We Love Lisa Kleypas discussion
The Folder of Higher Education
>
Grammar Tutorial
message 2:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Okay, my first dumb question. Do you need to put 's after words that end with an 's', such as Kleypas?
So, would it be Kleypas' books, or Kleypas's books?
message 3:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Another question. When would you use a semicolon in a long sentence? Is there a set rule for this?I told you I was rusty with grammar.
This is what I've always used as a guide:From Grammar & Composition:
2. Use an Apostrophe with -s for Possessives of Singular Nouns
Use an apostrophe plus -s to show the possessive form of a singular noun, even if that singular noun already ends in -s:
•Harold's crayon
•my daughter's First Communion
•Sylvia Plath's poetry
•Dylan Thomas's poetry
•today's weather report
•the boss's problem
•Star Jones's talk show
•Victoria Beckham's husband
3. Use an Apostrophe Without -s for Possessives of Most Plural Nouns
To form the possessive of a plural noun that already ends in -s, add an apostrophe:
•the girls' swing set (the swing set belonging to the girls)
•the students' projects (the projects belonging to the students)
•the Johnsons' house (the house belonging to the Johnsons)
If the plural noun does not end in -s, add an apostrophe plus -s:
•the women's conference (the conference belonging to the women)
•the children's toys (the toys belonging to the children)
•the men's training camp (the training camp belonging to the men)
4. Use an Apostrophe with -s When Two or More Nouns Possess the Same Thing
When two or more nouns possess the same thing, add an apostrophe plus -s to the last noun listed:
•Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia Ice Cream
•Emma and Nicole's school project (Emma and Nicole worked together on the same project)
When two or more nouns separately possess something, add an apostrophe to each noun listed:
•Tim's and Marty's ice cream (Each boy has his own ice cream.)
•Emma's and Nicole's school projects (Each girl has her own project.)
As far as using semicolons, I try hard not to because I've never understood the rules on them. I should probably study up on their usage so I won't embarrass myself. Looking forward to hearing what everyone here has to say. I think this is a great subject to discuss. Thanks Danielle!!
message 6:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Oh, thanks so much, Anne! Hugs!
Great! Thanks Bekah. I'll study these and try and put good use to the lesson on semicolons.
I'd just like to add to AnneOK's post re the possessive. British and American English tends to vary though both are correct so you could put an apostrophe s after a singular or plural word that ends in an s or not:Thomas' work is interesting
Thomas's work is interesting
(Practical English Usage by Richard Swan --my grammar bible ;)
Why is this sentence wrong (or is it?): She went to go to the store yesterday.
For me it's redundant but lots of people say it and write it. Anyone know why lots of people say it?
Oooh, this thread is heaven to me! Thanks for creating it, Danielle. :)
Eastofoz - do you prefer?"Yesterday she went to the store."
I think that's probably a more proper way to state the sentence BUT I admit I'm very guilty of the first usage in my everyday conversations.
message 13:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Thanks for the info. I'm glad you're appreciating it, Dina. I need some help with this stuff, and I'm not afraid to admit it. :)
AnneOK, yes :) For me it doesn't sound like you're repeating yourself but is the other grammatically incorrect --never could find the answer to that one 8-)
My favourite grammar "conundrum" is the use of I/me that no one has ever been able to explain to me in a way that makes sense all the time. I end up rewording my sentences all to often to avoid the problem. So what's your rule of when to use I/me at the end of a sentence and more importantly how do you know and how would you explain it someone. A virtual ereader to anyone who can answer this for me (lol!)
East, trade the virtual eReader for a real one and I'll answer you question, LOL. Actually, I don't know the answer and I often reword my sentences to avoid the problem too.
Dina wrote: "East, trade the virtual eReader for a real one and I'll answer you question, LOL. Actually, I don't know the answer and I often reword my sentences to avoid the problem too."LOL!!!!! Tsk, tsk on both of us grammar lovers then Dina :p
Dina on a singular level do you understand the I and me usage? If so the usage when dealing with another person in a sentence is quite simple. Think of what you'd use if it was just the one person for example:Nora and I walked to the store.
You would not say Me walked to the store. You would say I walked to the store.
Break down the sentence so just you are the one being dealt with and it makes sense.
Another example:
Would you walk to the store with Nora and me?
You would not say Would you walk to the store with I? You would say Would you walk to the store with me?
I hope this answered you question.
Danielle, I'm as confounded as you about the whole semicolon situation and comma's too.
Lisarenee, thanks for coming to our aid. :) I had no doubts regarding the examples you provided. My doubt is more specific. Here's an example:Nora is as tall as me.
Nora is as tall as I (am).
Which sentence is grammatically correct?
Lisarenee wrote: "Dina on a singular level do you understand the I and me usage? If so the usage when dealing with another person in a sentence is quite simple. Think of what you'd use if it was just the one person ..."Lisarenee "why" wouldn't you say "Would you walk to the store with Nora and I?" For me both "sound" right so what's the grammar reason behind it?
Dina your "problemo" is my "problemo" --perfect example of why I'd say both sound right but of course that can't be true. So who wants that virutal ereader, come on ;)
Dina, I'd say the first is correct, but if you use the am with the I the second one is also correct. I'm not sure of the rules. I have noticed with some grammar I just instinctively know something sounds right. The same thing applies with the use of a and an. I couldn't tell you why, but I'll use the correct one.I found the following:
Unlike English nouns, which usually do not change form except for the addition of an -s ending to create the plural or the apostrophe + s to create the possessive, personal pronouns (which stand for persons or things) change form according to their various uses within a sentence. Thus I is used as the subject of a sentence (I am happy.), me is used as an object in various ways (He hit me. He gave me a book. Do this for me.),
Does this help? I'm guessing not a lot so I'll try to see if I can find something else.
Dina and Eastofoz,I found this explanation, but basically it's the same as the last explanation I listed, but gives more examples:
The official explanation is, “I” is a nominative pronoun and is used as a subject of a sentence or clause, while “me” is an objective pronoun and used as an object. Sound too technical? Then think of this:
The trouble with “me” usually begins when speakers are stringing together two or more objects in a sentence. “I” is not an objective case word, but people try to plug it in as an object because it just sounds smarter.
All you have to do is leave out the second object. Look over these examples, and you’ll see it’s really simple.
You might be tempted to say:
WRONG: “Would you explain that to John and I?”
But then, when you omit the other object, you’ll have:
WRONG: “Would you explain that to I?”
Now that just sounds silly. Try this:
RIGHT: “Would you explain that to John and me?”
RIGHT: “Would you explain that to me?”
Now practice with these:
WRONG: Leave the decision to Laura and I.
RIGHT: Leave the decision to me.
RIGHT: Leave the decision to Laura and me.
Eastofoz wrote: "Lisarenee wrote: "Dina on a singular level do you understand the I and me usage? If so the usage when dealing with another person in a sentence is quite simple. Think of what you'd use if it was ju..."East, it has something to do with "Nora and I" not being the subject of the sentence. If it was the subject of the sentence, for example, "Nora and I walked to the store", Nora and I would be correct.
Ack! Why did I jump into this?:D
I usually do what Lisarenee suggested--Break down the sentence so just you are the one being dealt with and it makes sense.
Lisarenee thanks for the examples but it's still too "technical" for me with double objects and nominative pronouns and raises additional questions :( I'd need it explained in simpler terms like "if you can add a verb after 'I' then 'I' is correct and not 'me'" but of course that's for the easy sentences.I know that that first example "Would you explain that to John and I" is wrong because there's the preposition "to" and after prepositions you don't use the subject pronouns like I. So that I can see a rule without going by sound. Back to Dina's example of the comparative of equality with as/as though hmmmm.... Can anyone answer there with a cut and dry rule? Ah grammar is like a jigsaw puzzle I swear ;)
Auntee wrote: "Eastofoz wrote: "Lisarenee wrote: "Dina on a singular level do you understand the I and me usage? If so the usage when dealing with another person in a sentence is quite simple. Think of what you'd..."Auntee, how would recognize what the subject of the sentence is? I still can't seem to break it down and know for sure with a clear rule like the preposition rule I mentioned above. That's clear because you see the preposition you know to use this kind of pronoun. No ambiguity. That's the kind of rule I'm looking for. How would you break down or choose between Dina's examples?
Nora is as tall as me.
Nora is as tall as I (am).
Isn't it sad that no one can explain this easily --it's one of the most massacred things in English grammar too 8-)
I just found Grammar Rock pronoun video. I was hoping they would explain it. I thought maybe that's why I instinctively know when to use I or me, I had it drummed into my head every Saturday morning while watching my favorite cartoons, but they don't explain it. Drats! Funny they explain interjections very well. Sorry guys.
message 28:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Bekah wrote: "semicolons:http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuatio..."
Oh, Bekah. That does help. I wasn't far off in the way I use semicolons.
I'm still a bit lost on the me versus I, girls. But the examples do help somewhat.
Lisarenee wrote: "I just found Grammar Rock pronoun video. I was hoping they would explain it. I thought maybe that's why I instinctively know when to use I or me, I had it drummed into my head every Saturday morni..."I have that too on DVD! I love that part about interjections :D A lot of grammar points are well explained on that as are some key history points (lol!)
Thanks for the additional explanation and examples, Lisarenee and Auntee. Now (I think) I know how to use "I" and "me" in comparative sentences like the example I gave, but I'm still a bit lost as to the why. As I'm not a native English speaker, I feel the need to know the rule behind it to settle the knowledge in my brain. I can understand why it may be difficult for you guys to understand my confusion with something that must be obvious to you. Like Lisarenee mentioned, you know that by "instinct", having had it drummed into your heads since childhood. :)
Dina I'm a native English speaker and it annoys the crap out of me that I can't figure out the "why" parts of grammar :(
Maybe this is one of those things that one has to accept in blind faith... J/K, of course. There must be a rule somewhere, but I can't help picturing English teachers saying "Because I said so." in response to "Why do I have to use 'me' instead of 'I' in this sentence?" LOL.
message 33:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
English is a bizarre language with rules that probably don't make sense to newbies. I know that some still don't make sense to me. I think it was easier to learn Spanish. LOL.
Dina said,"I can understand why it may be difficult for you guys to understand my confusion with something that must be obvious to you."Don't feel bad. I was lying awake last and wondering if it was wrong to say, "Nora is as tall as me." Then I had a flash back to grade school and remembered having countless worksheets with different variants of I and me to fill in. I'm now unsure if it is correct to say Nora is as tall as me. It sounds correct to me, but I may be wrong.
Great idea for a thread, Danielle. I always struggle with punctuation! :( This site is helpful and you can sign up for a newsletter that comes weekly or monthly. It addresses different situations and how to use the correct grammar or punctuation.http://www.grammarbook.com/
When I began writing my book, my friend/editor who is a published author suggested this site: http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/C...
You can browse their FAQ section for answers.
message 37:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Thanks so much, Dhestiny. I need all the help I can get. I am pretty bad at punctuation. I won't even begin to pretend otherwise. :)
Eastofoz wrote: "Why is this sentence wrong (or is it?): She went to go to the store yesterday.
For me it's redundant but lots of people say it and write it. Anyone know why lots of people say it?"
I would NEVER say that it sounds so wrong. I don't know if it grammatically correct or not.
This is the weekly tip I received today.Hyphens with the Prefix re
Many of us find hyphens confusing. The prefix re can make hyphenating even more of a head-scratching experience. However, there is really only one rule that you need to learn to determine when to hyphenate with re.
Rule: Use the hyphen with the prefix re only when re means again AND omitting the hyphen would cause confusion with another word.
Example: Will she recover from her illness?
Re does not mean again so no hyphen.
Example: I have re-covered the sofa twice.
Re does mean again AND omitting the hyphen would have caused confusion with another word so hyphenate.
Example: The stamps have been reissued.
Re means again but would not cause confusion with another word so no hyphen.
Example: I must re-press the shirt.
Re means again AND omitting the hyphen would cause confusion with another word so hyphenate.
UniquelyMoi *~*Dhestiny*~* wrote: "This is the weekly tip I received today.Hyphens with the Prefix re
Many of us find hyphens confusing. The prefix re can make hyphenating even more of a head-scratching experience. However,..."
That one is great. I always tend to hyphenate re-read but was never sure. Thanks Dhestiny!
You're welcome! I've always hyphenated re-read, too. I was never sure, but who knows?
message 42:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
English Tip of the WeekWriting Numbers as Words
Many readers have asked me why people write numbers this way:
Example: We will need 220 (two hundred twenty) chairs.
Isn’t it unnecessary to have both numerals and words for the same number?
Rule of Thumb: There are two reasons for using both: 1. You are more likely to make an error when typing a numeral than when typing a word AND much less likely to spot the error when proofreading. 2. If your document is dense, has a lot of numbers, or contains large numbers, the numerical form helps your readers scan information quickly.
So by typing a combination of a numeral and a word, you are almost guaranteed accuracy and ease of reading.
Rule: Some authorities say that the numbers one through nine or ten should be spelled out and figures used for higher numbers. Other authorities spell out one through one hundred, plus even hundreds, thousands, and so on. The best strategy is to be consistent.
Correct Examples: I want five copies, not ten copies. I want 5 copies, not 10 copies
Rule: Be consistent within a category. For example, if you choose numerals because one of the numbers you must deal with is greater than ten, you should use numerals for everything in that category. If you use numbers in different categories, use figures for one category and words for the other.
Correct Example: Given the budget constraints, if all 30 history students attend the four plays, then the 7 math students will be able to attend only two plays.
(Students are represented with figures; plays are represented with words.)
Incorrect Example: I asked for five pencils, not 50.
I tend to write things out unless I'm trying to keep whatever it is short. I had it drilled into me by all my English teachers write everything out including numbers and contractions. Besides 220 may count as one word but Two Hundred and Twenty counts as four. Dhestiny, the information you gave is really good to know, I didn't know some of it, Thanks.
Capitalization after ColonsHave you run across the situation where one sentence ending with a colon is followed by another sentence? Do you capitalize the first word of that second sentence? Why would you use a colon between the two sentences rather than a period or a semicolon?
Rule for colons between sentences: Use a colon instead of a semicolon or a period between two sentences when the second sentence explains or illustrates something in the first sentence.
Capitalization rule with sentences after colons: If only one sentence follows the colon, do not capitalize the first word of the new sentence. If two or more sentences follow the colon, capitalize the first word of each sentence following.
Example: One of my favorite novels is by Kurt Vonnegut: his novel, Slaughterhouse-Five, is often funny, yet packs an emotional punch.
Example: Garlic is used generously in Italian dishes: It greatly enhances the flavor of pasta. Garlic also enhances the flavor of lasagna, one of my favorite dishes.
Now, should you capitalize the first word after a colon if it begins a list rather than a new sentence?
Rule for capitalizing with lists after colons: Do not capitalize the first word of a list after a colon.
Example: One of my favorite novels is by Kurt Vonnegut: his novel, Slaughterhouse-Five, is often funny, yet packs an emotional punch.
Example: Garlic is used generously in Italian dishes: It greatly enhances the flavor of pasta. Garlic also enhances the flavor of lasagna, one of my favorite dishes.
Now, should you capitalize the first word after a colon if it begins a list rather than a new sentence?
Rule for capitalizing with lists after colons: Do not capitalize the first word of a list after a colon.
Example: I like the following Italian dishes: pasta primavera, eggplant Parmesan, and lasagna. (Parmesan is capitalized because it comes from the Italian city of Parma.)
message 46:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
Thanks, Dhestiny. This is another weak area of mine.
You're welcome, Danielle. They are all weak areas of mine. LOL Thank heavens for WORD.
Confusing PossessivesWith names of holidays, do you use an apostrophe? If so, do you use singular possessive or plural possessive?
Examples:
Mother’s Day vs. Mothers’ Day vs. Mothers Day
Secretary's Day vs. Secretaries' Day vs. Secretaries Day
Boss’s Day vs. Bosses' Day vs. Bosses Day
Do you think of each mother, secretary, or boss as “owning” the day (Mother's Day, Secretary's Day, Boss's Day)? Or do you think of them as a group “owning” the day (Mothers' Day, Secretaries’ Day, Bosses’ Day)? Or do you think of the words as plural adjectives (Mothers Day, Secretaries Day, Bosses Day)?
There is no right or wrong answer. However, The Chicago Manual of Style lists the following holidays as singular possessives: Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, New Year’s Eve, New Year’s Day. Plural possessive is used for Presidents’ Day because it is in honor of both President Washington and President Lincoln.
I don't think the verdict is in yet about Secretary’s/Secretaries’/Secretaries Day or Boss’s/Bosses’/Bosses Day. My guess is that the plural possessive form (Secretaries' Day/Bosses' Day) will eventually win.
What would we do if we had a Children’s Day holiday? Because Children is an irregular plural (not formed by adding an s or es), we would have to use the apostrophe in the title (Children's Day) because there is no such word as Childrens.
message 50:
by
Danielle The Book Huntress , Certifiable St. Vinnie's Ninny
(new)
That's very helpful, D. Thanks!
I hope we will be nice to each other and refrain from ridiculing each other for questions that may seem silly.