Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for our Next Major Read, part 3
Ah yes, I forgot about the Western Canon.
The poll for the next major read has now been put up. It will be open through July 14.Please go there to vote. I am not sending a notice to the full group because I prefer to have those who are visiting the board regularly be those who choose the book. Those who stop by less frequently are of course welcome to join any discussion, but I prefer that the books be chosen by the "regulars."
If there is a clear winner, that will be our next book. If there are two or more near the top, we'll have a run-off.
And remember, if you have voted and find that your choice is obviously not going to make it, you can go in and change your vote to another book which is your second choice but has a better chance of being chosen. Or, as you read comments, you may just decide that you no longer like your first choice best. Whatever. The point being that changing votes is perfectly acceptable; the point is to get the book that will arouse the greatest interest in being read and discussed.
BTW, I forgot to mark this latest poll as Featured, so you have to scroll down a few older polls to get to it. But be sure to find it and vote!
Lots of Russians featured in the Next Big Read poll :) Thanks. I would love to re-read some of them :)
Alina wrote: "Lots of Russians featured in the Next Big Read poll :) Thanks. I would love to re-read some of them :)"
I think you may have been looking at the wrong poll. I messed up by not marking this poll "Featured," so it didn't show up at the top of the poll list. You have to go down to the fourth (I think) poll on the list, where the Oresteia is the first selection.
There doesn't seem to be any way to correct this "Featured" issue after the fact. Sorry!
If you haven't voted in the next-book-poll yet, time's running out! Looks at the moment like we'll having a run-off, but I'll wait until the voting's over to see finally.
Run-off election time!None of our selections for the next major read ran away with the victory, and we didn't have two clear winners (in which case I would have had us read those two in sequence), so it's time for a run-off poll between the two two vote getters, Tristram Shandy and the Oresteia.
The run-off poll is now up and will be open through July 20. Vote for your choice!
OK you've convinced me Everyman, I'll switch ships:) Although I would have liked some lighter reading before we embarked on the Greek tragedies AND I've got a copy of Tristram, whereas pension funds will have to be used to buy Oresteia:(. Which edition are you using? I fancy the translation by our former Poet Laureate, Ted Hughes.
MadgeUK wrote: "OK you've convinced me Everyman, I'll switch ships:) "Don't switch ships on my account! Though I wouldn't call Tristram exactly light reading -- are you familiar with it?
If -- and I certainly don't want to assume how the voting will go -- the group chooses the Oresteia, I'll probably start with the Lattimore translation, since I find that Lattimore is generally an excellent combination of accurate translation and poetic integrity. If I feel the need to go beyond that, I'll probably get the Loeb Classical edition with the Greek and English on facing pages; these translations tend to be the most literal ones available since they are used to assist Greek students in learning to translate, so they tend stick as closely to the original as possible. However, they often are more challenging to read in English since there is no real attempt to make them flow poetically.
I am less enamored of the Ted Hughes "translation," since like many of his Greek translations it's more an interpretation than a translation. He doesn't see his job as translating what Aeschylus wrote, but more as writing a Ted Hughes poem based on the original -- one review called it an adaptation infused with modern ideas and idioms.
Some people like this approach because they find that it makes the work more accessible and modern. I personally prefer translators who see their job more as giving something as close to the Greek in English as possible. Just a matter of taste and approach to the classics.
Does this mean I can't use the Vellacott translation in Penguin Classics?
Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "OK you've convinced me Everyman, I'll switch ships:) "Don't switch ships on my account! Though I wouldn't call Tristram exactly light reading -- are you familiar with it?
If ..."
Yes I am familiar with Tristram S. It isn't a particuilarly easy read but the humour is very good when you get on Sterne's wavelength, and the illustrations are a delight.
It is true what you say about Hughes but his translation will add another quirky English p.o.v.:) I will probably get the Lattimore as well, if I can find a cheap one.
Just ordered a copy of the Lattimore "Oresteia", hoping to jump back into the group for the first time since the first half of Anna Karenina. Even if the other book is chosen, how can I lose by owning this book? And I'd be happy to read Tristram, too, if that is picked; unlike AK, Mm, and PL, these two are books I haven't read before and would love to be prodded to do so.
Just to jump into the Newton discussion...he had fleshed out Calculus by the time he wrote PRINCIPIA but chose to use obscure proofs from Euclidean Geometry because he didn't know if he wanted to show the study of 'fluxons' to the world. Leibniz therefor gets co-credit for calculus, and got HIS naming and notational convention used
David wrote: "Does this mean I can't use the Vellacott translation in Penguin Classics?"You can absolutely use any translation you want to. Sometimes very interesting discussions arise from the sometimes subtle differences in how different translators have approached different passages, so there can be some value in different people reading different translations.
M wrote: "Just ordered a copy of the Lattimore "Oresteia", hoping to jump back into the group for the first time since the first half of Anna Karenina. Even if the other book is chosen, how can I lose by own..."Welcome back! Either choice would make for an interesting discussion. We can't lose!
Tom wrote: "Just to jump into the Newton discussion...he had fleshed out Calculus by the time he wrote PRINCIPIA but chose to use obscure proofs from Euclidean Geometry because he didn't know if he wanted to s..."There was a lot of stuff going on about scientific development back then, particularly since there were no copyright laws so anybody could freely borrow anybody else's ideas without attribution.
The Oresteia is the winner of the run-off poll, and will be our next major read.I'm thinking that two weeks per play (six weeks total for the trilogy) would be about right. Does this sound good to people? Or do these plays deserve three weeks each?
The plays are relatively short compared with the works we've been reading up to now, but they're packed with some very fascinating stuff. And we'll want to talk a bit, I'm sure, about the nature and development of Greek theater and how it fit into Greek culture, as well as the legend of the house of Atreus. We may also want to talk about the difference between the concept of tragedy for the Greek drama, for Shakespeare, and today. Lots of meat for us to enjoy chewing on! (Or eggplant casserole, for our vegetarian members.)
David, I own the Penguin Classics version as well, so you will have company.Everyman, I should think six weeks would be (more than) sufficient given the length of the plays.
That being said, I need to go finish up my Henry James!
I notice that the Vellacott transaltion was commissioned in the 1950's by the BBC for transmission on radio. Given that the BBC, here in the UK, is continually coming under fire from the elements of conservatism, I think it is quite wonderful for a public service broadcaster to have commissioned such a translation and is entirely consistent what I would hope from public service broadcasting.
For those not wanting to purchase the book or wishing to copy and paste extracts later, there is an online link to Oresteia:-http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/aesch...
MadgeUK wrote: "For those not wanting to purchase the book or wishing to copy and paste extracts later, there is an online link to Oresteia:-http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/aesch... "
that link didn't work for me. This one did
http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/aesch...
He also has a lecture on Agamemnon and background on the House of Atreus.
While I really appreciate Ian Johnson making his translations of many Greek works available on the web, I personally consider his translations adequate but not excellent. But that's just a personal opinion, FWIW.
I have a full cast audio performance of the Oresteia in MP3 format (Blackstone Audio; 29 tracks) that I'd be happy to share with anyone who is interested. It is an adaptation of Ian Johnson's translation, so take that for what it's worth. If nothing else, it is at least mildly entertaining.Just message me if you want it (and have the capacity to exchange large files; ~192MB).
Sorry if this is a silly question, but we are reading all three plays, correct? The version I'm about to order has "Agamemnon," "The Libation Bearers," and "The Eumenides;" is that correct?I think I'll be ordering the Fagles translation (Penguin Classics) unless someone says that isn't worth the money. I believe it was Fagles' version of The Iliad that I read many moons ago and rather liked...
Tony wrote: "This is my first post to this group. I joined a little while ago, but decided to wait for the next book selection to participate.I'll be using the translation of The Oresteia by Fagles, also a P..."
We'll be delighted to have you with us!
Paula wrote: "Sorry if this is a silly question, but we are reading all three plays, correct? The version I'm about to order has "Agamemnon," "The Libation Bearers," and "The Eumenides;" is that correct?."Not a silly question at all. Yes, we'll be reading all three plays, probably spending two weeks on each, though I could be talked into three weeks each if people want -- there's lots of meat here, but there are also many other great books to get to!
Greek drama was normally performed in a cycle of three tragedies followed by a satyr play, all by the same author, performed in sequence -- presumably with intermissions between them for the usual intermission purposes. We have a number of individual plays from various trilogies of tragedies, but the Oresteia is the only complete three-play sequence that we have (sadly we don't have the satyr play that went with them). But for this reason, the Oresteia (the name derives from Orestes (the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra) who is the major figure in the cycle) is particularly cherished.
Looks like I'll be probably be reading the Fagles translation, too, since the seller cancelled my order of the Lattimore one and I've now ordered this version. Glad to see at least 2 others will be using this version.
Thanks for the background info, Everyman. I haven't read or thought about Greek tragedy since high school, which was eons ago; it'll be fun to be a real newbie to it all.
Thanks for the background info, Everyman. I haven't read or thought about Greek tragedy since high school, which was eons ago; it'll be fun to be a real newbie to it all.
Wow, I've been gone for a while, working on a little research project, and am excited to see the next read is one I can actually get read in time and join the discussion!
Andrea wrote: "Wow, I've been gone for a while, working on a little research project, and am excited to see the next read is one I can actually get read in time and join the discussion!"It'll be great to have you back.
I decided to try a modern translation of the Oresteia, and settled on the Peter Meineck translation.I'm not sure about it. It reads more easily than Lattimore, but it lacks the gravitas that I prefer in my translations from the Greek. My understanding is that the Greek tragedians used language that was a bit more formal than colloquial; these were, after all, religious festivals.
From what I have read so far, Meineck doesn't take too many liberties with the content of the play, but his language is more casual, in some places almost hip, than I like. But for those coming to the play and Greek tragedy for the first time, this could be a good thing. So for the time being, I'm ambivalent about this translation.
But I must say that having gone back to the Lattimore, I think its complexity, while perhaps truer to the style of the original, may require a bit more effort for some readers. I wish I had the money to buy a couple more translations to try, but it's hard to justify keeping on buying copy after copy of the same work.
Sigh.
Everyman wrote: "I decided to try a modern translation of the Oresteia, and settled on the Peter Meineck translation.I'm not sure about it. It reads more easily than Lattimore, but it lacks the gravitas that I pr..."
I just don't see how you can go wrong with Lattimore. I spent a few hours last week translating a short passage from Euripides' Alcestis, comparing my very shaky translation against Lattimore's, and once again I'm blown away by how well he captures the subtleties of the Greek in idiomatic English. That's not easy to do. He may not be as "poetic" as other translators, but his translations are, in my (admittedly amateur) estimation, very trustworthy.
You're still using your Greek, Thomas? Mine has long since abandoned me!(For those not understanding this, Thomas and I are both graduates of St. John's College, where two years of classical Greek are a mandatory part of the curriculum.)
I couldn't resist another Greek play!
Should be interesting with so many different translations.
I read Fagles' Agamemnon some years back and I enjoyed it tremendously. But I didn't have the complete trilogy. I ordered a Hugh Lloyd-Jones translation on the basis of his numerous footnotes.
Lloyd-Jones in his introduction speaks well of the translations of Lattimore and Fagles, and describes his own translation as neither poetic or literary. Says he's trying "to render the sense faithfully and to reproduce the impact made by the idiom of the original".
Always a tough decision on translations. I hope people post some of the lines they love so that we can see how variously they've been written into English.
Looking forward to September.
Oh, yes. Thanks for the link for the background info. I love background info.
Should be interesting with so many different translations.
I read Fagles' Agamemnon some years back and I enjoyed it tremendously. But I didn't have the complete trilogy. I ordered a Hugh Lloyd-Jones translation on the basis of his numerous footnotes.
Lloyd-Jones in his introduction speaks well of the translations of Lattimore and Fagles, and describes his own translation as neither poetic or literary. Says he's trying "to render the sense faithfully and to reproduce the impact made by the idiom of the original".
Always a tough decision on translations. I hope people post some of the lines they love so that we can see how variously they've been written into English.
Looking forward to September.
Oh, yes. Thanks for the link for the background info. I love background info.
When are we planning on starting this fun little venture?
I have Latimore so that's what I will be readng. This will be my second reading and I hope to get more from it with all the group input!
I have two versions, the Lattimore and the Shapiro & Burian—one for accuracy, one for my poetic ear.
Everyman wrote: "You're still using your Greek, Thomas? Mine has long since abandoned me!(For those not understanding this, Thomas and I are both graduates of St. John's College, where two years of classical Gre..."
Mine was pretty much gone as well until I started brushing up with the JACT Reading Greek books about a year ago. I'm enjoying it much more the second time around, though it hasn't gotten any easier. I wish I had more time for it.
Lori wrote: "When are we planning on starting this fun little venture?"Paradise Lost goes through August 31.
Then we will have an interim read, most likely two weeks, though I haven't finally settled on the choice so it might be a three weeker. But probably the Oristeia will start on September 15, or if not that the September 22. We'll spend six weeks on the Oresteia, two weeks on each play.
I know you're looking for something of a "palate cleanser" after PL, but there have been some interestingly truncated discussions that might make Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" a thought provoking exercise for an interim read. We could all swear to behave ourselves...
That sounds interesting Kate. I can't promise to behave myself though. ;)
Dianna wrote: "That sounds interesing Kate. I can't promise to behave myself though. ;)"
I actually meant to post this under the interim reads thread. I am obviously trying to do too many things at the same time.
I actually meant to post this under the interim reads thread. I am obviously trying to do too many things at the same time.
Kate wrote: "I know you're looking for something of a "palate cleanser" after PL, but there have been some interestingly truncated discussions that might make Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" a thought provoking exercise for an interim read. We could all swear to behave ourselves"I'm not sure I'm ready to moderate another discussion on quite such volatile issues quite so soon!
But in addition, in a quick look I didn't find a full text of the work available on the Internet. That's one of the requirements for an Interim read.
From one who has been struggling with Fear and Trembling for . . . well, too long, I can attest that it's not really an easy read . . .
S. Rosemary wrote: "From one who has been struggling with Fear and Trembling for . . . well, too long, I can attest that it's not really an easy read . . ."
LOL. Maybe not. But it fits in with some of the discussions that have spun off of PL. I can see why Everyman would be leery about moderating it, though. :D
LOL. Maybe not. But it fits in with some of the discussions that have spun off of PL. I can see why Everyman would be leery about moderating it, though. :D
Everyman wrote: "Lori wrote: "When are we planning on starting this fun little venture?"Paradise Lost goes through August 31.
Then we will have an interim read, most likely two weeks, though I haven't finally se..."
Thanks. Keep me posted. I'd love to join in on Oresteia. I will probably join in the interim read...unless it's Conrad.
I doubt it will be Conrad but even if it is you might just give it a try. I did NOT want to read Paradise Lost and I have found the group reading to be most enjoyable. You may be surprised :)
Lori wrote: "I will probably join in the interim read...unless it's Conrad. "It's not Conrad. So I'll hope to see you for it!
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides (other topics)The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides (other topics)
That might be a good supplement to Newton or for self-education, but as a stand alone read for the group, it seems out of the mainstream of the Western Canon.