The irksome and annoying...fantasy tools that we could well do without

[Marc]

Larry wrote: "Yikes, I wasn't aiming for you

I meant in a good way.
1) I have no maps
2) no antiheroes, just villains
3) not interested in gimmicks,
4) my main interest is the characters and how they are affected by everything, gimmicks included.

[Larry]

Marc wrote: "Larry wrote: "Yikes, I wasn't aiming for you

I meant in a good way.
1) I have no maps
2) no antiheroes, just villains
3) not interested in gimmicks,
4) my main interest is the characters and..."

Well I feel better and now I will have to read your books.

I gave up on male writers in scifi for quite awhile because they just weren't writing any good characters, the stories just became flat to me and I found the women writers coming to the fore with better and more interesting people and stories. Now it seems to be much more balanced.


Marc wrote: "Larry wrote: "Yikes, I wasn't aiming for you

I meant in a good way.
1) I have no maps
2) no antiheroes, just villains
3) not interested in gimmicks,
4) my main interest is the characters and..."<

[Marc]

Larry wrote: "I gave up on male writers in scifi for quite awhile because they just weren't writing any good characters, the stories just became flat to me and I found the women writers coming to the fore with better and more interesting people and stories. Now it seems to be much more balanced. "

Do you mean scifi as in scifi/fantasy or straight scifi? I read mostly fantasy, and there are quite a few good male fantasy writers out there. Steven Brust, Dave Duncan, Lawrence Watt-Evans, are some of my favorites. The women authors do turn out quite a lot of good stuff, though.

[C.C.]

Larry wrote: "Well it seems everyone has covered all the major bases but I want to add a couple.

Any story where I have to check the map at the front of the book, if I am that lost then I am that bored. While..."

But isn't that what fantasy is about..."overdone heroes, anti-heroes/various brands of enemies? Maybe it's the craze just because people like it. Sure, not for everyone; I like them amongst other genres.

[C.C.]

Marc wrote: "Larry wrote: "Well it seems everyone has covered all the major bases but I want to add a couple.

Any story where I have to check the map at the front of the book, if I am that lost then I am tha..."

Hi, Larry, I promise not to troll your comments. I like your comment about female authors; I agree there's a lot of great talent coming from both genders.

And by the way, I don't use any maps in any of my fantasy stories. Check it out! (hope to have partial ebook upload soon)

[Larry]

C. wrote: "Marc wrote: "Larry wrote: "Well it seems everyone has covered all the major bases but I want to add a couple.

Any story where I have to check the map at the front of the book, if I am that lost th..."

Hey Marc and C,
Actually I am quite excited that you responded and I put my thoughts out there so no prob.
scifi I mean science fiction which has been my main indulgance but I have read a fair amount of fantasy as well, (though I do admit that as a hard sci-fi fan it irked me to see the bookshelves being dominated by fantasy) but don't hate me!

And C,
Bottom line, I love a good read that takes me out of myself for awhile, keeps me entertained and is fun but this thread was about annoyances so that is what I had. Heck I read the whole LOTR and with all he put in there I shouldn't complain. So ta ta for now, keep on writing and I will keep on reading.

larry

[Wendy]

Dune wrote: "I have decided that the most annoying and irksome thing in fantasy fiction is that every writer has to write a trilogy; what is wrong with a story that begins and ends in one book?
Granted there ar..."

I hate this too - it's come to the point where I pretty much put a book down when browsing if I see the dreaded 'Book 1' on the cover, unless I already know and trust the writer, or I've come across very good reviews that talk about character rather than plot, or it promises to be a stand-alone story in a series (as you say; and even then, it has to be character-driven).

It's getting worse too, these days it seems like it's not three books, it's five or seven.

[Wendy]

Larry wrote: "Any story where I have to check the map at the front of the book, if I am that lost then I am that bored. While..."

My books have maps, but only because my partner is a geologist and he does love to draw a map. I don't find them necessary in my own reading, and yeah, if I find myself constantly flipping to the front to check the map, it means the story's beginning to lose me because I've become more interested in the geography than the plot.

[Larry]

Wendy wrote: "Dune wrote: "I have decided that the most annoying and irksome thing in fantasy fiction is that every writer has to write a trilogy; what is wrong with a story that begins and ends in one book?
Gra..."

I kind of agree except one point which is that since I read a lot I enjoy series simply for the giving me enough to read to last awhile. But if you give me a long enough book worth reading I agree it doesn't have to be a series. (It does make financial sense to write series)

[Marc]

Wendy wrote: "...or I've come across very good reviews that talk about character rather than plot, or it promises to be a stand-alone story in a series (as you say; and even then, it has to be character-driven)."

I don't have that many reviews floating around the web, although the ones I do have are pretty good (feel free to post some more), but my books and stories are always character-focused, and even the ones that are part of a series are standalone as well. I don't write a single story that spans three or more volumes.

[[deleted user]]

"Wendy wrote: I hate this too - it's come to the point where I pretty much put a book down when browsing if I see the dreaded 'Book 1' on the cover

Then I guess you won't be reading mine which has Book 1 on the cover.

However, what many who are complaining here fail to understand is that with YA the kids WANT series. They want to associate and emerse themselves in worlds. Not to mention that if you write fantasy (and sci-fi) and take the labor of time and effort to create an entire world from scratch, odds are you're not going to write only one book.

Each story I write is complete, stand-alone and character driven, so to say that's not the case when you see "Book 1" on the cover isn't necessarily true. Book 2 is coming out in October, with more to follow, but were written in advance AND after lengthy discussions with teens about what they want in a book, and problems they struggle with.

[Dune]

Just to clarify, I was talking about a trilogy (like LotR or Eragon), where you have to read three or four books to get the entire story, not a series. Series are different; each book is it's own story but they can all lead on from one another. I am writing a series of books called The Dark Rising, but each book within the series has it's own unique story, and where one story ends, the other may begin. You don't have to read the first one first to completely understand the story, although it might help!

[[deleted user]]

Okay, Dune. Don't you have a YouTube video for your book? I think I remember watching it a few months back.

[C.C.]

Dune wrote: "Just to clarify, I was talking about a trilogy (like LotR or Eragon), where you have to read three or four books to get the entire story, not a series. Series are different; each book is it's own s..."

I get it, and my series is four short books. It'd been nice to have time to write one long book, but I decided to do four short ones because I have to keep my day job to keep the lights on.

Hey, I don't use Any maps. Check it out! (1st book published, 2ns upcoming)

[Larry]

Dune wrote: "Just to clarify, I was talking about a trilogy (like LotR or Eragon), where you have to read three or four books to get the entire story, not a series. Series are different; each book is it's own s..."

Actually that makes a lot of sense, including what others have said about the investment of time and development it is a financial incentive to go for series and take advantage of building the audience.

My issue if any is the lack of very long juicy reads that keep me going for a period of time. I enjoy the longer format books.

Finally these are things we find annoying but I suspect like myself if we enjoy your writing we put up with all that if the story is worthwhile.

[C.C.]

Larry wrote: "Dune wrote: "Just to clarify, I was talking about a trilogy (like LotR or Eragon), where you have to read three or four books to get the entire story, not a series. Series are different; each book ..."

Another point is, for my dark fantasy genre, people like a short read because they're so busy doing a million other things a day. Short books give them some entertainment for the little spare time some readers have.

[C.C.]

Shawn wrote: ""Wendy wrote: I hate this too - it's come to the point where I pretty much put a book down when browsing if I see the dreaded 'Book 1' on the cover

Then I guess you won't be reading mine which has..."
Uh-Oh. I'm in trouble too. But it's only 45K words...

[Dune]

Shawn wrote: "Okay, Dune. Don't you have a YouTube video for your book? I think I remember watching it a few months back."

Yes I do, and it is on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UhucQ...

[[deleted user]]

That's right. It's the one I like the music from Holtz the Planets. :)

[Sue]

I think there are several different multiple-book formats. The one I object to is the one where the author just won't stop, and the successive books feel more and more like a rehash of the first one. In a true trilogy, like LOTR, the story is simply so large it takes more than one book to tell it. Individual books may well end in cliff-hangers, but the last book (usually the third) wraps up the series. Then there are novels with sequels, where each one is complete in itself, though the sequel may act as a spoiler for the first book (i.e., the sequel tells you who survived the first book, and a little of how the first book came out.) In either of these forms, I think it's a matter of taste and how long a read you want--though a trilogy of the LOTR sort may leave you very impatient for the next book to come out, and I think the whole trilogy should be written before the first book is published.
Homecoming (admittedly science fiction rather than fantasy) has a sequel due out this winter, and if those two do well I have a trilogy (of the LOTR type) set almost 300 years after Homecoming, but in the same universe with some of the same characters. On that one I wrote the middle book first, then the first and finally the third when I realized I could not get everything into one book.

[Lisa M]

Personally, I like a series of books. Once I've read a story with characters I enjoy, I like to know what happens to them next. However, the author needs to keep the stories fresh and interesting. Some series just go on too long, and the author is just re-hashing old ideas over and over. At that point, he/she needs to move on.

I also like each book to be stand alone, have it's own plot and be wrapped up by the last page. I hate getting to the end of the book and having to wait a year or more for the next book to find out what happens next. If the whole series is out and finished, I don't mind as much. Still, I prefer a series of stand-alones that relate to one another but can be read by themselves too.

[Dune]

Lisa MH wrote: "Personally, I like a series of books. Once I've read a story with characters I enjoy, I like to know what happens to them next. However, the author needs to keep the stories fresh and interesting. ..."

That's what The Dark Rising Series is; a series of stand alone stories but they relate to each other and feed off each other, each book creating yet more ideas and more directions in which to go.

[[deleted user]]

Lisa MH wrote: "Personally, I like a series of books. Once I've read a story with characters I enjoy, I like to know what happens to them next. However, the author needs to keep the stories fresh and interesting. ..."

Yep, that's what I heard from the kids when I started writing ALLON. Each book is stand alone, complete for that story, but many of the same characters - mortals and immortals - for a sense of familiarity and association, and with time between each stories.

[Joe]

My Morgaine series, which is up to eight books now, came about because the publisher decided that the first book in the series was too long and wanted me to divide it into two. So now I had the first two books in the series which really should've been read as one book. Once I had the characters and settings in mind, I kept getting good ideas. As a result, the other books in the series can be read standalone. However, sometimes there are some unimportant references to what went before. In Book 3 Morgaine and Raven, I created a new character, a tough female PI who was also into the occult, Raven Lenore. I liked this character so much that I've written a series in which she stars.

[Wendy]

Shawn wrote: "Then I guess you won't be reading mine which has Book 1 on the cover...Each story I write is complete, stand-alone and character driven, so to say that's not the case when you see "Book 1" on the cover isn't necessarily true."

I wasn't trying to imply that books with 'Book 1' on the cover can't have those attributes (that's why I wrote 'I put it down UNLESS...'), and I'm sorry you took it that way.

All I'm saying is that I'm sick of stories that have been deliberately padded out and bloated to make them last three books instead of one and that unfortunately it has made me wary of any fantasy book where the publisher already knows it's going to last more than one book ie they know to put 'book 1' on the cover (ETA: though I know it's pretty much standard for big publishers to sign SF/F authors for multi-book deals these days, therefore they always know to put 'Book 1' on there).

As others have said, series fiction is different, and publishers might want to make sure the blurb makes the difference clear between 'first book in a trilogy' and 'first book in a series'.

[Wendy]

Sue wrote: "I think there are several different multiple-book formats. The one I object to is the one where the author just won't stop, and the successive books feel more and more like a rehash of the first on..."

Sue, exactly and very well put - thanks for expressing my thoughts better than I obviously am!

[C.C.]

Wendy wrote: "Sue wrote: "I think there are several different multiple-book formats. The one I object to is the one where the author just won't stop, and the successive books feel more and more like a rehash of ..."

My series is 4 books, and that's it (for that series) Book 2 out this fall, I hope..thanks for the comments, it's good for us series-writers to read these!

[[deleted user]]

Actually, Wendy, I was saying "Then I guess you won't be reading me. . ." with tongue in cheek, not taking offense.:) Then went on to explain my series.

I debated about putting book 1 on the cover since each story does stand alone and I don't like ones that carry on either. I leave clues that if picked up can hint at the next book, but I finish the story. The number was used so YA reader know there are more stories coming.

Other than 'trilogy' and saying series, I don't think there is a way to more clearly define a book to alert readers.Sometimes the ending is an editorial/marketing choice - not the author.

[Wendy]

Shawn wrote: "Actually, Wendy, I was saying "Then I guess you won't be reading me. . ." with tongue in cheek, not taking offense.:)."

Ah, sorry, early morning for me, reading comprehension skills not yet boosted by being awake...

[C.C.]

Shawn wrote: "Actually, Wendy, I was saying "Then I guess you won't be reading me. . ." with tongue in cheek, not taking offense.:) Then went on to explain my series.

I debated about putting book 1 on the cover..."

..the remark about the ending of the story is a good one, one of the many reasons I self-publish...best to you for your writing endeavors!!!

[Dune]

Shawn wrote: "Actually, Wendy, I was saying "Then I guess you won't be reading me. . ." with tongue in cheek, not taking offense.:) Then went on to explain my series.

I debated about putting book 1 on the cover..."

I debated whether to put Book 1 on the cover, I went back and forth for a while, reading this thread and trying to decide. In the end, I decided to go with it. I wanted potential readers to know it wasn't the only one. I put 'The Dark Rising Series -1-' on the spine only. I didn't want to get too 'in-yer-face-' with it.

I also agree with C. regarding self-publishing; I have complete creative control over my books. Self-publishing is becoming the wave of the future anyhow with ebooks, especially with some of the pricing out there.

[[deleted user]]

I agree, Dune and C, I am going self-publishing with the rest of my series starting this fall, both POD and ebook.

The tug of war this past year with my publisher over the first book and doing ALL the promotion myself for a little royalty is ridiculous.

[[deleted user]]

I will jump in on the characterization topic. The characters need to have more than one dimension. The Hero a flaw, but also curiosity and bravery and cowardice. The villain needs to be the hero of his own story- and he needs a trait that is 'good'. Often the best villains are trying to do the same thing as the hero, they just go about it in a different way and are therefor evil. Think Magneto v Xavier they both want to protect the mutants.

All the secondary characters need to have at least a couple of character traits beyond those needed for their role in the story.

Thanks

[[deleted user]]

In other words, Perry, all characters need to be multi-dimensional and not stereo-typical. Those make the best, when the 'villain" or an accidental bad-guy struggles with their choice and the consequences.

I define 'good' vs 'evil', but something the motive of the character is clear cut. Heroes make bad choices while villains can seem noble at certain times.

[Larry]

Well again I personally want some authors to write longer books that I don't just breeze through but that being said I too enjoy series like Jim Butcher and his Dresden series and others as long as the series serves a long term character development and each is a full book in of itself but at the same time like the Chtorr series by I believe David Gerrold (sp?) he still hasn't finished the darn thing and there is lots of information I am waiting on or Delaney who wrote his book Stars in my pocket like grains of sand,which should have continued but didn't makes me just so crazy. Some authors can do series and each book is long and fulfilling and that is the best. The Amber series were good for that and even Riverworld.

[Hilary]

Interesting comments about the role of the villain but I have to ask; does it take the mystery away if we know too much about our fantasy bad guy? Does knowing that he was abused by the scullery maids / mother/ evil stepfather really add to our enjoyment of a novel about light and dark as most fantasy novels tend to be about?

What irks me in this genre is cover art of hulky heroes and sexy heroines making eyes at each other while smiting dragons (And the females are usually wearing clothing that is about to fall off!) I have also put books back on the shelf if the write up has anything like "Little did Biff Studly know that his time as an elite trooper with the King's Guards would bring him to the bedside of the lovely Princess Nubile"

I like unexpected heroes, mysterious villains, strong female heroines (with normal names and clothes, thank you very much) and not too much navel gazing about the grayness of the world in which they inhabit. Luckily for me, there are plenty of great books that fit that description! It is also the kind of world I wrote in "Fifth Sun: The Awakening".(www.fifthsun.ca)

[C.C.]

My heroine is sixteen years old, Always Wears Covering Clothing (an irk of mine as well), but I named her Shevata, because I like three-syllable female names and wanted hers to be as unique as possible. I agree, mystery adds to both heroines (heroes) as well as villains.

[Dune]

Hilary wrote: "Interesting comments about the role of the villain but I have to ask; does it take the mystery away if we know too much about our fantasy bad guy? Does knowing that he was abused by the scullery ma..."

My main hero is a male, but without the "heroine" who is his conscience, he wouldn't get very far. I can't remember who said it, but a quote sticks in my mind on this one: "Behind every good man, there is a great woman." I guess that's what my story is about; a heroine who isn't what most people would ever see as a heroine.

[Larry]

I thought about Hillary's comment, the most interesting villian is one who thinks they are doing good and the back story is worthwhile if it connects to the current action though doesn't have to be schematic in a leads to b but forms the character and creates the villians sense of right and wrong. So it isn't the mystery to me that is important as much if the character is done well the quality of their actions.

Clothes should be climate appropriate that is about all I can say on that.

If you have a man and women running around in their 20's or early 30's all vigorous and active I doubt if they aren't pumping hormones into their shapely bods, it is the adolecsent quality of the attaction and story line I think is annoying. Though again if you are in a hot muggy jungle slashing at plants and fending off bugs and dragons I doubt if you are thinking about bedding your companion. Still guys are dogs even in the worst of circumstances. I like Dresden because he struggles with real type relationships even in his odd world.

[[deleted user]]

Hilary wrote:What irks me in this genre is cover art of hulky heroes and sexy heroines making eyes at each other while smiting dragons (And the females are usually wearing clothing that is about to fall off!) I have also put books back on the shelf if the write up has anything like "Little did Biff Studly know that his time as an elite trooper with the King's Guards would bring him to the bedside of the lovely Princess Nubile" "

Writing YA Fantasy, I tend to keep things "Clean" including the covers. The situations get complex and I deal with teen issues. I do believe in multi-dimension characters, even with some villains. Still, I include the typical characters and some comic-relief banter for kids to associate with.

[Michael]

To Larry:
I've read several of your comments, Larry, and I have written a very special book that would seem to fit well with your taste. It's not exactly popular, it's big and expensive and one reviewer said he had 'never seen anything quite like it'. Furthermore, I haven't been able to do much in the way of promotion so it is practically unknown. It did win an award, however: 1st runner-up science fiction novel of the year from PREMIER BOOK AWARDS. It is deep, thought provoking, and with a scope of Wagnerian proportions. It's called 'GALACTIC EXODUS: Counterdance of the Cybergods' [Michael Somers]. It's available at Amazon, but contact me through my website (search for Galactic Exodus or go to www.somersong.com), where you can leave me an email. There is some miscellaneous stuff there that may amuse you, but two pages are pretty much devoted to the book, with excerpts, ToC, the prologue, other various and sundry things. I have announced its publication and recommended it a few times on Goodreads, but got only one reply. Only Jim Chery of SONAR/4 ezine showed interest. His review can be seen at Amazon and on my site. Looking forward to your contact--and that of anyone else whose interest is piqued. Galactic Exodus: Counterdance of the Cybergods

[Larry]

Michael,
Went to the website, your bio is sure interesting. Look forward to reading some of your work.

larry

[Annette]

Shawn wrote: "Being an author of YA fantasy, I've found this discussion interesting. Yet there seems to be a line of thought that is blurring the difference between YA and adult fantasy.

Several have mentioned ..."

I feel a little sad that you would pigeon-hole LOTR in this way (and possibly YA readers). I first read LOTR as a young teenager and had no problem with its size, style, language, subject matter, (even if that is a while ago now!) Everyone - even teens - are different. It's a shame that we assume all teens will only like a certain style of book and if we always feel we have to 'dumb down' for them. They can have a strong vocabulary, sophisticated tastes or interest in big issues too. I was shocked to hear a teacher say that Shakespeare wouldn't appeal to teens - no wonder if this is the attitude and enthusiasm they receive for it from those who are supposed to teach it! (Fortunately my daughter has just been to the Globe to watch "The Merry Wives of Windsor" and thoroughly enjoyed it.)

Oh - and I have put a map in my second book because I have always loved maps (and my readers requested one)!

I wrote my story in 3 parts because it felt right - but then worried about doing so as every book these days seems to have to be enormous! Since, of course, I have come up with other stories for some of my characters. I didn't put 'Book 1' on my first book, "Blood and Allegiance", because I didn't dare to believe my next would be published. Fortunately it is and is due out at the end of October, "Escape and Betrayal".

[Annette]

The map thing needs more explaining! As a child I loved maps, real and imaginary, and would spent a lot of time refering to those in books I read (including "Winnie the Pooh"). I also enjoyed drawing my own - for both stories I had read or totally imaginary countries, especially desert islands. So it's not surprising that I drew a map for my own book. Maybe it's a bit nerdy.

I have to add that I enjoyed drawing architect plans for imaginary houses too - I'm a big fan of "Cluedo" and "Grand Designs"!

[[deleted user]]

Annette, I wasn't "Pigeon-holing" I was stating a fact about LOTR. Tolkien didn't write a YA book - he didn't even write for the average adult reader of his day. He wrote a scholarly work for his peers. He was a linguistics professor and created all the languages used in LOTR.

Naturally, I realize there are exceptions. My daughter also read LOTR and Shakespeare at age 10 to 11 and had no problem.

I'm not generalizing to put down those advance kids - since my daughter is among them. Nor do I 'dumb down' my stories for the kids. However, I visit schools all the time and run across this too often - parents, librarians and teachers lamenting the lack of reading skills and book selection to challenge kids.

Some kids give me samples of their poems and stores to read and the writing skills and language are horrible. In some cases, high school kids barely writing and reading at a 5-6th grade level.

[Larry]

Annette wrote: "The map thing needs more explaining! As a child I loved maps, real and imaginary, and would spent a lot of time refering to those in books I read (including "Winnie the Pooh"). I also enjoyed dra..."

I have a friend who made maps of his neighborhood while growing up and now when we drive anywhere I want to have him drive, he seems to never get lost. But my preference, and it is a preference not a major stopping point is not to have to reference a map to follow a story. And I would not want to discourage any writer who loves maps from making theirs to put in their book. But I still have my druthers.

And on LOTR, I read it when I was a teen, and to be honest it took the movies for me to finally be clear on all the characters and story lines. Perhaps I am just a yutz, who knows but it is a very dense serious work of literature filled with writing based on old English not current in his day.

Shawn on kids and writing, companies are always on the look out for young people who can actually write, it is a rare commodity amongst our college graduates. And with our older supervisors and managers, it is a wasteland.

[[deleted user]]

Larry wrote: "Shawn on kids and writing, companies are always on the look out for young people who can actually write, it is a rare commodity amongst our college graduates. And with our older supervisors and managers, it is a wasteland. ..."

Amen, Larry! I live in Tennessee where the state lowered the requirement for college to a C+ just to fill the rolls. Up to 90% of these kids who squeaked into college drop out in the first semester - not year - semester - because they can't comprehend a college textbook.

Our school system is struggling to get the high school graduation rate up or lose Federal funding for "No Child Left Behind". Some local high schools the rate is only 50% graduation.

[Annette]

Shawn wrote: "Annette, I wasn't "Pigeon-holing" I was stating a fact about LOTR. Tolkien didn't write a YA book - he didn't even write for the average adult reader of his day. He wrote a scholarly work for his p..."

I didn't mean to offend, Shawn, it's that, as a graduate in medieval English literature, I do get frustrated at how older works are dismissed so easily because the language is a little trickier to engage with - even literature pre 1980! Just as films are often dismissed these days because they are in black & white! I love our rich language and the way subtle differences can be suggested through the choice of a word.

[[deleted user]]

I wasn't offended, just further explaining what I thought you misunderstood. In fact, I had to look back to see what post you were referring too. :)

I also love the older works and was writing historical fiction set in 17th century France, England and Scotland before my daughter asked me to write a fantasy.

It has been sad and somewhat disheartening for me to see what has happened with the kids today, and, as such, their appreciation of older literature. We raised our daughter on the classics, both books and movies. She likes Errol Flynn, Tyrone Power, Cary Grant, John Wayne - old actors none of her peers know.

[[deleted user]]

Personally, I must agree with the first post on this discussion - that they don't need all the weird names.