The irksome and annoying...fantasy tools that we could well do without

[CekMoNSter]

Robert wrote: "For my part, I find the concept of fate to be irksome -- both in fantasy and in perceived reality. Self-determined action is far more interesting, and believable to me, than pre-determined action."

I have to agree with this.Too much of fate-interfering stories in this genre.

[R.C.]

Cave Of Forlorn
Greetings all,

I have read many of the comments here and I have to agree with the overall tone. Stories and characters that are too obvious drive me absolutely crazy. I would rather have a story that has many layers and leaves you wanting more.

Kind regards,
R.C. Rutter
www.rcrutter.com

[David]

I'd like to address a pair of observations that have been discussed considerably over the past three pages.

1. That fantasy stories are incredibly lengthy and often published across multiple volumes or "that trilogy thing".
and…
2. That fantasy stories rely too heavily on the common conventions such as stereotypical races (elves, dwarves), spellcasting, and so forth.

Over the past month, I've found a bit of a connection between these two observations. When crafting a world that doesn't exist, you have to take the time to explain to the reader what things are and why they continue to be that way. Now, if I were introducing a new character a describe him as "a bow-carrying wood elf", someone with an established knowledge of fantasy stereotypes like Tolkein, D&D or Warhammer would immediately draw several conclusions about this individual without any additional prompting. In some cases, I wouldn't even have to include "bow-carrying" as a part of his description. I can draw on pre-existing conventions to establish who he is as quickly as possible and move on to more important elements of the character or his story. I don't need to go into the fact that he probably prefers to live outdoors or hunts with that bow he carries.

How has this come to light for me recently? I'm writing a novel with a fantasy pantheon and arcane magic but set at a technology level closer to the 1860s to 1880s. As a result, I have to go to greater lengths to flesh out the world. I can't just tell you what a Master Detectress is, I have to explain it. The same goes for the Trackless Locomotive and Animated Laborers. The Fae in my book are too different from elves to just say, "they're elves." On top of that, I have to establish key technological milestones like firearms and the current printing process since those are both important to the story.

The effect? I set a basic minimum word count for the book, partly for submission to certain publishers and agents and partly as a goal for myself. I finished chapter 10 last night, the 1/3rd point in the book. I summed up the word count for each file and found myself 8,000 words ahead of where I wanted to be. I'm not going to stop, but I've had to acknowledge that I have a lot to explain to the reader. I may have more to tell than can be reasonably put between the covers of single paperback.

[Maxwell]

First and foremost, I would like to apologize in advance if my words ruffle any feathers. It is not my intent to do so, and I write this with the spirit of staying “politically correct” top of mind. This is simply my opinion, and my opinion is but a figment of your imagination, nothing more.

As a newish fantasy author, I have been immensely lucky. Winning awards, receiving wonderful reviews from both professional critics and fans alike, and developing a decent sized fan base. I am also with a publishing house that believes in my project enough to produce it in two hardback versions, two paperback versions, two audio versions, every known eBook format, and distributing them in over 70 countries world-wide. That being said, I understand and am comfortable with the fact that I am still a nobody in the literary world. But, I am a full-time author now with no other real source of income (except for my loving wife) and I have learned a few things about this industry over the past few years.

Since a portion of the people reading/posting here seem to be writers, I will include that I also teach creative writing for writers’ conferences, schools, as well as for the Library District in Las Vegas. With the majority of my students being writers, and the beauty of hindsight being 20/20 for I now know I held the same beliefs as what I will warn about here, I have had the opportunity to see writing, and more importantly, writing for a profession, in a new light.

In reading the posts in this thread, I see one main theme I would like to discuss. This is mainly directed at writers, but readers may gain an insight into the mind of a writer.

The thread started off with “language” and how horrible/wonderful “fantasy speak” can be. Moved on to villains, then lack of females, why dwarves like mead, elves, orcs, dragons, maps, glossaries, trilogies, series, etc, etc, etc.

The truth of the matter is, as a writer, none of the above matters.

The fact of the matter is, what we do as fantasy (or any fiction genre) writers is called entertainment. And entertainment is subjectional. I love people who say they hate Eragon, or Harry Potter, or Twilight. (Personally, I am not a fan of at least one of those, but I hope to eventually have just as many people “hate” my work as they do.) Because, millions are fans of them. The TV show CSI is one of the highest rated shows yet I know loads of folks who hate it.

My point is, as a writer, you will never please everyone. Ever. If you fall into the trap of pleasing someone, you will just upset another. Sure, I try to hold to some conventions. I don’t want to tell the tale of Bob the hero who rides off on his trusted steed Tim to save the princess Jill from the terrible evil dragon John. But I also understand that no one wants to follow the heroic tales of alskdfjk;h’jcvnaiosfy the mighty. Still, even though I spend an great deal of effort and time with my names (Alant, Arderi, Elith, Klain, Clytus are some of my main ones) and when I do go a bit crazy with a long name like Chandril’elian, I insure that there is a real world word equivalent (academy or school for Chandril’elian) and I use them both throughout the novel so the reader is comfortable interchanging them. I still get popped occasionally for my “fantasy speak.” Oh, and I have even had one reader say they would not read my stuff because I have one culture that uses "nix" instead of "no." Though he had no issues with anything else in my novel, the nix just killed him.

Yet, if you, as the writer, get hung up on these things, you lose track of what your job is – entertainment. My main editor, Patrick LoBrutto (editor for Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson’s Dune series, Stephen King, Isaac Asimov, Raymond Feist, and the list goes on) told me one thing that improved my writing more than any other single piece of advice I have ever been given. I believe that if you, as a writer, can understand and grasp this one concept, you will be the best writer you can be. He said, “There is one fact in this industry - every book ever written has failed to someone.”

So, tell your story. Tell it the best you can. Make it as immersive and as exciting and as page-turning as your literary skills will allow. Learn and grow and improve your literary skills as you move through this career. Some people will like what you do, and continue to buy the products you release. Others will not. And the sad truth is, if you change your work to please those that were unhappy, you run the risk of losing those that were happy.

Now, those of you who read this and think, “Wow! This guy is a self-centered jerk!” please understand. I am not saying a writer should forget the reader and just do what they want. I am saying that a writer needs to concentrate on telling a compelling story in the manner they feel is best. I, personally, like having one of my cultures say nix instead of no. To me it adds a bit of personality and flair, aiding in the reader’s immersion. And, luckily for me, the majority of my readers like it as well. But, going back to the “fantasy speak.” If you make up 200 names and words that have either never been spoken before, or not in modern times, you will find people on both sides of the argument. Just in this tread alone you have George who hates them and Lord who likes them. Instead, I am saying that a writer should read threads like this one where readers talk about what they like and dislike and try to learn things that will improve their literary skills without forcing them to lose their ability to tell a compelling story. Reader discussion threads are one avenue a writer has of learning and improving. If you blindly change your manuscript to follow what one person liked, you may find that you have hurt the rest of the story.

Because ultimately, it all boils down to sales. Reviews and word of mouth will decide the fate of your book. If you get reviews that continue to say, “Don’t read this, its garbage and the author can’t write.” you will find that your sales dwindle to nothing and you either starve or seek a different mode of employment. If on the other hand, you get reviews that say, “Man. I loved this book. I didn’t care for ______, but it is such a minor issue that I still recommend anyone read this. I know I will continue reading.” be happy. They liked your book and they will continue to buy your products. (If you need some examples of the second statement, Google my reviews, lol.)

This race is long. If you tell a story that people want to read even though you may have one or two things in it that drive them a little nuts, you are on the right track. A writer should always strive to improve and grow their literary skills, yes. But, it is the story that will make or break your career, not whether your Dwarves speak with a Scottish accent (which, btw, drives me NUTS!)

Maxwell Alexander Drake

[Annette]

I suspect that there are dwarves all over (or under) the place with a variety of accents!

I, as a new author who worries about receiving those not-so-hot reviews (but then I worry about this kind of thing in all aspects of my life and so a public career is not necessarily that good for me!), thank you for your comments and advice. I will certainly try and bear it in mind.

You are lucky to have such support. You are right about the reviews and word of mouth but getting those first reviews can be tough.

You are also right - its 'horses for courses' as they say. What one person loves another will hate and you shouldn't follow ideas or rules because you think it is what you should do - but support what works for your story.

And, for the record, I love CSI - it's my switch off and relax entertainment for the evening - but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy Shakespeare too. Variety is definitely important in life!

[Sue]

On the other hand, when you get several generally good reviews that have the same complaint, try to keep it in mind for your next book or revision. In my case, it was too many characters in the beginning. The sequel Tourist Trap, which I just finished editing, will have a cast of characters at the beginning. (I have one on my website for Homecoming, but I got the website after the book was printed.)

[Maxwell]

Sue,

You are absolutely correct. It is the writer that grows and improves that will last novel after novel.

[Ben]

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party, as usual. I'm an author primarily (and a reader very secondarily), and I find this kind of direct-from-the-reader information to be invaluable.

At the risk of being a bit trollish and shamelessly self-serving, I'd like to submit my first fantasy book, "The Wizard of Roaming Hall," as an example of an author endeavoring not simply to stay away from established archetypes, but to help broaden the perspective on race, role, prophecy and even purpose itself in fantasy literature.

The things touched upon in this discussion--namely avoiding things such as racial generalizations for things other than humans, one-dimensional villains, brainless prophecies and overly-complex naming conventions--are paramount among the tenants which my fictitious world is based upon.

I suggest reading this review of the book for a reader's perspective. If you are a Kindle or Nook user, you can download a free sample (roughly the first two chapters), and see for yourself if I was successful in this endeavor. If you are not a Kindle or Nook user, I have the first chapter available as a sample on my blog.

I would love to hear some feedback, and I do not shy from criticism. In fact, I invite it!

Thank you very much for your time.

Ben Petry, Author: "The Wizard of Roaming Hall"


The Wizard of Roaming Hall

[E.K.]

"if you, as the writer, get hung up on these things, you lose track of what your job is – entertainment."

I agree 100% with Maxwell. The point of being a writer is to entertain. It's very hard to tell a compelling story when you're so worried about whether your hero's foreign name or your dwarf's accent is going to annoy someone. Who has time for that? If you put your effort and brain power into crafting three dimensional characters and fully imaginging the world they live in, then you're much closer to doing your job: engaging readers. Sure there are wizards and elves in other novels (not to mention humans...that gimmick is so overused!), but if your wizard or elf is interesting enough to keep me turning the pages, then I'd say you're right on track!

[Shannon]

Dune wrote: "I have decided that the most annoying and irksome thing in fantasy fiction is that every writer has to write a trilogy; what is wrong with a story that begins and ends in one book?
Granted there ar..."

Blessed is the genre writer that finds a franchise. But, yes, I agree, focus on your single story. Don't make your fantasy "epic" for the sake of being epic.

I have to say that I agree with pretty much all of the above. I think most of the complaints boil down to "That's great that you made up a whole world. But why?"

It's wonderful that you've created an intricately imagined world filled with all sorts of new religious orders, fascinating languages, original social structures and big bad guys that wear black capes and stalk your hero in the dead of night. But I don't really care about any of that if there isn't a good, solid story there with fully realized characters with whom I can identify or at least sympathize. In the end, it all comes down to good story telling.

Having said that, my biggest pet peeve is every story's need to have a blacksmith protagonist. C'mon, there are other professions. Wainwright, anyone?

[Marc]

Danielle wrote: "If you're going to use the old stereotypes, trot out elves, dwarves,orcs, fairies or whatever once more, DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL WITH IT."

I did. I have. I will.

[C.C.]

Maxwell wrote: "First and foremost, I would like to apologize in advance if my words ruffle any feathers. It is not my intent to do so, and I write this with the spirit of staying “politically correct” top of mind..."

Thank you for your fine points, and I do appreciate established writers with strong contacts that reach out to us unknown newbies. But with this particular narrative, I'm not seeing common ground. I'm happy to read your posts, as I'm sure you have much to share. Thanks.

[C.C.]

I sympathize with "Tolkien Redux Syndrome" as well, so I left elves/dwarfs out of my medieval dark fantasy novellas. Another irk of mine is Buffy Martial arts. As a student of martial arts, hand-to-hand combat is important, but a 20th degree master-whatever will not knock out a monster. My lead assassin character Shevata focuses on weapon design, and size matters in the Gastar novellas.

[John]

What disgruntles me are the orphans. Mainly because they are not "racial tropes", they are "plot cliches". Sometimes I want the trope - for reasons other folks here have already stated.

And I might get some slack for this but... giving your bio or including your "credibility as an accomplished writer" in a post here is not necessary (for more reasons than I care to list). Also... not too sure this is the place to do adverts for your book(s)... That being said, this thread has been an interesting and informative read. Thanks to all who participated.

[Keryl]

John wrote: "What disgruntles me are the orphans. Mainly because they are not "racial tropes", they are "plot cliches". Sometimes I want the trope - for reasons other folks here have already stated.

And I mi..."

I think orphans make sense on a few levels. They may be lazy writing, but especially in most YA fantasy, if the kid has parents there's just no way they'd let him get into the sort of dangerous death defying adventures that make the story interesting.

There's a reason why most of the Harry Potter stuff has to happen off at boarding school, it's because neither Ron nor Hermione's parents would have let them keep going back if they had a clue as to what all was going on. (At least in the first three years.)

Plus, with orphans it's significantly easier to write the final confrontation, where the boy, now on the verge of manhood (or girl/womanhood) must go off on his own without the shelter and succor of the older and more experienced mentor. If mommy and daddy are lurking around in the background it's too easy for the hero to act like a regular person and go to them for help.

[Keryl]

Sue wrote: "On the other hand, when you get several generally good reviews that have the same complaint, try to keep it in mind for your next book or revision. In my case, it was too many characters in the beg..."

This is something I love about being an indie. I had the same complaint, too many characters too quick. Within ten minutes I had a new edition out of both the ebook and the pbook with a cast of characters.

[John]

"-but especially in most YA fantasy-"
Keryl, you are right. I confess that I do not read YA novels and have no interest in them. But what you stated about orphans in YA novels makes sense. So... I still don't like orphans! (excluding YA books) eh eh eh