Comfort Reads discussion
Chit Chat
>
Learning a new language
Claudette wrote: "Li, I can relate to your mixing up alphabets! I learn both Latin and Classical Greek and sometimes find myself using a Greek letter in Latin (in fact, in English sometimes!) - the sound of the let..."Talking about mixing up languages, I was answering an essay-type question for a Social Studies exam in grade nine, and I had written about two pages single spaced, when I glanced down and realised that I had been writing in German.
I think that it is probably easier to learn how to speak a language when you learn it as a young child, but I don't think that the same applies for learning how to read and write a language. For example, I was ten years old when we immigrated to Canada from Germany, my brother was eight and my sister was five. Both my brother and my sister are bilingual in German and English (like I am), but they also do not speak English with a German accent, while I have kept mine (not a strong German accent, but a bit of an accent nevertheless, maybe more of a German tone of voice and cadence when I speak). However, my written English, my vocabulary etc. is better than my siblings, I am more fluent writing and reading English than I am speaking English. I also think that many people read or hear that it is harder to learn a foreign language when older and become discouraged and do not even want to try. I say, go for it and concentrate on what your strengths are, the rest will follow suite.
That is really interesting, Gundula.Thank you for that quotation, Claudette! It's really reassuring to hear something like that.
I've always told myself that if I want to learn a language badly enough, then I'd be able to at any age. I wasn't about to let what many others think stop me.
Lindsey wrote: "That is really interesting, Gundula.Thank you for that quotation, Claudette! It's really reassuring to hear something like that.
I've always told myself that if I want to learn a language badly..."
That's a good attitude Lindsey. I always get frustrated when people tell me that they do not want to try to learn German because German has somehow gotten the reputation that it is a hard language to learn. If you get a good and logical grammar book or a good and logical textbook (and a teacher who takes his/her time to explain grammar, provide examples and relevant and interesting practice exercises) you'd be surprised how accessible the language really is. The point is, don't listen to others, take the chance, you can always drop out if you find learning a new language too difficult, but you should at least give it a try if you are interested.
Thanks for the encouragement :D German is actually on my list to learn. The little bit I saw of the grammar once looked like fun.
Lindsey wrote: "Thanks for the encouragement :D German is actually on my list to learn. The little bit I saw of the grammar once looked like fun."
German will be easier if you have a bit of an understanding of English grammar. I used to recommend the following book to my students, English Grammar for Students of German. And, the following is a also great resource (it's more for intermediate students, but it is in English and basically handbook of German grammar), Handbuch Zur Deutschen Grammatik: Wiederholen Und Anwenden. There are lots of German textbooks available, I have taught from the following quite often and find it pretty good as an elementary textbook, Treffpunkt Deutsch: Grundstufe (I have not used the fifth edition, but I am familiar with the earlier ones).
Thank you! Those are really helpful recommendations. I'll have to make a language learning shelf and put all those on there. I was always good with English grammar (probably why I never feared learning different languages), but I'm sure there's so much I don't know and some things I've forgotten.
Lindsey wrote: "Thank you! Those are really helpful recommendations. I'll have to make a language learning shelf and put all those on there. I was always good with English grammar (probably why I never feared lear..."Lindsey, I have a whole bunch of language and linguistic books shelved. You might want to browse those. And, I'm glad I could be of help.
Gundula, et al. I have just finished reading My Father's Paradise, where the family were Jews who still lived in the isolated mountains of northern Irag - and still spoke Aramaic. They emigrated to Israel/US after the war. The father, Yona, later became a professor at UCLA. He was able to comprise a dictionary of Aramaic, the language of Jesus. The area they lived in was also predominately Kurdish. Both parties lived together in harmony - The Kurds would not smoke on a particular Jewish Holiday which I am too lazy to look up in the book. I thought you might be interested in this.
Maude wrote: "Gundula, et al. I have just finished reading My Father's Paradise, where the family were Jews who still lived in the isolated mountains of northern Irag - and still spoke Aramaic. They emigrated to..."That sounds so interesting, Maude. I will have to put it on my to-read shelf.
It WAS interesting. When you get it read, please let me know what you thought.
For anyone who is interested, here is the link to the book My Father's Paradise: A Son's Search for His Jewish Past in Kurdish Iraq.And, I will let you know what I think of the novel once I get a chance to read it (might be a while, though).
Thanks for the putting the link up Gundula. No problem with time - I totally unhderstand since I have books I have meant to read for years!
F-I-N-A-L-L-Y I found the tread about Ariel Sabar's book My Father's Paradise. Wasn't it fabulous Maude?!!!! Sorry, I should have thought to add it here. I was just so happy when I saw several were adding this book! It is superbe. This is the language thread and of course I cannot remember the correct spelling of superbe. I might be using the French spelling....
Oh, Crissie, I loved it!!! It was SOOO interesting - I couldn't put it down. And what a save of the Aramaic (sp) language. Fascinating, and I loved so many of the people involved - especially the interaction of the Jews and the Kurds. Superb-without the e. Are you French?
Gundula wrote: "Li, one time when I was teaching a first year language course (German) at university, one of my students was taking both first year German and first year Russian. Every once in a while I would get answers to written assignments in Russian lettering, it's sure easy to mix up languages (especially if they are closely related, I always mix up French and Spanish).I'm sure you will be able to pick up some Italian when in Italy, I'm envious (and, if you can read French alright, it might help you with learning Italian, but it might also result in mixing up the languages, like I do with French and Spanish). Anyhow, I hope you have fun. Man, I wish I was at university again, I miss taking courses etc. "
lol, I can only imagine (I'd probably end up doing the same if I were in the student's position as well!).
Thanks! The last time I was in Italy, I had started picking up little bits of Italian here and there so I'm pretty psyched at picking up some more (provided all my paperwork processes through okay; I'm still waiting for my invitation letter from the university =S).
Claudette wrote: "3665492 Li, I can relate to your mixing up alphabets! I learn both Latin and Classical Greek and sometimes find myself using a Greek letter in Latin (in fact, in English sometimes!) - the sound of the letter has obviously become firmly linked in my brain to the corresponding Greek letter (for example, a Greek letter that looks like v actually sounds like an n but I often use the v for an n) "
lol, I like your example with the Greek letter because I do the same thing (the Cyrillic letter for the sound "N" is "H" so when I'm writing in English, sometimes I write "H" in place of "N" xD)!
Maude, concerning My Father's Paradise, which BTW I read last year, I absolutely adored reading about how all the different religions lived in peace together in his natal village. They all respected each other's beliefs. No, I am not French. i don't quite know who I am. I am born in the US and lived there until I was 19. Then I moved to Sweden where I have lived most of my life. Sweden feels most like home to me, BUT in Sweden they don't see me as a Swede and in America I don't fit either any more. We have lived in Belgium for 12 years. I cannot believe time has passed so quickly. I still struggle with French, but I manage. I adore Brittany, France. We spend all the time we possibly can there . Once in Basel Switzerland a policeman asked my my nationality, and I just stared at him. He got really annoyed, but I didn't know what to answer! A tran had bashed into our car!!! I guess I am just me, a funny mixture of many countries :0)
Chrissie wrote: "Maude, concerning My Father's Paradise, which BTW I read last year, I absolutely adored reading about how all the different religions lived in peace together in his natal village. They all respecte..."I can certainly relate to this, Chrissie (I feel neither completely German nor completely Canadian). If anyone asks you your nationality again, say that you are a member of the global community or something similar. I sometimes say that I am Pan-European-Canadian (of course, for official purposes, that does not work).
Gundula, the policeman really got mad at me. At that point I totally forgot he was a policeman and got mad back. Quite simply if any tran hits your car in Basel, the car driver is at fault. There is a law that says you must be 2 meters outside the tram marks painted on the street. 2 meters OUTSIDE them!!! We were completely still and the tram bashed into us slowly while he turned. He had no intention of stopping. He knew he would hit us. It was an unbelievable to experience. The car driver is always wrong, we were told, so there was no point in complaining to any authority AND the first thing that happened was that the policeman and the tram drive shook hands and laughed together. They were buddies. We were totally shocked!!!
Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, the policeman really got mad at me. At that point I totally forgot he was a policeman and got mad back. Quite simply if any tran hits your car in Basel, the car driver is at fault. There i..."Pretty bad. I wonder if the policeman would have gotten as mad at you etc. if you had had a Swiss license plate? Although I have personally never experienced this (it is thus just hear-say), I have had family and friends state that if you get caught driving above the speed limit in Switzerland and have foreign license plates, you will likely receive a fine, while the police often don't bother even charging Swiss speeders.
Chrissie, What a horrible experience! Ugh. I feel comfortable driving in the U.S. and in Canada, but I'd hesitate to drive elsewhere, especially in those countries where they drive on the other side of the road. I wouldn't trust myself to keep it straight.
Lisa, the worst was that the tram driver and the policeman were big buddies!!! There are lines drawn on the streets for where the tram goes but no you have to be 2 meters OUTSIDE those lines. We were so mad that we immediately left Switzerland. Another time in Switzerland a guy bumped into me and stole my purse!!! I don't like Switzerland, but in the southern part there is a cool museum about Giocometti.....that I wish I could visit. I don't think we ever will. Two bad experiences are enough. It is only in Great Britain where they drive on the left side of the street. Everywhere else in Europe it is on the right. :0) OK Geneva is very pretty with the lake. So are other towns but.....And all the gas stations are closed on Sunday. I could go on and on, the funny things you notice. But this is exactly why living in Europe is fun - you readily see the different customs and cultures, the different ways of doing things. That I like!
Chrissie wrote: "Lisa, the worst was that the tram driver and the policeman were big buddies!!!"Yes, that part bothered me most too. But the whole experience sounds horrible.
Lisa, oh, it was!Gundula, it is nice to know there are others who fit nowhere..... We are not alone, and we both are so unmechanical too! :0) I could break any little gadget!
I've always found that the French part of Switzerland is much more relaxed and easy-going that the German part of Switzerland. Most of the Swiss-French people I have met have been really nice and actually strived to talk French with me when they realised that I could and wanted to communicate in French (albeit slowing down their rate of talking so I could keep up, which was really appreciated). I don't really have major problems with the German areas of Switzerland, but they are generally not as pleasant and relaxing (for me) as the French areas (I have never been in the Italian areas).
Chrissie wrote: "Lisa, oh, it was!Gundula, it is nice to know there are others who fit nowhere..... We are not alone, and we both are so unmechanical too! :0) I could break any little gadget!"
I also get angry at gadgets, like the phone etc. I sometimes think that the gadgets are deliberately out to get me. Like my laptop computer. I have a DVD stuck in it and I cannot get it out of the slot. I think that the area might be a bit caved in because when I type, I lean heavily on the area where the DVD slot is. Really not smart, but I tend to forget that when I'm typing.
Gundula, I tightened my battery into my insulin pump too hard and wrecked it...... Not good. I can break anything. Interesting that the French people in Switzerland are more relaxed.
Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, I tightened my battery into my insulin pump too hard and wrecked it...... Not good. I can break anything. Interesting that the French people in Switzerland are more relaxed."Can you get a new pump, that's kind of an essential apparatus for you. I can break anything too. I cracked the top of my ceramic stovetop when I opened a cupboard and a whole bunch of objects tumbled out onto the top of the stove (and of course there was glass involved as well).
Well, my view of the French Swiss is not scientific at all, it stems from my own personal experiences.
Gundula, you notice things about people of different cultures.... They are often rather correct! I have two pumps! Thank goodness! My hospital leant me a second b/c I was leaving for Brittany. I need two that function. The hospital is very good in helping me out!BTW, even the French speaking people in Belgium are different from the French and France itself has many diffeent "cultiures". Oh, I will send you a book that I have about this on my French shelf..... I will add it in a new comment when I find it! It is about the different cultures and languages in France!
Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, this is the book I was talking about.discovery of france"Thanks I added it, one of these days, Mount TBR will collapse, but I don't care.
It is good but not what I had planned!
Chrissie wrote: "It is good but not what I had planned!"I read your review, and I think I'll give it a chance. Maybe the library will have a copy.
Hi everyone, I speak native Slovakian, English is my seconde language, and I started learning French in Sydney-Australia, when I previously lived for couple years, but I still continue learning this language.
Being American first language is English. I was stationed in West Germany for 2 years where I learned just enough German to get me around and go shopping. I took Spanish in highschool and my ex was Puerto Rican, so I've got a basic understanding of Spanish but nowhere near fluent. In my broken spanish I used to help customers at work when no-one else could help them. Between my broken spanish and their broken english we usually were able to piece enough together to get what we needed done. I can only read children's books in spanish. For awhile could read a comic book in German. lol
ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Being American first language is English. I was stationed in West Germany for 2 years where I learned just enough German to get me around and go shopping. I took Spanish in highschool and my ex was..."What I have found reall annoying is that some people will in no way TRY and understand what you are saying. I ran into this in Sweden when we first moved there. My Swedish was bad but at least I was trying. I remember I had to order a ticket and this woman couldn't understand what I was saying, so I spelled the word to her...... I wasn't about to give up!!! I have ONLY run into this in Sweden! Never in Belgium or France, with the French language. Some people aren't very nice, but most people are very helpful as long as they see you are struggling to learn the language.
Last month my british fiance was visiting from England and we went to my highschool reunion at a local racetrack in Nebraska. He went by himself to go buy refreshments. He said he had to tell the woman 8 times! that he wanted to buy (bottled) water before she understood what he wanted. That's ridiculous!! He was speaking english! His accent isn't that bad, trust me. lol Also, they only sold nacho's, hotdogs, beer and water, so how hard could it be for her to guess which of the four he was trying to buy???!!!! He was so embarrassed but honestly, it wasn't his fault the clerk was an idiot.When I was stationed in West Germany I remember having trouble my first time to use the automated machine that sold bus tickets. About 8 Germans stood around and I asked in English if anyone could help me and nobody said a word or moved. I said "Sprechen zie Englesh?" (However it's spelled, which is "Does anyone speak English?" in German) and suddenly several people stepped forward to help me, in English. I had to properly ask them in German before they would then help me in English. Odd, but helpful once you learned what they expected.
ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Last month my british fiance was visiting from England and we went to my highschool reunion at a local racetrack in Nebraska. He went by himself to go buy refreshments. He said he had to tell the w..."So I am not alone! I do think it helps enormously to just try and speak the native language! that episode with the water is hysterical.....
Briansgirl, I always tell myself - it is a matter of choice. You can choose to laugh rather than cry.....
ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "I said "Sprechen zie Englesh?" (However it's spelled, which is "Does anyone speak English?" in German) and suddenly several people stepped forward to help me, in English. I had to properly ask them in German before they would then help me in English. Odd, but helpful once you learned what they expected. "As a European, I can think of a couple of reasons why this would happen. For one thing, we honestly can get more than a bit fed up with Americans or other native English-speakers coming around and expecting everyone to speak their language while making no effort to learn even simple words in the language of the country. German is a big language with an important cultural history, and I think it can happen that they find it arrogant to just expect them to speak English without even trying in German and showing that you don't think everyone in the world should speak English.
Another reason, though, can be just a very practical one: not everyone in Europe speaks good English, and especially, we're not really accustomed here to hearing American English. We get taught British English at school, and we're more likely to hear that than American English. I have really good English skills and I still find it difficult to follow what Americans say, just because I'm much less accustomed to hearing that accent, and it is not one of the clearest languages in the world. So it could even be that none of those people were sure what language you were speaking before you specified it, or they weren't sure they'd be able to speak it well enough to communicate with you.
So basic tips for Americans travelling to Europe: if you speak English, speak as un-American-ly, slowly and clearly as you can. And if you can speak the local language, it can help you do start with that. Though when I was living in Hungary and knew a bit of Hungarian, if I started asking in Hungarian "Do you speak English or German" the answer was "Well, you speak Hungarian so we can just talk in Hungarian!" But around there few people are really comfortable talking in English, so I understand.
Chrissie, about your experiences with Swedish, I think one of the problems might be that we in small Scandinavian countries aren't really used to anyone learning our language. Hearing our language spoken with a foreign accent can just be seriously difficult to decipher for anyone who doesn't routinely deal with foreigners, or is not used to foreigners with your particular accent. It doesn't necessarily mean anyone's trying to be rude. I certainly don't always find it easy to understand foreigners who are speaking Finnish, those few times I hear it. And if the foreigner hasn't really learned our language's way of pronouncing things but uses some other language's phonemes, intonation etc. it's nearly impossible to understand even with the best of will, especially if we don't know their language of origin. It's a bit different for people whose language is much more often learned by foreigners so they more routinely have to deal with foreign accents.
It was on the corner across the street from the american military base. It wouldn't have been a surprise to find an american standing there. Quite frankly, I kinda thought they were rude since they saw me struggling for several minutes and obviously couldn't figure the ticket machine out and when I asked for help, nobody did anything at first until I tried again and I only spoke three words in german. Honestly, I get sick of everyone having a bad stereotype of americans when most of us aren't that way. Telling us to speak as unamerican like as possible, to me, comes off as a bit rude.
Chrissie wrote: "ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Being American first language is English. I was stationed in West Germany for 2 years where I learned just enough German to get me around and go shopping. I ..."I liked that about France and the French part of Switzerland. I got into some real cool conversations that way. It was the same in Quebec City, people would continue to speak French, they would just slow it down a bit (funny, how so many Anglo Canadians have had trouble in Quebec, I've never had problems, but I also did not assume that anyone would understand me if I spoke English, I tried using French right from the start). The only place that was a bit of a bother was Montreal, where people thought that they were doing me a favour speaking English to me (until they realised that I wanted to speak French, I also think some of them were looking to practice their English).
When I was in Mannheim, Germany, for a student exchange in the early 90s, I met quite a lot of Americans who were stationed in the city. Some of them had managed to learn a bit of German (or even quite a bit of German), but there were others who had been stationed in Germany for almost ten years and could basically speak no German, read no German etc. However, if they went into the city to do shopping (if they went off the base), they basically assumed that people would speak English to them. And, yes, many Germans have learned English in school and many can speak English quite well. But, there are people (especially of the older generation) who do not speak and/or understand English, and even if they do understand the language, they sometimes get a bit annoyed at the fact that English speakers especially, always assume or expect everyone to speak English. Now, my policy is usually to make an effort to speak the language of the place where I am residing or traveling to as much as possible. And, if that is in an area where I do not know the language at all, I will at least learn some basic stock phrases and vocabulary, as well as the sentence "I do not speak that language very well" and/or "Do you speak English" I've also managed to converse in German or French as a lingua franca in an area where I did not know the native language. Generally, though, if traveling to a country where I do not know the language, I will try to learn as much about the language and the culture as possible before I leave.
Hmm, what Chrissie was saying about people not being able to understand her when she spoke Swedish rings true for me as well. I think it also has to do with some of us being more of a visual learner than an auditory learner. When I was learning English, I became adept at writing and reading the language much quicker than speaking or being able to understand it orally. Also, and I think many people who have had to learn English as a second or a foreign language, will agree with me here. English is often a real chore to pronounce correctly; there are so many homonyms and some words just boggle the mind when one tries to pronounce them (like enough, for instance). For me, for instance, being German, I can often decipher written Dutch and some of the Scandinavian languages like Swedish, but if someone were to speak the language to me, I would be lost. But, then, I am a completely visual language learner and phonetics etc. has always been my weakest part.
ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Last month my british fiance was visiting from England and we went to my highschool reunion at a local racetrack in Nebraska. He went by himself to go buy refreshments. He said he had to tell the w..."I had the same problem in Germany, I couldn't figure out the machine that sold tickets either. But, because I am totally fluent in German, they thought I was being a smart-ass, as I asked how to use the machine in perfect German. Finally, I told them in exasperated German that I might be fluent in German but that I had not lived in Germany since I was ten years old. That finally got their attention, but it also made me miss my train, as everyone wanted to know what Canada was like.
Katri, we emigrated to Sweden. That is why the first thing I did was to learn the language. I am not saying that all Swedes behave this way! You know when you are dealing with a person who simply does not want to understand or help. In Sweden most people are VERY well acquainted with English. I was 18 when I emigrated to Sweden. Most everyone was helpful, and we just laughed and laughed at my silly pronounciation. I STILL cannot get some words right. Swedish Rs are hopeless for me. I am NOT talented linguistically. There was no excuse for the women's behavior to me when I was ordering that ticket, except maybe she was simply having a bad day :0) Come on now, one knows when someone is quite simply just being "difficult". I have in fact now lived in Europe more than 40 years. I consider myself more European than American. However, as I have mentioned before I really don't fit in anywhere. A Swede will not consider me REALLY Swedish, and I do not think I would fit easily into America anymore either. I am certainly not Belgian, and just b/c we spend lots of time in France that does not make me French. A particular country's culture is something that is absorbed by living in that country for many years. I think my feeling of not belonging anywhere is not uncommon in today's world. It is NOT necessarily a bad thing. You appreciate the good things of each country.But that lady selling me that ticket was certainly having a bad day. It was no more than that.
ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Telling us to speak as unamerican like as possible, to me, comes off as a bit rude. "I did not mean it that way. I just meant the factual thing: most people in Europe find it harder to decipher American than British accents because we're not taught them at school and do not hear them routinely. Just like if I spoke Finnish to someone who doesn't speak it as a native, I'd know I have to try to tone down any regional dialect I may have in my speech. It's no more than acknowledging facts of what people can be expected to know, it's not saying that one regional accent is inherently better or worse than another.
Katri wrote: "ஐ Briansgirl "Book Sale Queen"ஐ wrote: "Telling us to speak as unamerican like as possible, to me, comes off as a bit rude. "I did not mean it that way. I just meant the factual thing: most peopl..."
Exactly, just like you would not understand me if I spoke a regional dialect of German (like Bavarian) instead of the standard language, or if a visitor from Great Britain were talking to you in broadest Yorkshire. We had a case at the University of Waterloo, where one of the exchange students from Mannheim simply refused to tone down his regional dialect and got offended when some of the students, particularly those who had learned German as a second or third language could not understand him (even I had trouble deciphering his German, and I'm supposed to be bilingual). I sometimes get a real kick out of German instructors, who try to teach their students slang or regional dialects. Nothing against that, but in my opinion, one needs to wait with that until the students have mastered the standard language (at least to a point where they are comfortable with it). Also, if one teaches students slang (not just how to recognise it, but how to use it), one needs to make sure, students know when to use slang and when not to use slang. That is not so much of a problem with English, but in German, there is a definite difference between the standard language and regional dialects and between "slang" and the standard language (you would not want to use slang at a job interview, and that sometimes happens if students have been taught slang, but have not been taught when to use slang and when not to do that).
I find I have to think about this a lot when I speak to my German relatives in English. They understand and speak the language pretty well but I forget sometimes that the words I choose to use in English are part of my day to day "slang" and not necessarily the ones that they would recognize having been taught the more British style of English.
You know what is really funny about my German "slang." When I use certain idiomatic expressions in Germany, people will sometimes look at me and wonder if I am a throw-back to the 70s. You see, some of my German slang is slang that was popular in the early 70s when I was a child. As slang is often modern, up-to-date and fashionable, my slang is somewhat stuck in the 70s, because we moved to Canada in the 70s, so I don't know that much of what is the common slang in Germany at present. My standard German is fine, but I actually get comments from German relatives etc. that I tend to sound too academic, oh well (but, better to sound too academic than to use slangy expressions in the wrong place, I've done that with some French expressions).
I'm on my second year of high school french, I'm one of the more zealous students who just wants to soak up as much french as possible
Comfort Reads
Books mentioned in this topic
The Discovery Of France (other topics)The Discovery Of France (other topics)
My Father's Paradise: A Son's Search for His Jewish Past in Kurdish Iraq (other topics)
My Father's Paradise: A Son's Search for His Jewish Past in Kurdish Iraq (other topics)
Handbuch zur Deutschen Grammatik : Wiederholen und Anwenden (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ariel Sabar (other topics)Betty Schrampfer Azar (other topics)
Someone else mentioned earlier about the advantage of learning languages early and how hard it can be to learn a language late in life. I tend to agree but am comforted by what W. Somerset Maugham had to say about starting Greek later in life:
"When I was young I was amazed at Plutarch's statement that the elder Cato began at the age of eighty to learn Greek. I am amazed no longer. Old age is ready to undertake tasks that youth shirked because they would take too long."
Now, that's what it is to be older *and* wiser! : )