Thread Of Dire Judgment

[Sasha]

Says the woman who gave The Green Mile five stars and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight two. *cough*

[Mary]

I stand by my stars, Alex.

*walking away with dignity*

[Sasha]

Dignity has no place on this thread, Mary!

[Juniper]

Rosemary, I didn't know Kevin Kline did Hamlet. I love him too, actually, but...that casting makes me raise an eyebrow."

Kline as Bottom in a Midsummer Night's Dream is one thing, but Hamlet? I was unawares! Apparently best to stay that way?? :D (I do, generally, like Kevin Kline too.)

[Liz]

Alex wrote: "Liz - Keanu, you mean? Really? Well, bust my face.

Rosemary, I didn't know Kevin Kline did Hamlet. I love him too, actually, but...that casting makes me raise an eyebrow."
No, actually, I meant Branagh. Sorry about the lack of clarity there.

[Sasha]

Ahhhhh. That makes a lot more sense. :)

[Katie]

Lauren wrote: "Katie- I've seen As You Like It and Much Ado About Nothing (I saw the later before having to read it).

And I stand by my Black Stallion books-I read them first when I was quite young and enjoyed..."

Oh, I loved the Black Stallion movie when I was a kid. I was just astounded by the number. Don't they get predictable after a while?

I've never read more than one book in a series. I figure I've met the characters, I get the idea. Why repeat the past when there are so many great books out there? I'm currently trying to read The Two Towers in recognition that Lord of the Rings is actually a novel in parts rather than a series. Still, I'm finding it tedious. I really liked reading the first one (six to seven years ago). *sigh* To each her own.

Moore is a fun writer, though his plots are fairly ridiculous and contrived. I loved Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal but didn't care much for A Dirty Job. Difference is the subject of Lamb is just so much more interesting to me. (I'm pretty much fascinated by religion, in general.) I thought A Dirty Job was predictable, and while I see that Moore was pretending to depth with the whole meaning of life/death thing, it didn't have much of an effect on me. In fact, it kind of turned me off. So, yeah, 2*. Deal with it.

[Katie]

Mary wrote: "What?? Someone is hatin' on the Black Stallion books? That sends a knife right through my stony little heart!



Well, Katie, I just compared my books to yours and it seems we have pretty simil..."

Wow, Mary, I've never had 80 percent similarity with someone before. Only 3* for Caucasia, though? *cocks eyebrow* I loved that book.

Not to burst your judgmental bubble, but I admit that I overrated The Secret Life of Bees. It was given to me by a close friend who loved it, so I felt obligated to give it the best I could. I agree with your 3* rating.

I'm glad to see you loved Saving Fish from Drowning: A Novel. I need to read that one soon; I've been "borrowing" it for about a year now. It's good to see I'll enjoy it. Hey, you want to screen all my books for me from now on? Just no historical fiction, please.

[Sasha]

Katie, I've never heard anyone say the "one book in a series" thing. Weird! Don't you want to...know how it ends?

[Jayme]

Yeah, I'm exactly the opposite, Katie, because I have to know how it ends. Even when the series gets really long and stupid, I keep trudging on.

[Kaion]

I would note that Katie has read Persepolis 2: The Story of a Return (though the version I read had both parts, so that is not much of a note). Talk about overrated, though.

On one hand, what of all the better sequels I would've missed! On the other hand, think of all the time I wasted continuing a series, hoping it would improve itself (or being told it would improve itself) or regain some high point.

[Sasha]

If we made some kind of chart showing series quality over time, I bet we'd come out in Katie's favor: while some sequels measure up or even exceed, most series show a downhill trend.

So Katie's strategy may well be right, statistically speaking. But in real life, we humans need to know how it ends.

I'm pretty sure I've empirically proven that Katie is an unstoppable murderous cyborg.

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads]

Why didn't you like A Wrinkle in Time, Katie?

ETA: The best % similar ranking I've ever gotten was 81%. With my mother and a friend in Sweden (both of whom really do have very similar tastes in books!).

[Kaion]

I suspect that percentage thing is whack anyway. I think it might consider a "to-read" designation akin to a 3-star rating, and unread books akin to a 1-star rating. Verifying this would involve math and I'm terribly lazy (and would have to account for the fact that the scale has no zero, which is troublesome for the mathematics).

A Wrinkle in Time. 3 stars is not a dislike rating (she said defensively). It's been a very very long time since I read it, but from what I remember I liked some of the ideas, especially with the tessarect. I think I found the characters incredibly cutesy (and their "special"ness rather trying, rather than endearing). I think the biggest problem is I didn't feel any thematic/emotional connection to the story, but I was incredibly young in my reading career so I didn't know why, until about Many Waters, where I recognized that my world view and L'Engle's were incredibly divergent.*

*Also notable as the first time I really noticed Christian ideology in fiction.

[Bridgit]

only one book in a series ever? ? ? but...wha?...but how...? I dont even know how to respond to that...

Admittedly, like TV shows, a lot of series can go on just too long. But there are SO MANY series that you just have to read as a whole! Especially ones that are told as an entire story, or have plot details running throughout.

I mean, I can understand not reading all of Sue Graftons or Patricia Cornwell or most detective-style novels where the stories are stand-alone. but ALL??? wow. you have a lot more discipline than I. No way was I not going to find out what happened when Harry finally met He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named, or what happens to sexy time travelling highlanders, or...

What about the books where the sequels are about the secondary characters? The people you meet in one book that you really want to know more about?? or practically any fantasy series ... or ...or...CLIFFHANGERS?? How can you stand letting a cliffhanger stand?

[Mary]

Jayme wrote: "Yeah, I'm exactly the opposite, Katie, because I have to know how it ends. Even when the series gets really long and stupid, I keep trudging on."


This is why I keep reading Jonathan Kellerman's "Alex Delaware" novels. He started phoning it in several years ago yet I keep buying the books. And I am unable to give less than a "3 Star (I liked it)" rating, because.....I don't know why.

[Bridgit]

Mary wrote: "Jayme wrote: "Yeah, I'm exactly the opposite, Katie, because I have to know how it ends. Even when the series gets really long and stupid, I keep trudging on."


This is why I keep reading Jonat..."

I think I read the first 7 or 8 of his and then stopped. Probably about 10 years ago. I checked one out a few weeks ago to see if I would like it again and, nope. Still pretty formulaic.

BUT I was very glad I read them up UNTIL the point that he started 'phoning it in'

[Chantelle]

OMG, I could never do the one book in a series thing. I have to continue - I HAVE to find out how they all end! (and yes, I apparently have issues...)

I even read
Scarlett and Cosette: The Sequel to Les Miserables because I had to find out what happened to everyone!

Closure. That's what it is. I need closure.

[Mary]

Chantelle wrote: "OMG, I could never do the one book in a series thing. I have to continue - I HAVE to find out how they all end! (and yes, I apparently have issues...)

I even read
Scarlett and [..."

Four stars for Scarlett. I am speechless.

[Juniper]

Hmm.

I am with you, Katie, on the series thing. I have never really gotten into series books. In my wee mind a series is either laziness for a writer or a comfort zone they are afraid to emerge from for fear of the unknown. Wouldn't you agree that, with books in a series, it is basically same story different setting (or different thorn in the side of the main character).

Someone commented about one particular series jumping the shark after book 7 or 8 and from then on "phoning it in". I am amazed it endured so well to reach book 7 or 8.

Frankly, I am more interested in what else a writer can do and I don't want to participate in a franchise of sameness.

I'm just saying.

[Kaion]

Depends on what we call a series, I suppose. It is a strength of serialized story-telling when it builds upon what you know about the characters already to concisely make an impact. When people talk about TV shows, for example, I all too often hear about "character development".

[Chantelle]

Lol Mary, it's all about affection and loyalty. And being an overall high grader.

[Bridgit]

I dont think there is any argument that there are plenty of bad or formulaic series. But there are also PLENTY of series that are neither.

And in my opinion, if an author is doing their job right, you should WANT to keep reading about that character or that setting

[Joyce]

Donna wrote: "I didn't really love The Road and I didn't read any of the other books you are talking about but I tlike this idea of a thread. I can get this going ready.....

I really REALLY hated ..."

I hated Lovely Bones too!!!! What was with that ending?!?! C'mon! There should have been some justice! Am I allowed to add spoilers?!

[Rosalie]

I used to try to finish all the books I started----not any more. Life is too short to read bad books.
THE POSTMISTRESS has been one of the worst books I started in many years. I bought it on the recommendation of other readers. It had received so many 5 star ratings, I thought it would be good...was I ever wrong.

[Katie]

Happy to have outraged you all. Let's see if I can respond to all of these pro-series comments in one post.

Alex wrote: "Katie, I've never heard anyone say the "one book in a series" thing. Weird! Don't you want to...know how it ends?"

Apparently not. I guess I think of a book as a complete work and I expect it to be whole. So...it did end. Honestly, I think I could handle never knowing if the hobbits made it to Mordor.

Kaion wrote: "I would note that Katie has read Persepolis 2: The Story of a Return (though the version I read had both parts, so that is not much of a note). Talk about overrated, though."

Aghh! You caught me. I completely forgot that I read Persepolis 2. In my defense, I didn't seek it out. I had an hour or so to kill in the library and it called out to me and promised to be short. (Oh, and it wasn't as good as the first. Not by a long yard.)

What do you mean overrated? How could you possibly dislike a graphic novel about the Iranian cultural revolution. What's wrong with you?

Alex wrote: "I'm pretty sure I've empirically proven that Katie is an unstoppable murderous cyborg."

You know, I never wrote an "About Me" statement on my profile, 'cause who really knows what I'm all about. I'm glad I didn't. You just wrote it for me. Thank you.

Kaion wrote: I suspect that percentage thing is whack anyway. I think it might consider a "to-read" designation akin to a 3-star rating, and unread books akin to a 1-star rating."

Ja, it's definitely not accurate. I had never thought about how the to-read books affect the calculation. I don't think it compares non-common books, though, because Mary has read several hundred (close to a thousand?) books I haven't read. You'd think that would, you know, drop our similarity rating a little.

Bridget wrote: "What about the books where the sequels are about the secondary characters? The people you meet in one book that you really want to know more about?? or practically any fantasy series ... or ...or...CLIFFHANGERS?? How can you stand letting a cliffhanger stand?"

Just to clarify, I'm not philosophically opposed to sequels. I just don't read them. I suppose if I ever felt that I absolutely had to read the sequel, I would. The one that absolutely freaks everyone out is that I never read past Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (and I probably never will). I connected with the characters while I was there, but I moved on.

I have read books with overlapping characters, namely Alice Walker's The Color Purple, The Temple of My Familiar, and Possessing the Secret of Joy. (They're not really sequels.) I didn't read the books to reconnect with the characters. I love Celie and Shug, but I love them where they belong, in The Color Purple. It didn't bother me that they came up again in other books, but I wouldn't have sought it out to see what "happens" to them. They live in the book; what happens to them has already happened. Does that make sense?

Maybe I just don't read a lot a books with cliffhangers? If I do, they don't bother me enough to make me remember them. I guess The Fellowship of the Ring has a cliffhanger ending. Didn't bother me for six+ years.

Chantelle wrote: "Closure. That's what it is. I need closure."

Isn't the end of the first book closure, though. I guess that's the disconnect for me. If it is written as a discrete work, shouldn't we consider it as such? Beginning, middle, end. Finito. The second book isn't a continuation, it's a new book. No? No. You all disagree with me. That's okay. I'm still right.

Jennifer wrote: "I am with you, Katie, on the series thing. I have never really gotten into series books."

Thank God! (Or thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you prefer.) I was beginning to feel freakishly anti-social, fickle, disloyal, and overall...cyborgish.

"Frankly, I am more interested in what else a writer can do and I don't want to participate in a franchise of sameness."

Sing it sister.

Kaion wrote: "It is a strength of serialized story-telling when it builds upon what you know about the characters already to concisely make an impact."

I get that. The author develops a short-hand. But then, the author would have to build on that short-hand to write a better story, not just use it as a crutch. I can't say whether most do or not. I'd have to read lots of sequels first.

Bridgit wrote: "And in my opinion, if an author is doing their job right, you should WANT to keep reading about that character or that setting."

And that's our fundamental disagreement. Way to break it down. To me, if the author is doing his job, the book should be complete. It might leave me unsatisfied because the resolution isn't what I would have wanted. However, the only reason I would be left wanting more is if the story was unfinished (which, to me, is just not a good book).

I understand that I am strange in this respect. But really, what do you expect from a cyborg?


Oy, this post better load...

[Kaion]

Sorry Katie, we love the new blood.

No, I definitely agree with your points. I don't generally think of books as serialized in nature (too long in between installments). I absolutely loathe authors that end stories on cliffhangers. I'm not waiting years around for that. It's a bit presumptious that they think I want to stick around for those loose ends.*

*This seems to be more of a movie problem of late though, not so much a book problem.

[Katie]

Susanna wrote: "Why didn't you like A Wrinkle in Time, Katie"

Whoops, almost forgot to answer you. It was okay. Like The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, I read this as an adult and had a hard time bringing my head back to childhood to try to appreciate it. Even as a child, though, I don't think I would have liked it. I felt that it was trying too hard to be bizarre, out-of-the-box, unpredictable. That's one of the major reasons SciFi and I don't always see eye to eye.

I agree with Kaion that it was...a bit cutesy excessively earnest. I go back and forth on that because, hey, that's children's lit. But then I think of Otherwise Known as Sheila the Great and realize that it is possible to write books for children, about children, in a way that isn't saccharine.

[Sasha]

I hate to get Judy Blume's back, but...I kinda loved Sheila the Great. I read a lot of my older sister's favorite books. Wrinkle in Time was one, too, and I loved that too.

More importantly: Sheila, behind the back low five for Flying Spaghetti Monster. We're on the same team.

[Jayme]

A side note about the series debate, but I have a theory that seven might be the magic number for a series. I've never read anything longer than seven books that didn't suck hard.

[Chantelle]

Regarding my closure comment.

Yes, I think I've come to the end of a book and gotten closure, and then WHAMMO! There's another book out! And then I have to read it.

(Of course, I would also love JK Rowling to write a spinoff about the next generation. LOL) Flame me now! :p

[Lauren]

I don't think it's possible to make a judgement about all series. Series that don't go on indefinately appeal to me more than the ones that never end. Also some are such crap that I couldn't care less what happened to the characters (totally ditched the Diana Gabaldon series after one book, no idea what all the hype was about!)

That said, I enjoyed the Harry Potter books and loved that she said there would be 7 and there were 7 and done. I've enjoyed detective series with the same character but feel like they are more like easy things to fill in between books. The easy cake reading has it's place.

[Jayme]

Oh Chantelle, that's a terrible wish! If JK ever writes another Harry Potter book I'll barf! I was really disappointed that she even wrote Tales of Beedle the Bard. She needs to do something new now.

[Juniper]

Katie wrote: "Thank God! (Or thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you prefer.) I was beginning to feel freakishly anti-social, fickle, disloyal, and overall...cyborgish."

No worries Katie. Happy to have your back. I generally throw props to Darwin, "Oh my Darwin!"; "Thank Darwin!"; "What Would Darwin Do?". It never seems to catch on, though it does amuse a lot of people. Maybe I should try the Flying Spaghetti Monster??

[Sasha]

Ergh. I meant to low five Katie. Sheila is a fictional character.

And a fist bump to you too, Jennifer.

[Chantelle]

Ugh. I have The Outlander on my kindle app and cannot invest myself in it *at all*. So maybe I'm not a total hopeless case.

[Juniper]

Alex wrote: "And a fist bump to you too, Jennifer."

Thanks, right back at ya', Alex.

[Kate]

I would love a new Harry Potter series. It could be a throw back to James and Sirius or about Harry's kids. So AWESOME! I have to admit that I actually, gulp, (am I really going to admit this?) read a HP fan fiction once.
I do love the Douglas Preston /Lincoln Child novels about Agent Pendergast. They are really good. It's a series but each novel is a stand alone story.

[Mary]

I think there's a new Agent Pendergast book coming out soon, Kate. I read those, too, though they're a bit uneven--I didn't really care for The Wheel of Darkness too much.

Fever Dream--release date 5/11

[Cindy]

Jennifer wrote: "No worries Katie. Happy to have your back. I generally throw props to Darwin, "Oh my Darwin!"; "Thank Darwin!"; "What Would Darwin Do?". It never seems to catch on, though it does amuse a lot of people."

My Darwin, that's hysterical! Since you're trying to get it to catch on, mind if I start using it? I'm curious what sort of flamewars will start on Facebook. (Do you guys have old high school "friends" who have gone cuckoo?)

Darwin bless,
Cindy

[Sasha]

Oh heck yeah. (Sorry, I started with "Oh Darwin" but it sounded too obvious.) One of my best friends from high school has gone God-crazy. Such a shame; she was the one who introduced me to REM. She keeps posting stuff like "Happy now with Jesus." She's still really smart, so we talk, but those posts are a little over the top.

[Juniper]

Hey Cindy! Alex!

Nice! :) Use away. Hmm...flame-wars and cuckoos?? Not so much of an issue amongst the people I know.

[Katie]

Cindy wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "No worries Katie. Happy to have your back. I generally throw props to Darwin, "Oh my Darwin!"; "Thank Darwin!"; "What Would Darwin Do?". It never seems to catch on, though it does ..."

Cindy--a quick look at the names of your shelves tells me we don't have much in common, but I love your resolution idea for monthly reading themes! I might have to try that.

[Katie]

Jennifer wrote: "Hmm...flame-wars and cuckoos?? Not so much of an issue amongst the people I know."

That's because your Canadian. Take a trip down south and you'll find some flamin' cuckoos.

[Juniper]

Katie wrote: "That's because your Canadian. Take a trip down south and you'll find some flamin' cuckoos."

LOL!! Sadly that could be true. Heck, we just marched Ann Coulter right back across the border - inciting hatred and racism isn't going to fly too well here (for the most part) even if she thinks it's fun. Talk about a flamin' cuckoo. I do have a friend who tells me that parading my walking Darwin fish stuck on the back of my car could get me shot in some parts of the U. S. of A. I naively like to think it would be ignored, politely! :D

[Sasha]

Yeah, I sometimes forget what the majority of my country is like. I live in Boston, where we're all gay-married atheist socialists. I didn't even realize there was a debate about evolution until relatively recently. "Really? Half the country thinks what?" I was so dismayed.

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads]

It's not news to me, LOL. (I live in South Carolina, where it's hard to go more than half a mile without running into a church, the constitutional qualifications for Governor include acknowledging "the existence of the Supreme Being," and divorce was only legalized about 60 years ago.) There's no debate about evolution down here - most people flatly don't believe in it.

Politically, nationally speaking I'm probably a conservative Democrat, and locally, of course, a Bolshevik.

[Sasha]

Lol, Susanna.

[Juniper]

Hi!

A Bolshevik? In South Carolina? I am really laughing at that comment Susanna.

Alex, the gay-married, atheist, socialists have a branch office here in Toronto; very strong membership. There is a (sort of) tiered structure to the organization so that students and unemployed artists get free membership - with all the benefits that come with that card. The current president is a former American who came to Canada in protest over the Vietnam conflict war.

[Cindy]

Katie wrote: "Cindy--a quick look at the names of your shelves tells me we don't have much in common, but I love your resolution idea for monthly reading themes! I might have to try that."

You aren't kidding! 12 books in common? haha, I should flame the both of us for that sorry stat. We could call ourselves "orthogonal friends" - combine our book lists and you fill the 3-D space with awesomeness!

I have too many cuckoo stories to share. Partly because my profession rubs creationists the wrong way - I'm a cosmologist making equipment that's used to study the origins of the Universe. Man, if there's one thing that really rubs me the wrong way is the trend towards anti-science. Really? Then give up your iPhone and gewgaws and medicines that are keeping you healthy. But I try my hardest to keep quiet and out of people's way. Golden Rule and all that.

But I'll just get back to flaming people's books here! (

Jennifer - only 2 stars for Animal Farm? Two legs bad, indeed! (But you are redeemed for your excellent review of The Gargoyle!)