Literary Love Triangles discussion

Never-ending (series) triangles > DARK SWAN series - Dorian vs. Kiyo

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message 1: by FlibBityFLooB (last edited Dec 26, 2011 03:05PM) (new)

message 2: by FlibBityFLooB (new)

FlibBityFLooB I haven't had a chance to read this one by Richelle Mead yet, but I've heard really good things and hope to read it really soon. I'm actually planning on reading it over my vacation in a couple weeks, I think...

message 3: by Sarah (new)

Sarah I've read Storm Born and have Thorn Queen on my TBR. To be honest, I read SB so long ago I've forgotten a lot of it. I liked Dorian, though.

Sharon ∞❥ is an emotional book junkie ❥∞ I really liked Kiyo in the beginning but i keep feeling like something is up with him. Even though Dorian is growing on me, Im not sure about him

message 5: by Shannon (new)

Shannon (Savhage Temptrest) (savhagetemptress) | 7 comments I liked Kiyo from the beginning, but Dorian is just it for me. Red hair, Fae King, kinkiness in the bedroom...what's not to love?

message 6: by Nita (new)

Nita (gillnit) I was never much of a Kiyo lover from the beginning and definitely not one after the second book. I am all for Dorian. He seems to want Eugenie to be herself and to learn how to use her magic.

I ♥ Bookie Nookie ( (ibookienookie) By the time I finished ThornQueen, I totally hated Kiyo. Dorian is at the top of my list for her.

And Flib--you have GOT to read this series.

message 8: by Carolyn F. (new)

Carolyn F. I don't care for Kiyo either. He seemed to be manipulative.

message 9: by Rhonda (new)

Rhonda (helpmerhonda72) Dorian is absolutely YUMMY!! Kiyo was fun for a while, but can't seem to take care of his woman! He should stay with baby mama. I am so looking forward to future books in this series but 2011 is a long way away!!!

I ♥ Bookie Nookie ( (ibookienookie) Rhonda wrote: "Dorian is absolutely YUMMY!! Kiyo was fun for a while, but can't seem to take care of his woman! He should stay with baby mama. I am so looking forward to future books in this series but 2011 is a ..."

almost too long between books. I am going to forget what the series is all about!

message 11: by Rhonda (new)

Rhonda (helpmerhonda72) Cherra wrote: "Rhonda wrote: "Dorian is absolutely YUMMY!! Kiyo was fun for a while, but can't seem to take care of his woman! He should stay with baby mama. I am so looking forward to future books in this series..."

I suppose a reread will be in order!! ;o)

message 12: by Carolyn F. (new)

Carolyn F. Me too Rhonda - I'll have to reread the books too.

message 13: by Sharon ∞❥ is an emotional book junkie ❥∞ (last edited Mar 15, 2010 09:52AM) (new)

Sharon ∞❥ is an emotional book junkie ❥∞ im just curious.....i agree with u guys that Dorian is yummy but dont u think something is up with him? I just feel like he hasnt been as up front with her as he couldve been!!

message 14: by Rhonda (new)

Rhonda (helpmerhonda72) Dorian seems to have some selfish motives, yes.. He has also not made it a secret. However, Eugenie seems to be going through some changes and self discovery. I think Dorian has fallen in love with our heroine, and maybe he will go through some changes himself. I guess we'll just have to see how this plays out!! I can't wait!!!!!

message 15: by FlibBityFLooB (last edited Apr 14, 2010 04:57AM) (new)

FlibBityFLooB Okay, I have finished books 1 & 2 in the Dark Swan series :)

Most decidedly.

Can I just say how yummy he was in some of the subserviance scenes in the first book? *happy smile*

message 16: by FlibBityFLooB (new)

FlibBityFLooB I should post, though. I am very worried that Dorian won't have a HEA with Eugenie based on reading book 2. I can see Richelle Mead setting him up to be too power hungry. *sigh* Why does my man never get the girL????

message 17: by Roshio (new)

Roshio | 3 comments Lol I agree, I think she's gonna end up with Kiyo as Dorian might get too greedy or will do something she can never forgive. But i wish it will be Dorian. By the way what does HEA stand for??

I ♥ Bookie Nookie ( (ibookienookie) I will be super disappointed if Kiyo ends up with her--he is not supportive of her at all. He doesn't deserve her.

Roshio, HEA = Happily Ever After

message 19: by Carolyn F. (new)

Carolyn F. I agree Cherra, Kiyo is not good for her at all. He's much too selfish and judgmental. It's like he blames her for things that are not in her control. I like Dorian too but is he really in love with her, I don't know. He likes her power, but I don't know if what she needs as a permanent partner.

message 20: by Leigh (new)

Leigh (llogan24) i completely agree w/ all you Dorian fans!! i was on the fence about who i preferred after reading Storm Born, but after Thorn Queen, i was 100% Team Dorian. i think that Dorian definitely has some power issues and maybe wanted to be w/ Eugenie in the beginning to fulfill the prophecy, but i think that w/ time, he has really fallen in love w/ her.


i LOVED the scene in TQ when Eugenie and Dorian got drunk after Kiyo's love child was born. the drinking scene was hysterical, but then when they go back to his room and he stands behind her while they are facing the mirror and he tells her that he would be with her even if she wasn't able to have children. *swoon* be still my heart.... and THEN, when Dorian avenges the atrocity done to Eugenie when Kiyo would do nothing. yep, that was the clincher for me....LOVE that Oak King!! :)

message 21: by FlibBityFLooB (new)

FlibBityFLooB Leigh -- that was a very endearing scene with the mirror indeed. :)

message 22: by Bookobsessed (new)

Bookobsessed (amaryllis214) | 9 comments Warning- SPOILERS!

Kiyo started off as fun, but it just went down from there. I think what sealed it for me was when he didn't step up for Eugenie when she was attacked. She needs someone who will give her space to be a good queen, but can also be her knight in shining armor when she needs him. She may be strong and independent, but she also needs someone to stand up for her the way Dorian did.

Dorian may have started off as having ulterior motives when he heard about Eugenie, but I think that since the first time he saw her those motives went out the window. In Thorn Queen, he'd told her that whether she took the crown or went back to her day job, he'd support her. They absolutely have the care and tenderness between each other to be a couple, and get married one day

message 23: by Carolyn F. (new)

Carolyn F. I totally agree with you Adrianne.

message 24: by Lara (new)

Lara (elbe) | 6 comments You guys are making this series sound good - I'm afraid I ended up putting it off again. I love Mead's VA series, but picked up the Georgia Kincaid series 1st and although the book was okay to me, it didn't pull me in enough to go grab the next. Not enough action for me!! Is this series a bit more action packed?

message 25: by Leigh (new)

Leigh (llogan24) Hey, Lara...yes, the Dark Swan series is definitely more action-packed than the Georgina series. Poor Eugenie really just can't catch a!!! I highly recommend!!!

message 26: by Lara (new)

Lara (elbe) | 6 comments Great! I was hoping to hear that! I'm reading a bunch of book 1s now to see which seris I want to get into next and I had pushed this one to the bottom of the list b/c of GK, I'll scoot it back on up now.

message 27: by Leigh (new)

Leigh (llogan24) Yes, definitely check it out!!! I loved it. Although I do have to say that I also Loved Georgina (it's actually my fav series), so I'm sorry that didn't wrap you in right away... :(

message 28: by Zoë (new)

Zoë | 4 comments OK MAJOR SPOILER!!!~!!!!!!
Question why Dorian?
Everyone is prob gonna hate me for this but I honestly prefer Kiyo.
Dorian has ulterior intentions, he may be honest with her but not completely honest he wants the prophecy fufilled and he is making Eugenie power hungry.
Kiyo may have a child with someone else but that was before he was with Eugenie and his not just going to ditch Maiwenn and the baby.
And Eugenie hasn't been expressing all her feelings to Kiyo about how she probably can't have children and worried he will not love her. So it's not all Kiyo's fault if she's not telling him in the first place.
Yeah he didn't kill Leith like Dorian did but he knew the precacussions if he had. Ive read the first chapter of Iron Crowned, Eugenie and Dorian are struggling in the war, Kiyo knew it would happen.
I ultimately think she will have Dorian's child but end up with Kiyo, well I hope anyway cause none of my guys get end up with the girl :(

message 29: by Dija (last edited Aug 17, 2010 08:25AM) (new)


@Zoe: My problem with Kiyo isn't centered on his kid, even though that's a large part of it. It's because Kiyo always expects so much from Genie, for her to be supportive, when I really don't see him contributing to their relationship. I really liked Kiyo in Storm Born before we find about Maiwenn and after that, Kiyo just kept getting steadily worse with all his drama and being with two women at once. It was almost like two-timing.

But what decided my hatred for Kiyo was when he didn't kill Genie's rapist when he really easily could have with no consequences. It was almost like it didn't even matter to him. He takes a much firmer stance when it comes to Maiwenn and the kid, yet he's always going on and on about how "this" or "that" isn't really like Genie and he's constantly trying to change her. It's like he doesn't even accept her and is with her just because she tolerates him when no other woman would probably put up with him because of Maiwenn.

And I don't love Dorian; I just believe he's a much better option than Kiyo. We'll see how things change when more books are released, though.

message 30: by Zoë (new)

Zoë | 4 comments SPOILER!!!!!!!!!
I can see what you mean about Kiyo not wanting Eugenie to change.
He couldn't kill her rapist without consequences, whoever did it would be killed by his mother's kingdom no matter who it was.
Can't wait for Iron Crowned :)

message 31: by Mel (new)

Mel (mel_b) Zoe wrote: "OK MAJOR SPOILER!!!~!!!!!!
Question why Dorian?
Everyone is prob gonna hate me for this but I honestly prefer Kiyo.
Dorian has ulterior intentions, he may be honest with her but not completely h..."

Oh I totally agree with you. I don't think any of the boys are a 100% kosher but everybody is just bashing Kiyo and cheering on Dorian. I totally agree with the fact that Dorian is making Eugenie power hungry. And Eugenie doesn't tell Kiyo anything but feels misunderstood. Self fulfilling prophecy, anyone?!?

message 32: by Zoë (new)

Zoë | 4 comments Yeah I think she is setting up for her to get pregnant by Dorian and maybe end with Kiyo. Well I hope so anyway

message 33: by Mel (new)

Mel (mel_b) Who knows what Mead will do. She said she had a formula in which she does something crazy the third book. Wasn't the Dark Swan series only going to be three books?

message 34: by Zoë (new)

Zoë | 4 comments no it's going to be 4. but yeah Mead is unpredictable. crazy is good :P

message 35: by Alisha (new)

Alisha (schalazeal) Mel wrote: "Who knows what Mead will do. She said she had a formula in which she does something crazy the third book. Wasn't the Dark Swan series only going to be three books?"

Oh, dear. That formula thing. I'll be pretty upset if the "twist" is obviously there for it's own sake and nothing more. like M. Knight Shyamalan's films over time. :o(

message 36: by Alisha (new)

Alisha (schalazeal) Zoe wrote: "Yeah I think she is setting up for her to get pregnant by Dorian and maybe end with Kiyo. Well I hope so anyway"

or maybe the other way around? hehehe...^___^

i can see Dorian raising Kiyo's kid....but I can't see Kiyo doing it for D's. Not sure why....

message 37: by Dija (new)

Dija Alisha wrote: "i can see Dorian raising Kiyo's kid....but I can't see Kiyo doing it for D's. Not sure why.... "

That's because Kiyo's a self-absorbed a**hole who only cares about himself and having a perfect family life and a mistress on the side while Dorian seems to genuinely care about Eugenie.

message 38: by Mel (new)

Mel (mel_b) Kiyo's baby's conception happened before Eugenie. We can hardly blame him for having a kid.
I don't think Kiyo is a self absorbed asshole. If he is, what does that make Doiran? He is selfish and spoiled. I'm not saying that he can't be a good person too, but let's not turn him into an angel. He was raised at a court where everybody does as he pleases, he goes through lover/girlfriends like underwear. Not caring about the feelings of the girl in question. That doesn't sound like very good father material either.

message 39: by Dija (last edited Sep 01, 2010 04:43AM) (new)

Dija Oh, I most definitely don't think Dorian's an angel - quite the opposite. It's just that I have a few major problems with Kiyo that make Dorian seem a lot more appealing (don't read if you haven't read Thorn Queen):

1. Kiyo didn't kill Genie's rapist, when he wouldn't have faced even half the consequences that either Eugenie or Dorian would have. And even if the consequences were equal to a war, he still should have done it after all that Genie's done to keep their relationship intact and after all his claims of "loving" Eugenie.

2. Kiyo needs to stop expecting so much from Genie. He wants her to care for his kid, be nice to Maiwenn, and abandon her kingdom. I dunno abut any of you guys, but I find that highly hypocritical and childish of him. He wants everything to run smoothly when I seriously don't see him deserving any of it.

3. Kiyo should have at least tried to see things from Genie's point of view. But oh, no, he's too busy with his ex and their kid to notice except for a few times which resulted in him yelling @ Genie.

And I have more, but those are the major ones. So that's why I like Dorian more than Kiyo. Which isn't saying a lot, since I'm not really that big of a fan of Dorian, either. But at least he's honest and doesn't hide his agenda (in the sense that it's obvious to everyone he does everything for his kingdom and his own gain) nor his feelings for Genie.

message 40: by Mel (last edited Sep 01, 2010 06:52AM) (new)

Mel (mel_b) LOL. I keep thinking: 'who is Genie?' Did anyone call her 'Genie' in the book? It's been a while since I read them, I can't recall if it's a Dorian or Kiyo thing.

Anyway, I think Mead made a mistake with her heroes. If she wanted a valid love triangle, she shouldn't have made Kiyo the way he is. I feel she made him an outsider to begin with. In everything. Eugenie and Dorian are a like. They both have the same sort of powers (manipulating an element) they're both ruler over their own kingdom, they’re both redheads for crying out loud!

Kiyo looks different, he's the only shifter in the whole series, he already has an ex-girlfriend and a child, I mean: how can he ever win?

Besides that: Mead made him into a selfish lover. He might be not into foreplay because of his animalistic needs, but Mead also doesn't let Eugenie talk to him about it. Now we can hardly accuse someone of not understanding a person if that person isn't willing to explain themselves or their wishes.

As to Eugenie's rapist: I would have liked Kiyo to step up. To at least beat up the guy. Dorian killed him and we all cheered him on. Fact is: we don't know if he would have done the same if killing the rapist wouldn't aid his plans in starting a war.

Dorian might be open in the fact that he's manipulative. And in this case: he would do anything for Eugenie cause she aids his plans. We just don't know how much of his actions are actually heart felt and how much is following his agenda.

I don't know: maybe it's because I'm always supporting the outsider, but I don't think the whole Kiyo-bashing is fair. Both men have their faults.

message 41: by Dija (last edited Sep 02, 2010 02:07AM) (new)

Dija Yeah, she was mentioned several times by the nickname "Genie", but I don't recall either of our "heroes" (it seems like a joke to even call them that after the likes of Bones, Barrons, etc.) calling her that. I just use it sometimes 'cause it's a lot easier than typing Eugenie after every two words. XD

I think the same way. It's one of the only ways I see this series resembling the Georgina Kincaid books: both series have horrible heroes. I don't see any good way for either series to end, because I dislike all the heroes in both the series, but keeping the heroine single also seems a bit harsh.

And I don't think Dorian killed Eugenie's rapist solely for his own gain. That scene didn't really come across like that to me. Sure, some of his own agenda was in there, but I also got the feeling that most of it wasn't really thought through and he did it simply because the dude was Eugenie's torturer.

And yep, both men have their faults. Kiyo just seems to have them more than Dorian, at least imo.

message 42: by Mel (new)

Mel (mel_b) Ugh, I agree with you on the GK series. Have you read the last book? *spoiler* really: what ever happened to Roman? Who cut off his balls?
Everybody seems to hate Seth but I feel sorry for the guy. The only annoying thing about Seth (okay: besides the whole Maddie thing) is that Georgina turns into an ever bigger whiner whenever she's around him. Last book really made me dislike Georgina. You'd think that after millennia she'd wizen up a bit, but no... :(

message 43: by Amy (new)

Amy (fantasydream3) You know when people ask about why a past relationship didn't work and someone answers: "it was just all about sex"? This saying reminds me of Kiyo and Eugenie's relationship. Not only is he selfish, I can hardly remember any scene with them together that wasn't a sex scene (especially in Thorn Queen). I definitely like Dorian more because he seems to really "get" Eugenie and is willing to stand by her and be supportive. Eugenie and Dorian have more going on besides sex; I feel like they are true partners.

message 44: by Bookobsessed (new)

Bookobsessed (amaryllis214) | 9 comments Dorian reminds me of Eric Northman from Charlaine Harris' series, True Blood. If any of you have read that series, Eric's initial motives were only for his area and his child Pam, and he didn't care about anyone else. But as the series progressed, it became obvious that Eric loves Sookie more than he's ever love anyone. No, he's not perfect but he is always upfront and honest with her, would never cheat on her, and puts her on a pedestal. I think Dorian is the same way. Should he not care about a dream that he's had for decades-to expand his kingdom and power-even if he has to relinquish the human world? I think that if it came down to it, Dorian would settle for the Otherworld alone than try to take over the human world if it meant he would lose Eugenie otherwise. He loves her, and that's not in the big things, but in the small things like when he dug copper out for her or killed Liam in her honor or wouldn't pressure her after the rape to be with him. He was the one who kept telling her she wasn't ready. Dorian is definitely the alpha-male (just like Eric Northman) and if we expect him to change into a submissive character who won't lead or stand firm, but follows and is whipped like the male characters in Laurell K Hamilton's series, then I think we should reconsider what kind of man we want for Eugenie. Or, for that matter, ourselves. ;)

message 45: by FlibBityFLooB (last edited Feb 20, 2011 10:54AM) (new)

FlibBityFLooB I'm very excited about book 3 coming out this week. I plan to re-read books 1 & 2 in anticipation. I got my husband to start reading Storm Born last night. He's enjoying it so far.

message 46: by FlibBityFLooB (last edited Mar 30, 2011 11:26AM) (new)

FlibBityFLooB So, I finished Iron Crowned a few days ago and am curious what others think about some of the developments. I'll use the spoiler tag...

(view spoiler)

What do you think?

message 47: by Bookobsessed (new)

Bookobsessed (amaryllis214) | 9 comments Flib, I totally agree with you! Read my review of Iron Crowned, I can't post it here, it has too many spoilers. But seriously, I wouldn't take her back if I was Dorian-it wasn't an excuse at all! And yeah, I haven't liked Kiyo since book one & that hasn't changed now either.

message 48: by Sophie (new)

Sophie | 4 comments Flib and Adrianne, I agree too.
I've never liked Kiyo: he's always been a self-absorbed prick, having unjustified demands while being nothing! Even though Dorian is not perfect, he remains true to his nature and everything he does (whether it be right or wrong), he does it while thinking about consequences for him, Eugénie, and his people which means that sometimes he forgets about the human (or rather "gentry") factor in the equation "for the greater good" like many monarchs. Kiyo can't claim that, and I don't think he's ever brought anything positive ti Eugénie.

But I must say Eugénie's behaviour in book 3 really disappointed me, and I'm not sure I'd take her back if I was Dorian, she's too stupid!

message 49: by Krish (new)

Krish (Krazy_KD) | 9 comments AjdhkwansshaikBs....... LOVE Dorian! I absolutely adored the first 2 books but I'm afraid to say book 3 fell flat. I dunno, I felt like richelle mead sort of hurried everything along... It felt rushed?


And I hated the baby being kiyo... But I loved the conflict. I did dislike some of Eugine's actions but I think it's more ms.mead rushing everything. Can't wait what happens next. Although I didn't like kiyo to begin with, I did feel that ms.mead was a bit rash about his sudden character change and turning him to a baby murderer. Oh well. We'll see how it goes. I still love dorian ;D

message 50: by Linette (new)

Linette (linette183) I so go for Dorian. Kiyo has issues. He's really self-centered. Dorian is so supportive and I think all Kiyo wants is to seduce Eugenie. Dorian is amazing.

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