Axis Mundi X discussion
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Closed for the Winter
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Shutting Down Discussion
Wow, you guys. You make me feel all warm and fuzzy.That's the cosmos speaking, Sarah. Girl, take a night off, already.
:)
A night off from what? I'm not drinking. This is a natural high from Axis love.
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Does anyone besides me ever wonder what happened to our collective ability to have a meaningful discussion about things we disagree on? Did we ever have it? This thread reminded me of an excellent Stephen Fry blog on arguments:http://stephenfry.com/blog/?p=27
It's an interesting view of America by and Englishman who likes to argue. Scroll down to the getting overheated section.
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IMO, the difference between then and now is the speed with which correspondence can occur.
Fry's essay was interesting, and man have I been in arguments like he was describing. I live my life in such arguments. But I think casting the argument as an American/British antagonism, or rather a New World/Britain divide at all is totally misguided. Even if more Americans are so-called "global-warming deniers" than British (which I believe), it is totally unfair to deduce that Americans are more opposed to open debate, or overt opposition at the dinner table. Certainly, that has not been my experience.
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It is my experience that the British are more skilled in this area. Compare the House of Commons with the floor of the US Senate. Huge difference.
I come from a family where passionate debate over dinner (and long after dinner is over) was the rule rather than the exception. My sisters used to get tired of it and leave, but I would stay there with my mom and my grandfather going at it for hours sometimes. My dad and I as well spend hours at it. But not everyone has the stomach for it... and anyone who becomes defensive as a result of being uncertain of their ability to back up their feelings with information is certainly doomed. I think that is unfortunately the level to which much debate in this country has sunk - "I just feel it's wrong, therefore I am right". Not anywhere to go with that kind of debate. I think Donna's point about a Classical education is a good one. Those don't usually happen anymore in public school here. It's a sad state of affairs in that department IMHO.
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Once the argument veers from the topic to the personal, it has gone off the rails.
True, sometimes people are biased, but the way to address that is with solid information that cannot be denied, not a personal attack.
Solid information is sometimes lost on certain people, and it can always be denied.
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I exhort the members of this fine group to keep in mind this worthy motto:
What you are all saying here reaffirms my belief that, as American students, we should all be required to take an intensive class in critical analysis/thinking. This should be the foundation upon which all other specific disciplines are built: the ability to think clearly, relevantly, and thoroughly about complex and often emotional issues. (Of course, if there were such a required course in college, many conservatives would likely cite this as proof of liberal bias in universities.)
I feel very passionately about many issues, but I think listening to and trying to understand opposing positions enable me to articulate my beliefs more effectively, and if my opinion survives the opposing arguments, it is usually strengthened. It never hurts or damages one's own opinion merely to listen to another person's viewpoint unless that opinion is built upon such a shaky foundation that it cannot withstand close analysis. Therefore, when I encounter people who shout down their opponents, throw the argument off track, and introduce ad hominem insults, I generally assume these people are very, very insecure in their opinions. They need smoke and mirrors, bombast, and digression to distract from their argument's bankruptcy. (And this is usually the case. It doesn't mean that their conclusion is necessarily "wrong" but that their reasoning is faulty and doesn't sufficiently support their argument.)
I feel very passionately about many issues, but I think listening to and trying to understand opposing positions enable me to articulate my beliefs more effectively, and if my opinion survives the opposing arguments, it is usually strengthened. It never hurts or damages one's own opinion merely to listen to another person's viewpoint unless that opinion is built upon such a shaky foundation that it cannot withstand close analysis. Therefore, when I encounter people who shout down their opponents, throw the argument off track, and introduce ad hominem insults, I generally assume these people are very, very insecure in their opinions. They need smoke and mirrors, bombast, and digression to distract from their argument's bankruptcy. (And this is usually the case. It doesn't mean that their conclusion is necessarily "wrong" but that their reasoning is faulty and doesn't sufficiently support their argument.)
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I think the whole country needs more of this. I am infuriated by an administration that asks us to trust them, and then betrays that trust by using false pretenses to go to war, and to spy on us with wire-tapping without subpoenas.
John McCain, of all people, has promised to have a Question Time for Congress, similar to the Prime Minister answering Parliament's questions.
Democratic Underground.com
Can you imagine that with our current administration? With Mr. "I'm the decider"?
With Bush being the master of avoiding press conferences, can you imagine going from this administration to one that would actually go into Congress to respond to questions?
David, that's very true for listening. A good friend and I once got into one of those discussions that always seem to end with lots of hate - abortion. Me being pro and he very much against. We both really listened to each other, very respectfully, and instead of shouting we actually communicated - you know, where the discussion actually flows from what the other person said instead of the usual fallbacks. And for once I truly understood what he was feeling - he views it as murder as much as any homocide that I'd want the perp put behind bars. Sounds very simple, but I truly got his moral horror. What could I say to that? Nothing. Except I disagreed but there was really no argument against that. And he also understood where I was coming from. We ended with a collective sigh, but a tremendous amount of connectedness. (Is that even a word?)Critical thinking is so important, and yes our US education lacks that unless you go into debating.
I am intrigued by this discussion because it articulates much of what I am reading about school policy/reform. In my generation and before students were taught to be receptacles of knowledge from the wiser, all knowing teacher. Now we are working to create classroom environments in which the students generate most of the knowledge with the guidance and support of a teacher-as-mentor. If we had all been trained in our youth to listen to the wisdom of our peers and to value it as much (or more so)than that of authority figures, I believe that our current political state wouldn't be the mucky quagmire that it has become.
And the learning-doing is generated out of Socratic seminar style debating on what is important. I agree that I veered off y'all's topic here (lordy that is too many apostrophes) so I'm bowing out. But thanks for the clarification, Donna.
Keeping up with the thread topics is like a ride with Mr Toad, after all.
A hundred years ago in a town like Nottingham (England) you could post a postcard at 7am in order to tell your friend living the other side of Nottingham where to meet that night knowing that they would get your postcard that afternoon. I'm reading the biography of Lytton Strachey at the moment and it does seem as if every middle and upper middleclass person in England set aside part of the day to dash off several letters to their numerous friends, which they then all kept. Not too dissimilar to us spending an hour emailing. Except that we don't keep all the replies. Pity the biographers of the future - no letters and all the emails deleted.
Oooooo Charly - What a fantastic idea! I love it! I know that I do set aside a "few" hours of every day for correspondence with the virtual community.
Charly that is great and one other thing I love about the internet era is the ability to hear the opinions of people around the globe (Paul's refreshing views of our news, for example) instead of having to relay on the media -institutions that are always twisting the truth to the rhymes of their sponsors.
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Today I went to the.....hee, yes, on the computer it's easy to tell who is listening and who is not on a regular basis. What's nice here is that everyone seems to listen, so the discussions are real.
I was thinking about what Paul said about in the past there being mail a few times a day. I always thought that was so nice, never thinking we now have that with email!
But there are negatives with email too, with how fast and demanding everything is. For instance, my husband is and independent contractor who does a ton of work with Microsoft. He was due at work at 11AM one morning, but got a pissed off phone call at 9 asking where the fuck he was. Turns out this person emailed him at 7 AM that morning to tell him about the change in schedule. Get a life buddy, not everyone checks their email every hour!
"It is my experience that the British are more skilled in this area. Compare the House of Commons with the floor of the US Senate. Huge difference."
Char, I had to laugh at that! I used to watch Parliament when I lived over there because I found it so amusing that they use such "proper" speech and formal phrasing, but are totally rude and insulting and absolutely personally attack one another! If it is a heated enough topic anyway. "Might I say that the right honorable gentleman is an idiot and has no idea about that which he speaks..." Ha!!! I paraphrase of course, it's been a while. But, they are by no means always pleasant and impersonal. I also always thought it was hilarious that there would be that one guy, on a slow day, SOUND asleep! Dude, they have to know that shit is televised. If I was in his constituency, I think he might lose my vote next election if he can't even stay awake.
(By the way, I missed all the hoopla. Mau is a good guy, King is a good guy. I'm not sure where that blow up came from, as I read the MA thread and King was never on there. Mau takes things very seriously and to heart, I have a lot of respect for him for that. His passion about things really comes out. Maybe that went against King's "grain", and that's okay. Everyone doesn't have to be pals here any more than in the real world. I am personally okay with it, I admire his passion. But, whatever. I think I'm glad I missed it.)
Char, I had to laugh at that! I used to watch Parliament when I lived over there because I found it so amusing that they use such "proper" speech and formal phrasing, but are totally rude and insulting and absolutely personally attack one another! If it is a heated enough topic anyway. "Might I say that the right honorable gentleman is an idiot and has no idea about that which he speaks..." Ha!!! I paraphrase of course, it's been a while. But, they are by no means always pleasant and impersonal. I also always thought it was hilarious that there would be that one guy, on a slow day, SOUND asleep! Dude, they have to know that shit is televised. If I was in his constituency, I think he might lose my vote next election if he can't even stay awake.
(By the way, I missed all the hoopla. Mau is a good guy, King is a good guy. I'm not sure where that blow up came from, as I read the MA thread and King was never on there. Mau takes things very seriously and to heart, I have a lot of respect for him for that. His passion about things really comes out. Maybe that went against King's "grain", and that's okay. Everyone doesn't have to be pals here any more than in the real world. I am personally okay with it, I admire his passion. But, whatever. I think I'm glad I missed it.)
Some great House of Commons invective here - if you have a spare 10 minutes, it's worth ithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dRrD8...
Fantastic Paul...exactly what I was talking about. So damn funny!
I loved watching the House of Commons on C-SPAN. Now that is democracy at work; elected officials politely telling one another to go suck a fat whale cock, and not being reprimanded for it.
Here, VP Dick tells Robert Byrd to go fuck himself, and all hell breaks loose.
Not that VP Dick doesn't deserve his fate...
Here, VP Dick tells Robert Byrd to go fuck himself, and all hell breaks loose.
Not that VP Dick doesn't deserve his fate...
Whereas if you ask a taint sniffer like former Senator Rick Santorum if you wanted to borrow the car, he'd accuse you of being a homosexual, and homosexuals are the biggest terrorist threat to America.
Now not only are you not going to borrow the car, but you've just been outed as a gay suicide bomber.
Guess that means you're taking the bus.
Now not only are you not going to borrow the car, but you've just been outed as a gay suicide bomber.
Guess that means you're taking the bus.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgTvM...
Once again begging the question, do they not realize this is televised?
Once again begging the question, do they not realize this is televised?
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Uh, that'd be the PRIME MINISTER of the UK!!! Eating his boogers like a three year old! Get a hankie dude, or a tissue. You're rich, you could have hankies hand squeezed out of a silk worm's backside!
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You are talking about my Great Leader, people. What's Brown and sounds like a bell?DUNGGGG!
Gordon has lost so much of the plot in the last 6 months he'd probably eat your boogers too. He walks in small circles and mutters all the time. He's the patron saint of Be Careful What You Wish For. He's so going to lose in 2 years. Alas. But as the great guitar evangelist Blind Willie Johnson succinctly put it in 1927, Ain't Nobody's Fault But Mine.
Gordon Brown reminds me of the now-sacked former Chelsea manager Avram Grant; competent, yes, but completely out of his element. You almost have to feel bad for the poor bastards for being thrust into situations such as these, when they so clearly weren't ready for the primetime.
I said almost.
I said almost.
Gordon has lost so much of the plot in the last 6 months he'd probably eat your boogers too.
Paul, you made me laugh like Gus does!
Paul, you made me laugh like Gus does!
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So does George Bush.
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Especially forthright nose picking. That is the best kind. I'm an unabashed practitioner.
Remember: it's not that you pick your nose, but where you hide the boogers.
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What am I saying???
ahahahah Jackie. Gus: you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
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This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Anyway, maybe give a few warnings that the subject needs to get back on track and off the personal attacks and if that doesn't work, take a vote or just shut it down?
Personally, I avoid threads that have gone off the rails - so to speak - in to throwing insults. Maybe that makes me a chicken, but most of the time, I don't really wish to get in a verbal smackdown with people I don't even *really* know.
Once or twice, I've gotten good and pissed, but I wouldn't permit myself to hurl even a hint of a personal insult because I try to live by that lovely thought: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.