but the dictionaries could not help me with some Pynchon and David Foster Wallace 'wordsmithing'.
If it is annoying and there is no translation/annotation (editors are too expensive these days?) than it is a bad thing. Would you not agree?
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Haha... oops. I know the difference, sometimes my fingers just type too fast for me.
And if any of you have not had a rambutan get to your nearest asian market and pick some up - they are weird and wonderful! Absolutely delicious. My kids even love them!
Kevin wrote: "And if any of you have not had a rambutan get to your nearest asian market and pick some up - they are weird and wonderful! Absolutely delicious. My kids even love them!"I used to live in Indonesia when I was a kid. We ate rambutan on occasion. Looks like an alien fruit, but does taste good.
Wow, I completely did not even think about this subject, having grown up in South East Asia. I recognized all the 'foreign' words used and since it never presented a problem for me, never thought twice of it. Also, totally knew that the fruit Anderson was describing was rambutan, which made the book more interesting for me.
Veronica wrote: "Why do you think authors do this? "I think perhaps they are intentionally making the book esoteric. Once a reader understands foreign words/new concepts and are initiated into the world of the book they become more engaged by it. It also helps make the book more escapist or immersing.
I listened to the audio book and I loved the use of foreign word. Other than the pronunciation factor (which isn't an issue in audio books), I don't mind the use of non-English words in books. It adds flavor and you can usually guess at the meaning within context. If a particular word or phrase is used frequently enough, you can even get a pretty good idea of the actual meaning.
I know I'm late to the game on this book, but one of my favorite things about it is the mix of languages. Language is culture, and culture is such an important piece of world-building in science fiction. Imagine if Jabba the Hut started yapping away in english. Would we believe that there is a Hutt culture?
I haven't read this book but I've been fascinated by others who both know enough and are confident enough to use languages dexterously. If we get it, that's great. If we don't, we at least get the part of the setting that is not our own. Did any of you like the TV series and movie Serenity? The language there was partly English with most of the swear words in Chinese. I really liked the thoughtfulness of that. The cast all said they had to spend a ton of time learning the correct pronunciations. Lucasfilms (I think it was him) was so sure that in the future language would change. I'm sure of it too. It changes every day, and we hardly notice.
I'm listening to this on audio right now and am enjoying the mix of languages. When you're traveling in a different culture you have a do a lot of figuring things out from context. As I listen to the book, I appreciate having the same sort of experience of finding my way around. It makes "traveling through" The Windup Girl's world a more authentic experience than some other books I've read. I feel this is esp. true since in audiobook form, since I'm picking the language up as spoken word.To be fair to the discussion, I've been in Thailand so I already knew most of the Thai words and customs that he uses in the book. But the Japanese, and if I remember right a little bit of Chinese, is completely unfamiliar to me. I've enjoyed deciphering it from context.
Hi Welwyn just wanted to respond to your post re: Serenity. The TV Show was called Firefly premiered on Fox in 02. It was the third show created by Joss Whedon, a great writer who created Buffy and Angel. I agree, his concept of language was one of the most interesting thing about his world. Its a great example of gutless moron network execs killing something brilliant they didnt understand, then the fans brought it back for a fairly successful film. The networks first clever idea was to scratch the two hour pilot that actually explained things two weeks before the show was to premiere, and they only got cleverer and cleverer. Anyway just taking advantage of a chance to point out the brilliance of all things Whedon (even Alien 4), and the crumminess of Fox
Totally agree, Halbot42. Thanks for reminding me that the show's name and the movie's were different. I have issues with Fox, too. As for Whedon, I watched all but the last season of Buffy (waiting for a rainy day) and all of Angel. I loved them all, (except for the *crazy* way Fox wanted Cordelia treated in the second last season - I assume it was Fox, not Whedon). I didn't know Whedon did Alien 4! But the language thing was brilliant, regardless.
OK, yes, I know that sometimes there are no direct translations, and I know that it's supposed to make it more authentic, perhaps. But for example... when two Thai people are speaking to each other (I'm assuming their already speaking their native tongue, and thus "translated" in a sense for the English reader) why suddenly throw in a Thai word?
It really takes me out of the story to suddenly be like... "OK, now, what do I suppose that word means?" I'm assuming that farang in Thai means the a similar thing as gaijin in Japanese, but I only figured that out after about 50 pages.
Why do you think authors do this?