Fans of Norah Lofts discussion
Layer Wood +other NL locations
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Layer Wood Map
message 201:
by
Sherry
(new)
Nov 17, 2010 12:10AM
I didn't even remember that the place where the One Bull was located had a name. Barbara, you have an amazing memory for detail.
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Thank you Sherry ,I think I must have, as people often seem to say so - but in this instance I don't really deserve it as I am (very slowly) researching Wayside Tavern for the Gilderson Family thing. Eventually, it will happen .......
PS. I can't, of course, remember where I left my glasses, and/or keys.
That's funny, Barbara. Welcome to my world... I appreciate the information you post about the Lofts books. Isn't it interesting how we focus so much on the characters and families, who have become real to us through her writing, rather than on her style or other aspects of her writing?
I was just looking back at the the early stages of this Layer Wood thread, Sherry,and some amazing research went into it all, and we obviously had fun doing it, even if we never do create The Definitive Layer Wood Map.Yes, we do get character-driven I agree, though when I write reviews I seem to talk about style more . Maybe here we take NL 's style etc for granted ? Interesting ......
Sherry wrote, "I often find myself wondering '"what happened to...?'" and Barbara answered, "and most of all, Araminta Glover." Me, too! But I think she came out all right! I envision her, not long after her marriage, coming to her mother-in-law in private and saying something like this: "I know you've had misgivings about your son's marrying me, and I'm grateful for the way you've made the best of it. But I learn pretty quickly, and if you'll teach me, I think I can learn to be enough of a lady that I won't embarrass you." And I think her mother-in-law would quickly grow from seeing Araminta as a test of the principles she had professed for most of her life to being very fond and proud of her.When I logged on to post this comment, I also saw the questions about A Wayside Tavern. For what this is worth, it begins during the withdrawal of Roman troops from Britain, which took place about A. D. 409. Then the first Viking raids in England happened in 770-something--772, I think. Does this help at all?
In connection with these two comments, here are some more "other authors" recommendations:
1. The Ladies of Lyndon, by Margaret Kennedy
2. any of Rosemary Sutcliffe's Roman Britain novels, especially Sword at Sunset, which I still consider the best Arthurian novel I ever read
Well, Norah may have used artistic license, but to me it sounds like Gilda and her centurion would have been over 300 years old by the time the vikings invaded Mallow. Of course, 770 may have been at the peak of the invasions, which certainly might have begun 300 years earlier. Anyone?
Records from that time are fragmentary; but from the time the Roman troops were withdrawn (and even before) Britain was definitely subject to repeated piratical raids and attacks by Irish, Picts, Saxons and other German-speaking tribes (the east coast of Britain was so much visited by the Saxons that it was known as "the Saxon shore" even in late Roman times), and probably by anybody else who saw an opportunity. The main Viking raiding activity did begin a few centuries later, but the Scandinavian tribes had been tough, sea-faring people before that, with limited land and resources at home; it wouldn't be beyond the scope of imagination to think that some Viking bands might have tried their luck in Britain in the 400s.
If anything like Viking raids took place during the time of Gilda and Paulus, I think they must have been Anglo-Saxon raids. As Werner said, those may have started even before the Roman withdrawal.
As promised above, I looked this point up in a book I have. My results are posted in the new thread (which I just started) for A Wayside Tavern.
I'm still plugging away on the map research. I had all of your research notes typed out in order of book titles, as well as my own notes, and thankfully had most of them saved onto a disk before my pc crash. However, I don't have the right program yet on this other pc to read or print them out or type new ones yet. But I'm working on finding the right program. I am hopeful of completing this project in March.A while ago, I had asked any of you reading NL books that take place in the Baildon-Layer Wood area to watch out for names of rivers. So far we still know of only two - the Wren and the Lark. Now I am asking you to keep an eye out for any names of pools in Layer Wood. Out of 16 books, I have only run across two named pools - Layer Pool and Top Pool. If any of you find other named pools, please note them on this thread as well as their locations (near what village, house, etc.) and which book and page where located. Thanks, as always!
Sylvia wrote: "I'm still plugging away on the map research. I had all of your research notes typed out in order of book titles, as well as my own notes, and thankfully had most of them saved onto a disk before m..."
Hi Sylvia, I wondered how this was coming along. Thanks for the update.
Alice
Hi Sylvia, I wondered how this was coming along. Thanks for the update.
Alice
I am afraid everybody has given up on this map project, so I wanted to assure you that I am still plugging away. I figured it would take at least a year, and we are now slightly over that mark. I am in the process of putting together my 4th version of the LW map. As far as I am concerned, the research here is concluded. I believe the final count for Layer Wood/Baildon area NL books is 22 titles. The list of those titles will be in the final notes along with my own concept of the map.
Has anyone else attempted to draw a map using the notes in this thread or from their own research? Any additional research you have done could also be added to the file, which will be available via Werner at Bluefield College in Virginia where he is the librarian.
I don't know how I missed the following bit of vital information, and I am surprised that those of you who are familiar with England missed it, too, but the River Lark is a real river that flows through Bury St. Edmunds! Presently, it seems to begin its course there, and this river has been altered so much in its history. Its course flows northwest, which conpletely changed my whole map structure!
I have assumed that both rivers NL mentions, Lark and Wren, were small fictional rivers. I also came to the [false] conclusion that both flowed east and one of them emptied into the sea at Bywater. The true course of the R. Lark places Baildon, through which this river flows according to "The Old Priory", much further inland (westward) than I originally projected. This river placement changed everything, once again, on my map.
There is mention of another real River Lark on the east coast of Suffolk, a tiny river that flows into another small river, but I couldn't find it on any internet map. I did find one small allusion to a real River Wren, which might be a little fishing tributary - not sure - the only mention anywhere was on a travel site which mentioned a garden overlooking this river. However, none of the geographical listings of English rivers includes it. So at least in my own mind, I am considering NL's Wren River as a fictional one.
If I don't run into any more glitches, I may be sending out the research notes and a suggested map drawing to Werner's library and to Clive Lofts and his current publisher. (Remember Maggy, who said she might find an artist to draw the map if she got our research notes?)
If you have any suggestions or concerns about this map project, please voice them here ASAP. Thanks everyone.
Sylvia, heartiest congratulations and thanks for the fruit of all your time and hard work on this. NL fans everywhere owe you a debt of gratitude; you've done something you can be justly proud of!I sent you my mailing address here at Bluefield College in an e-mail just now. But for those who may need it in the future, it's Werner Lind, Easley Library, Bluefield College, 3000 College Dr., Bluefield, VA 24605.
Thanks so much, Werner, for your kind and encouraging words! And thanks especially for agreeing to be keeper/distributor of the map project information. (I just hope NL won't haunt me for getting all of her locations incorrectly placed. On second thought, if a person is to be haunted, her spectre would be a very welcome one.)
Glad I can help in a small way, Sylvia! (And if NL pays you a ghostly visit, I'm sure it will just be to thank you. :-) )
I have read through every post in this thread several times to make sure I extracted everybody's research (whatever I felt I could use), and I can tell you, Werner, that you did an enormous amount of research on this project! If NL does stop by here one dark and stormy night, I will tell her to be sure and visit the Easley Library! :-}
Hello, I'm rather new to Goodreads. I'm thrilled to find other devotees of Norah Lofts. The map project sounds very interesting, and I'll love to see a copy of it when it's finished.
Cynthia, how wonderful to have a new NL fan on the forum! Once the research and a map copy is available at the address in message 214 above, forum member Werner will send it to you. I will post here when it is sent to him.There are several threads in the Lofts forum where you can tell us about yourself and read about us, too. "Off Topic" might be a good place, or "What Is Your First NL Book?" Please tell us which books and characters are your favorites, or whatever you want to share. We are currently doing a reading/ discussion of NL's first book, "I Met a Gypsy" that you might want to join. Grab a cuppa tea, some boiled cabbage and onions, and get comfortable with us!
Yes, Cynthia, I'll be glad to mail you this material; when that time comes, just send me a personal message with your snail mail address. And thanks for your kind words, Sylvia!
Sylvia wrote: "I am afraid everybody has given up on this map project, so I wanted to assure you that I am still plugging away. I figured it would take at least a year, and we are now slightly over that mark. ..."
Sylvia...I am new also, and have been reading old posts about the map. I'm so glad you're still doing it...so many times I have sat and tried to sketch out the locations and failed...it is complicated! I was most interested in your 'recollection' problem...I have chronic fatigue and the same trouble recalling info. It's funny how you can read and re-read the same books over and over. Norah Lofts is my all-time favorite and each old book is brand new everytime I pick it up...
Hi Linda! I'm so glad you found the Layer Wood Map thread. I love reading through all of the threads - you learn so much and are reminded of things you've totally forgotten. Here is some map information that may not make it into the research and final map. Lowestoft, a coastal town that figures heavily in the book "Charlotte", will be on the map, since it is a real place, but my river research claims that a River Wren flows south of Lowestoft, and it isn't visible anywhere that I can find. If any of you find it, please let me know! Remember, a River Wren flows right by Knight's Acre.
Concerning the history of the River Lark that flows through Bury, and fictionally through Baildon, it is 31 miles long today. It was bought several times, re-routed, and altered, and at least one river builder was bankrupted by it. Commercial carrying ceased after 1928. I wonder how much NL knew this river? Maybe she and her family had picnics and boating along it. Sallie, maybe if you do make it to Bury this summer, you can find this river for us!
If someone who lives, or has lived, in the Bury and Suffolk area could have plotted the Layer Wood Map, I think it would be, even instinctually, a better map. For instance, I have lived on, or near to, the Ohio River for most of my life, and I would have some acquired knowledge of the lay of the land, even though the Ohio is approx. 900 miles long. England has hundreds of rivers, but they are relatively small.
Has anyone thought that NL might have made a map for her own use....seems to me it would have been hard for even her to keep things straight. Is anyone still in contact with her son? Or is there a library where her research and private papers might be kept. I would love to see her research on the history...I have 40 of her books..some duplicates I think...have never read Charlotte...time to find a copy....oh boy!
Hello Linda , how lovely, someone new and renewed interest in Sylvia's wonderful map.We have made some attempts to contact Geofffrey? NL's son, I think there is probably a record of it in the Biography thread. I think the answer was no to the map question, in fact we think we may be more keen on the terrain details than she was herself . ! We didn't have much luck with Bury St Edmunds council etc either who you would think ought to be more proactive and proud of her.
You have read Peggy's extracts from NL letters in the Biog thread ?
Linda, this past year, I have written to NL's publishers, used book stores, the Bury St. Edmunds Library and Museum, and the U.S. Library of Congress in search of her fictional map. Werner, a college librarian on here, searched extensively, and I wrote to NL's son, who searched through his own collection and never found it. He did send us a lovely copy of the map of Clevely, which is on the cover of "Afternoon of an Autocrat".Some of us joined a Cambridge Research Group to see if they had any information we didn't have, but we came to the conclusion that we have more than they do!
Since you have 40 of NL's books, you might want to check out the thread that lists all of her titles.
I have just discovered another NL non-fiction title that I've never seen listed. I want to make sure it is available before I list it.
Lurk on, Linda! We've all had that feeling of thinking we had a "new" one to read and then found out it was a duplicate title! But the best thing about NL is that with just a little gap in time, you can reread your favorites. Also just reading all of these threads is like reading a book, and suddenly a post will intrigue you, and you have to go searching or rereading to post your comments!This has been a great month for the NL Forum with at least three new members - Cynthia, Linda, and Gillian. Please find your favorite topics and start commenting!
Regarding this thread, for our new members, the subject here is regarding a map of the fictional area of Layer Wood, Baildon, and NL's castles, manors, villages, etc. There are at least four published maps (Spain, Crusades, France (I think), and Clevely. This map project is nearly finished, but there is a LOT of information here on all the work we have done to make a reasonably accurate map of this beloved territory. Our research will be available soon, but you may be inspired to take the location passages from the 22 recognized Layer Wood titles and plot your own map. From the start, my goal has been to make a cloth wall hanging of it.
This post may be taken as an ANNOUNCEMENT. I have now sent a summary of about 18 pages of research notes of all the members who participated in this map research project to Werner Lind, whose address is listed on post 214 above. He also will have a copy of my map concept of Layer Wood, as well as a map taken from the internet of the three involved counties - Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex.I want to say, first of all, that I know there are still many problems with my own map. There are many descriptions given by NL which I have not yet made compatible in my own mind with other descriptions. My hope is that those of you who are seriously interested in an accurate map will study our research notes (they are all taken directly from NL's own pen) and come up with a map from your own impressions. If any of you think you have made an accurate map, maybe you could send your copy to Werner and he can send it out as requested. I hope this won't be a problem for you, Werner. Don't you think we should send your library a small donation for your time and the postage when we request this info?
I want to relate to all of you something that happened to me just an hour ago. For the first time in 14 months, I was reading a Lofts book for pure escape, not watching out for locations, rivers, etc. LOL! Suddenly a picture came into my mind of how I wanted my own map to appear! The one I have sent to Werner is an up and down version. This inspired one is like that long ago sketch I said I had seen at the beginning of this project, which covered the end pages of a library book. After all the searching and finding no original map, I think a long ago fan may have sketched that map in the library book.
If I do make my wall hanging, I intend to change my own map, bringing the top "finger" down toward the coast and the other fingers following along so that Knight's Acre ("Layer Wood's Last Outpost")will be in the first crook, Gad's Hall will be somewhat behind it ("near the Norfolk border") and Baildon will still be just north of Bury St. Edmunds. When you see my map, you might picture it as turning the glove about 90 degrees east.
I also think I will move Merravay across the river. So you see, I hope you won't just accept my version of the map, but study the notes, and see how yours comes out.
I also sent this packet to Clive Lofts so he could see what we've been working on, and to Maggy Whitehouse, in hopes that she will find an artist (or possibly a cartographer) to come up with a professional map. Wouldn't that be a dream come true?
Sylvia, what can I say !!! I think you have just done marvels, I really do. I bet I speak for everyone when I say how much it will mean to us all and how it will make certain scenes come alive even more.I have no spatial intelligence much at all, and can hardly imagine how you have done it all. When it comes, I was thinking I might get a friend of mine to make a painting of it ( if that is OK with you? ) I was thinking also, I could have Mary's In Memoriam poem in the same frame , under the map.
Once again, thank you SO much for this labour of love. I can hardly wait for the outcome.
What a wonderful tribute and a labor of love. This map, along with Mary's poem would become a most precious possession in my house.
No, Sylvia, I wouldn't mind being the custodian of any additional NL map information that any members of the group want to send me. I didn't have the idea of my library getting any donation in mind when I offered to do this, either! (But that said, we live in a world where library budgets are tight, and my library never refuses any kind donations that we get.... :-) )Again, thanks for all the time and hard work you put in on this! You can justly regard yourself as a real trail-blazer in the area of Lofts scholarship, and I think that both serious fans and literary scholars will value your contribution for a long time to come.
Thank you all for your kind and lovely words! Now I am afraid you will be disappointed with my little map, which is nothing like the beautiful Clevely map. Mine is basically the shape of Layer Wood with dots for towns and squares for houses and the two named rivers. Please remember not to take my placements as definites. As I said above, I have already planned for a few changes myself. I LOVE the idea, Barbara, that you plan to have an artist paint the map! But I do hope you will first read all of our research notes and make any changes in locations that seem wrong to you.
Thanks again, Werner, a million times over, for being the "custodian" of this project. I look forward now to hearing what everybody thinks AFTER they view the packet!
Sylvia, thank you, thank you for doing such a marvelous job with the Layer Wood map! I sat down last night and read all your notes, keeping the map in front of me so I could get a visual on how the cities and houses tied back to the notes. What a labor of love this was. I am going to frame the map with Mary's poem, as suggested above, and give this a place of honor by the bookshelves where I keep Norah Lofts' books.
Hi Sylvia and Everyone,Firstly, a HUGE thank you for the Layer Wood Map, the references and the poem, which arrived here in England yesterday. They are wonderful. I will pass them on (together with all your suggestions) to Clive Lofts who will be thrilled.
Sylvia, I would have replied to you directly but didn't have an email address for you. But it's lovely to be back on the forum anyway.
Best wishes,
Maggy
Hi Maggy! So glad to see you back on the forum. Thanks so much for your welcome assistance in the march to keep NL's work available. I hope Clive is inspired to have all the Layer Wood books reprinted for the capturing of a new generation of readers. I did send him a packet with the notes and a map, but I think your encouragement may help him to see new possibilities.
Hi Sylvia,Well it's not Clive - it's us who has to decide what to publish when and we have to do it on economics I'm afraid. When each book re-issued has paid for itself in sales, we do another one. Slow progress so far - but we'll get there.
I thought you had said earlier that you now have all the rights, but when you said above that you would "pass them on...with suggestions to Clive", I got the wrong impression that maybe he did have a say in it. (I'm sorry - I live in a state of perpetual confusion!)Well, I did my part this past holiday by buying 3 new copies of "How Far To Bethlehem" for gifts. I also harrassed the local bookstore somewhat for not having the title in with their Christmas offerings. I had to order them from Amazon, but this coming season, I will start harrassing earlier.
I also bought a new copy of "The Concubine" at Barnes & Noble last year. Is that a Tree of Life Publishers reprint? It must have been.
Sylvia, this is just a thought, but most bookstores, if they don't stock a particular title, will be glad to special order it for you. The publisher or distributor gives them a bookstore discount, they charge you list price, and you don't have to pay the shipping and handling charge. (This way, you also don't have to give out a credit card number over the Internet, as you do when you buy from Amazon.)
Thanks, that's good to know, Werner. I figured that if I had Barnes&Noble order them, they would charge me more for the service. Sometimes, depending on where your orders are coming from, if you order at least $25 worth from Amazon, the s&h is free.
I won't say for certain that no bookstore will charge extra for special ordering a book, but it's never happened to me. (Of course, I've really only used that service at one bookstore, a home-owned one here in the Bluefields. But my impression is that their practices are pretty standard.)
I have just received my Layer Wood package from Sylvia - it is WONDERFUL! Not only is it beautifully presented but it is comprehensive and scholarly yet intensely personal too, to us die-hard fans. Not only is there immense detail and clever speculation as to how to interpret those details that seem inconsistent, but it incorporates many quotes and indications of the 'reality' of Layer Wood to the character ( and to us) I am SO pleased to have it and am SO grateful to Sylvia for her labours.
Thank you, thank you Syb.
I am grateful and humbled by your words, Barbara. After so much agonizing over many of the locations, I began to fear that I didn't have an instinct at all for this place we all love so much. Your comments affirm to me that maybe I got some of them right, though I am already working on some revisions!I have realized that one of the locations I was very sure about I neglected to put on the final copy - Stordford! If any would like to add it to their map, I believe it is located just southwest of Bury St. Edmunds, and would be shown as a castle (box) instead of a town to be consistent. There are many other places mentioned in the notes that didn't make it onto this map. I hope that by reading NL's descriptions, you will be able to work out locations for your own most beloved places.
Thanks, Barbara, and all of you, again for your positive comments on this project.
Hi Sheila and Everyone,I'm just popping by to say that Clive Lofts greatly appreciated all the work you put into the Layer Wood map and all the information you sent to us. He asked if I'd give you a big THANK YOU and he's treasuring the material you sent him.
Clive now lives in the coach house of the house he was raised in (it's still enormous and gorgeous). I've just uploaded a new image of Norah that he gave me, taken in 1962.
Hi Maggy! So good to see you on here again. That's great news that Mr. Lofts enjoyed our research and the map. Maybe it encouraged him to see how devoted and appreciative we are of his mother's body of work and also for his work in keeping it alive. Thank you for conveying his message to us.Are you currently reading any Lofts? We are getting ready to do a group read, probably for one of her oldest books - Colin Lowrey (aka Out of This Nettle). See "Chitter Chatter, if interested.
You are probably very busy writing your own books and doing research. I visit your website - have it on my Favorites list.
Thank you for uploading the photo of NL to the Lofts "Pictures" section. It's beautiful! Sylvia
Hi Sylvia and everyone,Lovely to hear from you. Clive loves that you are so enthusiastic ... he hopes that you'll spread the word so people will buy the new books - Simon and Schuster have five out now in the USA.
Best wishes,
Maggy
Maggy, I just ordered a new paperback of "Here Was a Man" (NL's 2nd book) from Alibris, via Bargainbooks, pub. by S&S, for only 99 cents! I was delighted to find it, but it also worries me that this kind of price will hurt the republishing of more NL books. What do you think?Please tell us here (or over at Norah Lofts Titles) the names of the pub. companies for NL's new reprints that we should be looking for, so that we can encourage the sales. It seems like one pub. co. can have three different divisions. Or is Simon & Schuster the best one?
Simon and Schuster is the only US publisher at the moment Sylvia. And yes, unfortunately, for small publishing companies like us, the 99c option is exactly why so few of Norah's books are being republished. We rely in the income from sales to subsidize the publishing process.However, they are out there ... and slowly the list increases. All good.
After another whole year of pondering our research, and rereading a few of NL's Layer Wood books, I have finished a revision of the original map I made and filed with Werner Lind, Librarian at Bluefield College in Virginia (USA). I have sent a copy of this map revision, along with one page of notes to Werner. The notes already on file explain that there are some distance and directional discrepancies in the various books, at least as my mind visualizes all of the locations. In particular, I fretted over the distances each house, manor, village, etc. had to travel to reach Byewater. The locations of such places as Bywater, Baildon, Beauclaire, Foxton, and Dunwich Castle are fairly certain, but many other locations are not. I began to see, as soon as I finished the first map, that those distances to Bywater would make more sense if I turned the whole "six fingered glove" shape of Layer Wood perpendicular to the first map's basic direction of all fingers pointing directly to the North Sea. The revised map shows the fingers pointing downward towards Byewater.I also changed the location of Knight's Acre, Intake, and Moyidan to directly north of Baildon because of the given location of Beauclaire being west of Baildon. The new location still makes this area "Layer Wood's last outpost" but to the north instead of to the east.
One other feature of the revised map is that I have shown the entire county of Suffolk, as well as the borders of Norfolk and Essex, where some of the stories take place.
I am much more satisfied with this map than my first attempt. I have already started on my wall hanging, which was my reason for starting this map project!
If anyone is interested in receiving a copy of this map revision, please write to Werner Lind. His library address is given in message 214 above. I suggest a small donation to his library to cover his time and the postage. Thanks, all!
My apologies for misspelling Bywater twice in the last post. Either Goodreads, or my email service, won't let me edit my mistakes.
Thanks for all the thought and hard work you've put into this project, Sylvia! You've served above and beyond the call of duty, and we really appreciate you.
