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Planning for our Next Major Read, part 3
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Grace Tjan
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Apr 18, 2010 08:34PM
Sorry to hear about it, Laurele. Hopefully things will get better soon.
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Sending a Big Hug from Over the Pond Laurel.
Laurele wrote: "Thanks, all. I'm home from a long day at the hospital. I feel like I'm raising a couple of two year olds. Neither my mother nor my father can understand what is going on, so I have to give the same..."We're thinking of you Laurel. And Everyman is right--don't forget your own health.
Laurele wrote: "...I feel like I'm raising a couple of two year olds. Neither my mother nor my father can understand what is going on, so I have to give the same..."George Eliot's often reprinted quote, here expanded, and its source named, seemed appropriate to events involving you:
"...What do we live for if not to make life less difficult for each other? I cannot be indifferent to the troubles of a man who advised me in my trouble, and attended me in my illness."--Middlemarch Bk 8 Ch 72
http://pt.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_E...
Great quote, Asmah! Thanks everyone. This week it's an extended care facility and then maybe back home for her. One of my sisters and two of my brothers are coming up Thursday to see the Aged P's and help my with decisions, etc.
I have finished listening again to the English faculty of the University of Cambridge do their marathon reading of Paradise Lost. They recorded it in celebration of John Milton's 400th birthday (Dec. 9, 2008).The readings get off to a slow and scratchy start, but they build and become wonderfully dramatic. I especially enjoy the books that are done in readers'-theatre style. This is well worth downloading to your MP3 player. Not quite as polished as Anton Lessor's reading, but certainly an exciting addition to it. One can never read Milton too many times.
Here are the recordings:
http://mediaplayer.group.cam.ac.uk/de...
And a nice tribute from NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...
I stumbled across this article from The New Englander (apparently a magazine or journal) Volume 42, from 1883. Title is The Plan of Paradise Lost. Basically, as far as I have read, the author contends that the plan of PL comes not so much from Genesis, though of course Genesis is there, but from the Book of the Revelation of St. John.Revelations is not one of the books I know at all well, but I'm sure Laurel does, so maybe, Laurel, you might get a chance to glance through this essay and let us know what you think of it?
It's a long URL, so I've copied in the full URL, but also given a TinyURL version.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/...
http://tinyurl.com/3898rtk
My understanding has always been that Milton draws upon two distinct biblical narratives: The story of the Creation is from the early chapters of Genesis, which do not include any references to Satan by name or to the fall of the angels. This latter narrative is taken from Revelations, the final book of the bible. Milton therefore brings together the opening and closing sections of the bible but he made the radical choice to begin his poem with the aftermath of the fall of angels, in effect turning the biblical sequence on its head. This Fall can be seen as an allegory of the fall of Cromwell's Protectorate, which Milton very much regretted, and the Restoration of the King. Milton's Garden of Eden can be interpreted as England's Fall from Grace because the Protectorate was viewed by fervent Puritans like Milton as a government authorised by God - it was rather like the concept of Manifest Destiny espoused by Americans of the 19C, which in turn harked back to the 17C Puritan concept of a City on a Hill, and to the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5:14.) http://endtimepilgrim.org/puritans02.htm
More of this 'political take' when we come to the discussion:).
MadgeUK wrote: More of this 'political take' when we come to the discussion:). "We're going to have fun with this discussion.
I heard a lecturer the other day say that while Milton today is considered a conservative, the prototypical dead white male, in his day he would have been described as a far left wing radical. But we have to wait a few weeks before getting into all that. First comes Richard II and another view of the divine right of kings, or otherwise!
Yes, that is so Everyman - he was just like me:D:D.
MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, that is so Everyman - he was just like me:D:D."So you're saying that in four hundred years you'll be viewed as a rampant Tory???????
LOL. I hope so, since that will mean that the UK has moved significantly to the left instead of electing Tory public school aristocrats, as now:).
Everyman wrote: I stumbled across this article from The New Englander (apparently a magazine or journal) Volume 42, from 1883. Title is The Plan of Paradise Lost. Basically, as far as I have read, the author contends that the plan of PL comes not so much from Genesis, though of course Genesis is there, but from the Book of the Revelation of St. John.Revelations is not one of the books I know at all well, but I'm sure Laurel does, so maybe, Laurel, you might get a chance to glance through this essay and let us know what you think of it?
It's a long URL, so I've copied in the full URL, but also given a TinyURL version.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toc...
http://tinyurl.com/3898rtk
John A. Himes was an outstanding Milton scholar who knew well the Bible and the other classics. If you would like some notes to Paradise Lost and can spare $5.00, I highly recommend the Dover Giant Thrift Edition of Paradise Lost. It's not pretty, but Himes's notes are excellent. The article cited above is very interesting. Milton used the entire Bible, of course, for his perspective, but the seven trumpets section of Revelation (no 's,' please) could very well fit into his organizational plan. I'll keep that in mind as I read.
You can find the Dover Thrift Edition here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/048644287X/r...
Here is a reproduction of Himes's A Study of Milton's Paradise Lost, a book that I do not have:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1145425852/r...
Laurele wrote: "Everyman wrote: I stumbled across this article from The New Englander (apparently a magazine or journal) Volume 42, from 1883. Title is The Plan of Paradise Lost. Basically, as far as I have read, ..."The Himes Study of Paradise Lost is available to read free on Google Books. If this URL doesn't work, just go to Google Books and search Himes Study of Milton's Paradise Lost and it'll come up.
It appears that the book is out of copyright so the whole book seems to be available to read. I haven't gone down it yet, but that's what it looks like.
The URL:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ff2_...
Everyman wrote: It appears that the book is out of copyright so the whole book seems to be available to read. I haven't gone down it yet, but that's what it looks like.The URL:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ff2_Xef...
Great find! On page 17 Himes is repeating what I just said.
The depth and breadth of knowledge and information possessed by Everyman, Madge, Laurele, and many others in this group boggles the mind - I know my mind will continue to be stretched in all directions. I have ordered the Dover Thrift Edition of Paradise Lost to add to my old beat-up edition. Thank you all.
Helyn wrote: "The depth and breadth of knowledge and information possessed by Everyman, Madge, Laurele, and many others in this group boggles the mind - I know my mind will continue to be stretched in all direct..."Thanks from all of us, and glad you'll be with us for the PL discussion.
There are many participants here who bring an extensive reading background to the group, in addition to the three you are kind enough to mention. Those three are all, well, I won't say old, but let's just say more experienced readers. (And all being retired, we have time to keep reading!)
There are two pleasures here. One is to discuss these books with other readers who bring considerable experience of the classics to the discussion. Equally pleasurable is to hear the thoughts of younger readers who may be encountering these books for the first time and bring new perspectives that those of us raised in a different age might not be as aware of. The mix of readers is part of the joy of this group; every participant has something valuable to add to the discussion.
Eight or ten years ago I was reading Paradise Lost for the very first time, and oh how I appreciated the help of those who already knew and loved it.
Laurele wrote: "Eight or ten years ago I was reading Paradise Lost for the very first time, and oh how I appreciated the help of those who already knew and loved it."And then about five years ago you led a wonderful discussion of it on another site, and showed how much you understood and appreciated it, and were so helpful to others reading it for the first time.
Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Eight or ten years ago I was reading Paradise Lost for the very first time, and oh how I appreciated the help of those who already knew and loved it."And then about five years ago..."
Blush.
Everyman wrote: "Helyn wrote: "The depth and breadth of knowledge and information possessed by Everyman, Madge, Laurele, and many others in this group boggles the mind - I know my mind will continue to be stretched..."PL is one of those books that have always seem very daunting to me, because both of its form and its theological subject matter. I'm not sure whether I'm ready to tackle it, especially during the summer holiday when the kids will be out of school. But --- I'm one of those younger readers who might benefit immensely from the tutelage of the more experienced ones here, and this might be a good opportunity to take the plunge. We'll see. : )
Everyman wrote: "Equally pleasurable is to hear the thoughts of younger readers......"So true Everyman. I very much enjoy the high standard of contributions from this group. Being retired might give us time but it does not necessarily give us more insight.:)
Western Canon next readAlthough we are still early in the discussion of Paradise Lost, it’s not too soon to think about our next read, to give people time to find or borrow or buy the book we will be reading.
The random book generator came up with an interesting and somewhat eclectic list, augmented by suggestions from the moderators. I also tossed in The Prince, which was mentioned recently.
Any of these works should make for an interesting discussion. There are a few challenging texts here, if we feel up to them, and one or two which might be a bit less strenuous after Paradise Lost, though our discussion is so great that it’s obvious that we can successfully read challenging books, so we shouldn’t let ourselves be scared off by them.
Before I actually post the poll for voting, I will leave the list here for a week or so for people to comment on or lobby for any of the works. Also, if some of these are not familiar to you, feel free to ask for a description of or an argument in favor of the work. Lobbying should be lobbying for a particular work or works, not lobbying against, please.
The works, in alphabetical order by author:
Boccaccio, The Decameron
Dickens, Our Mutual Friend
Machiavelli, The Prince
Melville, Moby Dick
Newton, The Principia: Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy
Rousseau, Emile
Shelley, Mary, Frankenstein
Sterne, The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy
Aeschylus, Oresteia
That's an intriguing list. Choices, choices.
ETA: I'm leaning toward Machiavelli or Newton. The Newton might be a bit of a slog with the math, but I'd be willing to give it a try. I've read the 3 19th c books, Tristram Shandy, and other books by Rousseau (not Emile) so I'd like to head off into something new.
ETA: I'm leaning toward Machiavelli or Newton. The Newton might be a bit of a slog with the math, but I'd be willing to give it a try. I've read the 3 19th c books, Tristram Shandy, and other books by Rousseau (not Emile) so I'd like to head off into something new.
Interesting choices. I'm leaning towards Tristram Shandy, and also curious about The Decameron. I've read Frankenstein, and recently read Our Mutual Friend so I'd probably not go for them.
Once again, Aeschylus gets robbed. Poor guy. ;)
Such wonderful picks. I really hope we read Rousseau. When I first saw the list I thought to myself "ghh, why Emile and not Discourse on Inequality or The Social Contract?". But then I realized it would be much more interesting to read Rousseau as a philosopher of education because most people already know at least a bit about his political ideas. The fact that the question of a "proper" education (classical education vs a more pragmatic modern one) is so frequently debated on this group makes it even more interesting. I can't wait to see what we decide on.
I vote for Newton's The Principia; am quite sure I could never get through Newton without comments from this group.Am throughly enjoying the PL discussion and am saving all the web sites for reading during a less busy time...the winter perhaps.
The Newton would be far too mathematical and scientific for me:). The Prince is a nice little read but Moby Dick is a very long one. Tristram Shandy would be fun.
MadgeUK wrote: "The Newton would be far too mathematical and scientific for me:). "Don't underestimate yourself. However, it is indeed very mathematical. The term "natural philosophy" may be a bit misleading; he is writing basically the laws of motion which he developed.
Before voting for the book, I suggest that people not familiar with it take a peek at it. You can see scanned copies it on Google Book Search; you can find a copy here; scroll down past the introductory material and life of Newton into the actual text, or just enter page 120 or later in the page box to the left of the page arrows and make sure this is really something you think will be of interest to you.
I was tempted to omit it from the list of offerings, but somebody had put it on our book list and it came up, so I figured what the heck, let's see what people think. But I suggest you actually take a glance at it before deciding whether to vote for it.
MadgeUK wrote: "Tristram Shandy would be fun."For those not familiar with TS, it's a weird book in some ways, but it might well bring out some interesting discussion. You can browse an online copy here
Here are excerpts from Wikipedia article on it
"As its title suggests, the book is ostensibly Tristram's narration of his life story. But it is one of the central jokes of the novel that he cannot explain anything simply, that he must make explanatory diversions to add context and colour to his tale, to the extent that we do not even reach Tristram's own birth until Volume III.
...
Most of the action is concerned with domestic upsets or misunderstandings, which find humour in the opposing temperaments of Walter—splenetic, rational and somewhat sarcastic—and Uncle Toby, who is gentle, uncomplicated and a lover of his fellow man.
In between such events, Tristram as narrator finds himself discoursing at length on sexual practices, insults, the influence of one's name, noses, as well as explorations of obstetrics, siege warfare and philosophy, as he struggles to marshal his material and finish the story of his life.
...
Sterne incorporated into Tristram Shandy many passages taken almost word for word from Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy, Francis Bacon's Of Death, Rabelais and many more, and rearranged them to serve the new meaning intended in Tristram Shandy.[1:] Tristram Shandy was highly praised for its originality, and nobody noticed until years after Sterne's death."
Thomas wrote: "Once again, Aeschylus gets robbed. Poor guy. ;)"Grrrr. I really do know better. When I'm thinking. Which obviously isn't all the time!
Everyman, you are indeed a wise man. My daughter, who is "into" mathematics, thought this book might encourage me to share her enthusiasm...As you might guess, not so. I hereby withdraw my vote for Newton. Thanks for your suggestion.
Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Once again, Aeschylus gets robbed. Poor guy. ;)"Grrrr. I really do know better. When I'm thinking. Which obviously isn't all the time!"
Just giving a fellow Johnnie a hard time. :)
Newton would be a hoot, but the math assumes a thorough understanding of Euclid. There are a couple of helpful aids written by St. John's faculty that look interesting (info here) but it would be tough going with the math. I don't think I would have the patience or the time for it now.
Patrice wrote: "The incredible thing about Newton is that his influence changed history. The idea that the world could be explained through universal laws effected not just physics but politics philosophy and economics as well. His words echo throughout everything that followed. ."Very true. But Principia is still a very challenging work! I think it really requires a group meeting physically together so that the theorems can be put up on the blackboard and worked through and their meaning hashed out.
Everyman wrote: "But Principia is still a very challenging work! I think it really requires a group meeting physically together so that the theorems can be put up on the blackboard and worked through and their meaning hashed out."A virtual blackboard would work, and I have software that could be used to capture narrated proofs for Flash or AVI format screencasts. (Not pressing for Newton, just letting you know what resources are available.)
I read Newton's Principia a few years ago. There are parts that are amenable to disucssion, but much of it is data and geometrical proofs (which I skimmed over). The exposition seemed a little murky; I think Newton had not hit on the best way to present his ideas.A friend of mine made the observation that any competant physics professor today could easily rewrite the Principia into a much better book. Nobody today could do that to Homer (or Milton). That's a big difference between science and literature.
Roger wrote: "..any competent physics professor today could easily rewrite the Principia....Nobody today could do that to Home...A bold claim! :) Rewriting isn't the same as having the original ideas though. Here is a summary of them, which perhaps explains why 'an encyclopaedia of science will reveal at least two to three times more references to Newton that any other individual scientist':-
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95de...
Girls didn't do science or physics at my school in the 1940s so all this is quite beyond me:). I did a bit of Euclid and Pythagoras but I HATED maths:0.
I guess I don't care too much if the Principia is literature or not. Newton just fascinates me. As Patrice said, Newton had a huge impact on both the direction of science and the philosophy of the Enlightenment. In 2005 the British Royal Society ran a poll asking scientists who had a bigger impact on science and humankind, Einstein or Newton. They overwhelmingly chose Newton.
http://royalsociety.org/News.aspx?id=...
And then you have this interesting list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100
http://royalsociety.org/News.aspx?id=...
And then you have this interesting list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100
I'm going to put in a plug for the Oresteia.When we talk about the Western Canon, the Greeks are where it pretty much begins.
This trilogy of three plays is of great historical significance, being the only extant trilogy we have from the Greek theater. (Greek tragedies were performed in a set of three plays; all the other Greek tragedies we have are single plays whose accompanying plays have been lost.)
But beyond their historical significance, these are whopping good plays. They have almost everything one could look for in a great tragedy. Compelling figures (kings, queens, a beautiful priestess/concubine/soothsayer, a chorus of dancing singers), a family curse, murder and regicide, love, hate, vengeance, matricide, gods and demons, a trial for murder, you name it, these plays have it! And there are some excellent new translations of it to enjoy.
And, Madge, no maths!
Ahh, and when I look up Oresteia I see the author is Aeschylus which explains Thomas and your comments upthread.
Everyman wrote: "I'm going to put in a plug for the Oresteia."I enjoy math and physics, but I'd prefer Oresteia for now, both for the reasons you've mentioned and because I read Mourning Becomes Electra years ago and would like to read the work on which it is based.
I have Laurel's permission to quote from some PMs we, as moderators, exchanged.She had proposed Frankenstein (each of the moderators is allowed to add one book to the list which is randomly-generated from our bookshelf), saying "I think Frankenstein might be a good book to follow Paradise Lost."
I had replied "Actually, I've never read it, and have never really been eager to. Though if you think it's worth reading, I'm probably missing something I shouldn't miss. (I don't care that much for ghost/fantasy sorts of books -- Northanger Abbey and the Mysteries of Udolpho are about as far into that genre as I've gone since leaving Poe behind decades ago.) But I'll put it on the list and see what happens!"
To which she replied "I think Mary Shelley will surprise you. Her book is more about philosophy and world view than about fantasy or monsters. You need to read Frankenstein. One thing: it is far, far better than Dracula--a whole different level of book. "
In case there are others who have tended to look down on Frankenstein for various reasons (clips from the movie maybe being one of them, or lumping Frankstein in with Dracula and other monster books maybe being another), there's a perspective worth considering.
I'm reading Frankenstein for another group this month. The back story is interesting and Mary Shelley herself is quite a character. I'd encourage anybody who's interested to take a look at her wiki bio. just for fun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_She...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_She...
I've read five of the nine, including Aeschylus--which I just finished a few days ago--but would welcome a discussion.Emile is an interesting read, esp. if paired with Frankenstein. Shelley is pretty obviously influenced by Rousseau's educational model (Rousseau and Locke, that is). Additionally, a reading of Frankenstein could include quite a bit of Romantic poetry (not to mention Milton), as Shelley draws heavily from Coleridge, Wordsworth, the other Shelley, etc.
That being said, I would love to have an excuse to read another Dickens or Tristam Shandy. Dickens is always a lot of fun, and Victorian England is always fascinating to me. Tristam Shandy is one of those things I probably should read, but probably won't unless I am "assigned" to.
Bishop wrote: "I've read five of the nine, including Aeschylus--which I just finished a few days ago--but would welcome a discussion.Emile is an interesting read, esp. if paired with Frankenstein. Shelley is p..."
Sounds as though, like many of us, you wish you had more than one vote!
Everyman wrote: Sounds as though, like many of us, you wish you had more than one vote! ."Sorry: Dickens! Ha!
Perhaps it might suit if we read a good biography of Newton? This one has a decent review:-http://www.amazon.co.uk/Isaac-Newton-...
http://www.amazon.com/Isaac-Newton-Ja...
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides (other topics)The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides (other topics)
