The History Book Club discussion
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1. AMERICAN SPHINX ~ PROLOGUE - 1 (BEG) (3 - 26) (01/01/10 - 01/07/10) ~ No spoilers, please
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I only just finished reading the first chapter and I must say that I think Ellis's description of Jefferson as a Sphinx is quite apt. He was full of paradoxes and contradictions. I'm interested to see which way the book will wind up slanting--positive or negative view of the man. I'm immensely enjoying it so far and I wish I could keep reading, but alas! I have to read for school.
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Joe wrote: "Charles wrote: "I found the Marshal book very illuminating, especially the 2nd read (which I seldom do). Hopefully we can address this book (if it hasn't already been a club choice). "Thank-you f..."
Covering much of the ground in a different light is Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow which I found to be another great read (unsure why no images have appeared) especially when covering Jefferson.
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Ron ChernowHi Charles,
Did you have some problems adding the book cover and photo? I have added it for you this time. Thank you for the recommendation.
Bentley
Thank you for letting me know Bentley. I tried not to spoil anything because I saw the "no spoilers." But I didn't know where to go for the spoilers thread. I know I have plenty of time; I just wish I could sit and devour the book.
Mod
Charles wrote: "Joe wrote: "Charles wrote: "I found the Marshal book very illuminating, especially the 2nd read (which I seldom do). Hopefully we can address this book (if it hasn't already been a club choice). "..."
Thanks for that recommendation, Charles. I have been thinking about picking that book up as well.
I remember awhile back when Ron Chernow was being interviewed for that book, and he was very passionate. Alexander Hamilton truly deserves our full attention, and he should not be overshadowed by his contemporaries. I must say, we as a group, have succeeded in that regard with our discussion of the Federalist Papers, even though most of us would love to spend more time there.
First of all, I vote yes for Jefferson/Hemmings fatherhood. I can't argue with DNA.On the slavery issue, as mentioned, owning slaves if you lived in the South and owned property was the way of life. Yes, Jefferson was contradictory in his owning slaves in one hand and saying 'all men are created equal' on the other. But this was the way he was raised, and I believe we will discover further his true understanding of what equality was. Another differing point among slave owners was how they treated their slaves. I imagine most of us have read in our history books/courses that a good number of slaves wanted to stay with their owners who had been kind to them, rather than go out in the world free and alone and unprotected. I wonder if and suspect maybe that Jefferson was overall kind to his slaves. As to the moral issue and presentism, killing another person, for example, is always immoral and against the law, but owning slaves before the Civil War wasn't: it was a way of life.
Virginia wrote: "First of all, I vote yes for Jefferson/Hemmings fatherhood. I can't argue with DNA.On the slavery issue, as mentioned, owning slaves if you lived in the South and owned property was the way of l..."
May I suggest a current book
by
and John Stauffer [no link available:] where a large cross-section of the 'negro-class' is discussed. I believe you will find that the 'story' from the whites agrees with what you have stated and it may have played well in the press, but the stories from the blacks are quite the opposite. Once the segregationists returned to power after the Civil War, blacks felt they may have had it better as chattel. One doesn't shoot a good mule, but a n[epithet for black:] is good for hanging or roasting.As for Jefferson's views on slavery, you might want to view a summary of John Locke. There are several pages within the current reading area where Locke is mentioned as an influence on Jefferson.
Will do; thanks. I was particularly referring to the slaves' original owners who were kind and who they wanted to stay with, no one else. I shall check out the reference.
Mod
On the slavery issue, as mentioned, owning slaves if you lived in the South and owned property was the way of l..."
Hi Virginia..so glad that you are back posting. And I have to agree that at that time owning slaves was what the plantation owners knew. It was their way of life and the only life they knew how to live.
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by authors Sally Jenkins and John StaufferCharlie...thank you for valiantly trying to add the book correctly. In the case of the book you cited which looks like a terrific one; you were thrown some curve balls. You cited John Stauffer solely as the author..is that the case because this book seems to have been entered into goodreads with the first listing as being author Sally Jenkins with John Stauffer listed in second place.
First the book cover was added perfectly and you did try to add the photo but there were no photos available for either author. In that case, when you discover this...simply add the author's links next. If there is no photo, we do not need to see the no photo icon (smile).
If there are two authors, then you can add them as I did in the example above. I did find John Stauffer also listed and added his link. I would be very interested to find out if this book has been entered into goodreads correctly.
In the case of this book, the entry should look like the example that I have added for you in this post.
I hope this helps you.
Bentley
Thank-you, Virginia and Charles for your comments.Although I agree with you, Virginia, about Jefferson fathering some, if not all, of Sally Hemings children, the DNA evidence was not 100% conclusive. I guess I was hoping to read some debate in this matter, but everyone here seems to agree... even the staff at the TJF.
Thanks again for the book recommendation, Charles. I will have to take a look at that one. And, as you have read from Bentley's post, we have been diligent in trying to help our members format their book covers and author recommendations within posts. Thanks, Bentley for doing that.
Mod
Joe is correct in that proper citation is one of the group's guidelines and rules. Thank you all.
Joe wrote: "Jim wrote: "Joe wrote: "Lori wrote: "I've only read a couple of pages, but I think the title is interesting. I mean, we have Thomas Jefferson--American Sphinx, we have Andy Jackson--American Lion,..."Bentley wrote: "Interesting point..when Jefferon wrote all men are created equal...he was not talking about a black man at the time and certainly not a black woman. Even when you look at the original constitution..."
So to put my two cents in about the issue of equality and slavery. I sort of want to believe what Bentley says that Blacks were not viewed by Jefferson as men - but then how does he have, which he seemed to have, a long term relationship fathering children with a black woman. But maybe viewing her as his property and then resulting children also as his property was an accepted standard in his community?
I am curious how this will or will not redefine as we move forward.
Next month at the New York Historical Society we have tickts to attend a session with Annette Gordon Reed, the historian author of The Heminges of Monticello which will be interesting - but not time to read the book before hand
Joe wrote: "Jim wrote: "Joe wrote: "Lori wrote: "I've only read a couple of pages, but I think the title is interesting. I mean, we have Thomas Jefferson--American Sphinx, we have Andy Jackson--American Lion,..."Just also a comment on the idolization of Jefferson - some years ago I took an undergraduate history course called "Great men in western civilization" shutying what the insturctor, or the department, thought were the four most influential men since Christ in the west.
The majority of the class were, me included, at the time, disappointed that Jefferson was not included.
Anyway if one is curious the four were Martin Luther, Napoleon, Lenin and Hitler
Mod
That sounds interesting.
I'm sure this will be explored by us and Ellis, but we forget that it was common for white men to have sexual relations with slaves.
Vince,We need not forget that Sally Hemings was not just one of Thomas Jefferson's slaves. She was a fair complected mulatto who not only was related to the Jefferson family through marriage, but was also thought "to resemble her half-sister", Jefferson's wife Martha. "Jefferson's father-in-law, John Wayles, had outlived three wives and then openly settled his affections on his mulatto slave Elizabeth Hemings. They had six children together. Sally was the youngest."
These are some of the things that helped change my mind about Jefferson fathering Sally Hemings' children. Some of Jefferson's slaves were not just slaves. They were family. Also, to Thomas Jefferson's children, Sally was their aunt.
Source: Page 14 of "A Wilderness So Immense: The Louisiana Purchase and the Destiny of America" by Jon Kukla
by Jon Kukla
Good post, Joe. We will never know what the relationship was between TJ and Sally, but we do know that he favored her and her family-freed them at the end of his life. This says something.
Mod
Good question, Bentley. Maybe he felt the Hemings would be "better off" living their lives at Monticello, a better life, in his opinion, than freedom. I wonder why his daughter, Martha, freed her, though. Maybe since she knew that she had to sell Monticello, freeing Sally would give her a better chance to be with family living in Charlotttesville, than being under a new owner.
Mod
It could be that Martha felt at that point in time that it was the right thing to do and possibly that is what Sally wanted.
From your post, I guess it is fair to assume that these might be some of the same questions, some of the folks at Monticello must have been asking.
Thank you Bryan.
I just started listening to a course "Cycles of American Polital Thought" from the teaching Compnay (Joseph Kobylka) and one of the early lines is something like "1776... 55 white guys" meeting to write a constitution - an commented it was for white men - not blacks - not woman etc - it was a commentary on the different values and truths of that time..it was just that I heard it yesterday and it struck me as a timely comment for us......................
I just recently joined this group, and I picked up a copy of Amerinca Sphinx at the library this past Saturday. I've read the prologue, and I am so excited about diving in. I've already learned a lot from this discussion - thanks for all the great posts above!Like some of you, I was a little put off at the author's comments that between Lincoln and Jefferson, Jefferson was the more loved. I admit my mental images of our founding fathers are perhaps too one-dimensional: Ben Franklin as the wealthy eccentric, George Washington as the stoic, brave and practical military genious who later set the American presidency on a strong course, John Adams as the curmudgeonly man with an extremely sharp legal and political mind, and Thomas Jefferson as the young, poetic rebel.
My favorite founding father and American president? It's George Washington.
Given that there are so many books on Jefferson, I might be one of the few who haven't read much about him. I am looking forward to what I'll learn with this book and the group discussion!
Mod
Thanks for picking up the book and joining us, Kay. And, yes, I am delighted.And I haven't read much about Jefferson either...
About books on Jefferson, I have been a little disappointed with the selection about our 3rd President lately. But being such a conflicting, complex individual, authors really must have their hands full trying to write authoritatively about him. But I am enjoying the book so far and am anticipating the chapters to follow.
And again, thanks for posting Kay.
One thing I had to get used to is that Ellis is not writing a traditional biography. I have read two other standard political biographies of TJ and this is a bit different. I'm curious to ask Ellis fans how this one rates among his others.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Wilderness So Immense: The Louisiana Purchase and the Destiny of America (other topics)The State of Jones: The Small Southern County That Seceded from the Confederacy (other topics)
The State of Jones: The Small Southern County That Seceded from the Confederacy (other topics)
Alexander Hamilton (other topics)
Alexander Hamilton (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jon Kukla (other topics)John Stauffer (other topics)
Sally Jenkins (other topics)
Sally Jenkins (other topics)
Ron Chernow (other topics)
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Thank-you for your comments, Charles.
I really enjoyed the first 3/4 of the book so far... Especially the story of him during the Revolutionary War. I really enjoyed Smith's version of American pre-revolutionary/revolutionary history through Marshall's eyes. My main goal has been to gather more of an insight into how Marshall and Jefferson interacted, but I was surprised at how galvanizing a figure Marshall was. We all can thank none-other-than George Washington himself for all but threatening Marshall for entering politics. (No one knows what was said that early morning at Mount Vernon, but Marshall did say it was "heated" or something to that effect) If it wasn't for Washington, Marshall wouldn't have become half the man he was.
I would definitely cast my vote for this book if it ever came up in one of our polls.