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Amazon vs. Macmillan
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Or more publishers may go down this route..Quote: The probable entry of Apple and its tablet into the e-book market gives publishers hope that they might gain some leverage in negotiations with Amazon. They could, for example, delay the release of e-books in the Kindle store while selling more expensive versions for the Apple tablet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/technology/21reader.html?pagewanted=2&src=tptw
Interesting.I would like to see the mark up differences betweeen e-book and physical copy. Most new relase hard covers in Canada range from 30 to 35 bucks CDA. I still think 15 bucks it to much of a mark up.
With that said, I think Amazon is acting like a bully, a'la Walmart. If Amazon wants the lower price they should offer the discount.
Charles Stross posted a very concise view of how the industry works, is changing, and what lies behind the move made by MacMillan.http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-...
I have to agree with Stross. Amazon has become so big they assume they are holding all the cards. Publishers need to stand up. With no books to sell Amazon will be in trouble.Another point of view.
http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2010/01/...
I have not read it yet.
So..now my pre-orders with Amazon are mostly all screwed up because of course all of the books I've tried to order are from Tor Books....Though I have a notice that they're shipping the Steven Brust books I ordered to bring one order up to reach the free shipping level (with a pre-ordered GRRM compilation). So who knows what I'll have to do now..
Sorry I have to disagree with the lemming mentality.This is a publisher that thinks they can force the "readers" to pay more than the established industry standard $9.99 for a new e-book or better yet wait seven months to even get the book from Amazon yet they want to play favorites for other distributors and give better prices. This is exactly what the RIAA and MPAA is trying to do to music and movies and we all know how that is doing for them.
Stross and Scalzi like to talk allot but they are small time writers that only see the money angle while the older more established writers see this as a bad move on MacMillan's part. The chances of this hurting Amazon more than MacMillan is very small as Amazon will still get revenue from MacMillan's books trough its retail channel which hasn't been stopped.
- Brad
Mod
Here's another good summary of the situation so far, by author Scott Westerfeld:
http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=2138
I wasn't dismissing either side of the argument nor was I bashing anyone on this forum I was trying to simplify the enter blogosphere’s reaction, but it is your forum and your free to marginalize any dissenting voice as you see fit (that wasn't me being mad, I'm just trying to make a point. I think this is one of the friendlier moderated forums and a great group overall).~
I think this is a major loss for book buyers no matter what happens in the long run. I find MacMillan's move to be nothing but a money grab and Amazon’s reaction a power grab. The only people that will be hurt is the buying public.
I do find it funny that the people who side with MacMillan forgets that the e-book publishing business has been around for a bit over a decade and that the $9.99 price was a standard created before Amazon got into the business. I know I have e-books on my Kindle that have date stamps of 1997 and I might have a few that’s older on my home server if I care to check.
I also find it odd that Amazon didn’t try to counter the deal, they could have raised the price for seven months then lower it to the standard $9.99 after that if MacMillan is being honest about their reasons. I also find it grievous that they want Amazon to not offer an e-book for seven months after it hits the press that’s the exact same thing the MPAA is doing to Netflix and Redbox and it's hurting their industry more than the few bucks more they make off of the forced deal. I know I won’t buy another DVD in my lifetime over that. I do rent from Netflix, Redbox, and Amazon on Demand but I won’t buy another movie.
I’m hoping I won’t have to do that with books as I nearly always buy at least a paperback version of what I buy on the Kindle in second hand stores if I can but this might change my buying habits which is a shame as I like several Del Rey authors luckily there’s forward thinking smaller houses like Baen and Tor that understands the ‘long tail’ approach to the modern world.
Overall I think Amazon isn’t a complete villain but has problems with it’s pride while MacMillan is far from the saint the blogosphere is trying to paint them.
- Brad
Mod
I'm "free to marginalize any dissenting voice as I see fit"?
If that's how you interpret what I wrote, I don't think there's much point in continuing this discussion.
Stefan
I have to wonder a little bit about the royalties these bigger publishers give for eBooks. I mean, with all the talk from some authors about making more money. Dealing in eBooks, they should already be making more money. There's no reason that royalties on eBooks shouldn't be higher for authors. The initial copy of an eBook might take some effort to make, but producing additional copies doesn't cost enough to be worth mentioning (not unless they're doing it wrong).
So I can't help but wonder why Macmillan needs $15 a pop for them. But well, I also think that the eBook industry still has a bit further to go than some enthusiasts would believe, at this point. There are a lot of kinks to work out, everything from pricing to distribution, as all this shows.
I think Stefan's link to Scott Westerfield is a great breakdown of what is going on. Especially liked this quote from it:Yes, Amazon gets to set whatever prices it wants. (Free market!) But guess what, Macmillan also gets to release its electronic editions later if it feels simultaneous release is not in its best interests and those of its allies. (Free market again, sir!) And yes, Amazon gets to de-list an entire publisher if it wants to, even on a whim
Stefan wrote: "Brad wrote: "I wasn't dismissing either side of the argument nor was I bashing anyone on this forum I was trying to simplify the enter blogosphere’s reaction, but it is your forum and your free to ..."*sigh* That came out wrong I guess, I wasn't trying to mean you were ham-fisting things just that dismissing an argument is a two way street. I shouldn't reply to things that late at night with my lack of social skills.
Sorry if I offended you.
- Brad
Brad wrote: "I also find it odd that Amazon didn’t try to counter the deal, they could have raised the price for seven months then lower it to the standard $9.99 after that if MacMillan is being honest about their reasons."Actally thats exactly what MacMillan has said. New books will start out at a higher price and over time the price will drop.
Amanda wrote: "I think Stefan's link to Scott Westerfield is a great breakdown of what is going on. Especially liked this quote from it:Yes, Amazon gets to set whatever prices it wants. (Free market!) But gu..."
It goes a bit deeper than that, if Macmillan strikes a better deal with Apple, Amazon will have a leg to stand on in court over anti-trust/monopoly grounds which is probably the point of Amazon doing what it did and then backing off.
The amount of consumer lock-in that Apple and Macmillan can and will bring to bear is staggering in such a small venue and the point of the iPad isn't that it's a tablet or a laptop it's an e-book and movie reader first and foremost. Apple is purposely going after Amazon and Sony the way it did with music and movies so I don't think this is going to go away any time soon.
- Brad
Just read the Westerfeld link.I still cant get my head around the whole e-book still costs around the same amount as a printed version. 3% to 10%. I can't beleive it.
Other than that, I whole heartedly agree.
Ken wrote: "Just read the Westerfeld link.I still cant get my head around the whole e-book still costs around the same amount as a printed version. 3% to 10%. I can't beleive it.
Other than that, I whole he..."
As far as the peanut gallery is concerned (me!) your absolutely right.
E-books are a non-limited resource, once the original is created there is no cost in duplicating it and all the publishers require authors to submit an electronic form (usually Word) so there not even scanning the file just running it through Adobe and then there DRM format software so were talking the cost of a bit of electricity and only a tiny bit at that.
In my view this is a money grab after what they saw the RIAA do but there not seeing the long tail effect that Baen and Tor see’s just the easy money without the side effects (the RIAA is losing all of those court cases now). I bet they’ve talked to Steve Job’s and he’s convinced them they can topple the big bad Amazon and Sony giants with a well thrown rock. Unfortunately they don’t see what the consumer backlash can do if they keep ratcheting this conflict up. And it doesn't help that Amazon has historicly been a bully like Wal-Mart over matters like this.
- Brad
I'm not concerned with the cost of a bit of electricity. I'm very concerned with the compensation of the creative genius without which there would be nothing of quality to buy. TINSTAAFL
From what I've read on the more established author’s blogs there's a disconnect between what the publisher gets and what the author gets (no surprise) that's why I'm a subscriber at jerrypournelle.com and a few other authors that I like since I know they get 100% of that money.Funny enough most of them have no idea if there books are e-books or not as that's a publisher deal not there’s. Granted I’m not a writer nor do I have aspirations of being one so I’m just second guessing the issue from what I’ve read on various author and media sites.
- Brad
This is a complex issue, and no question.Note: when paperbacks first hit the marketplace, it caused a similar upset - up to then, publishers only printed hardbacks - with "mass market" came the chance to reach a far wider slice of the market. It created a "golden age" of sorts when cheap books meant many more readers read many more books.
The way paperbacks are racked, sold, and distributed - and the cost of them, driven up by an increasingly high percentage of returns - whiplashed the publishers into contortions in the 80s and 90s.
The nineties gave us the collapse of the independent distribution market's diversity, and the dominance of the chains...both of which created "national buyers" which determined mass content, chain wide.
The chains had a history of shoving publishers - influencing, rather heavily - what could be shelved, or not, what prices, what numbers - publishers lost ground in being able to launch new or original idea type authors...we saw a shift from the small profit/steady success/invest in talent and let the growth curve happen type model, to a new book/new author MUST perform now, or we dump them for another, and try again, bigger better faster cheaper - the longterm support, even the quality of books dropped - the career curve was forced to spike up front.
Enter Amazon - Stross's link sums up what happened there. I have heard 20 years of heartache from my editors - about what new writers they could NOT buy, that they wanted to; about what they WISHED they could do for their readerships - but couldn't. Because of the push/pull of distribution, and the muscle applied from the outlet end prevented.
Once upon a time, before mega corporate quarterly profits, before mass market, mass media - publishing was a gentleman's BUSINESS and ten percent profit margin was successful expectation. Publishers did not expect an author to become profitable until about their fourth book - all gone. Now, a book cannot be bought without a P&L (profit and loss) statement UP FRONT that guarantees 20 percent, or more. How do they guess the market? By comparing this book to another that went before - what you get is a dramatic loss of individuality.
It's harder and harder to guarantee that margin - prices of shipping/paper/warehousing - all shot up. NUMBERS since the crash of the ID market and the loss of literally thousands of independent bookstores (driven under by chain discounting, forced by the marketers) have drastically reduced the numbers of books sold. More hits - warehousing shifts - fewer big distribution channels, and, other factors - price driven - have shifted things into worse arrears.
Also mega corporate mergers forcing down competitors - we have maybe four to six major markets (big name publishers) for SF/Fantasy where there used to be over 20! I cannot tell you how many authors/gifted illustrators who once were too busy to schedule themselves - now out of work, or gone into work for hire gaming. The talent drain would stop your breath.
New talent - I don't even want to start.
If I were to tell you some (considered) MAJOR names in Fantasy/SF whose numbers are literally on the edge - who have to fight not to crash and burn, under today's market pressures - you would definitely weep.
YES, e books can be produced by the author to better profit - but without the major distribution going for them FIRST, you would never even know they were there. Jerry Pournelle is on your radar because of the publishing model, earlier on, put him there.
There has to be a shake up - this battle of the titans HAS to happen - it's long and long in the coming, and I cheer that it's here. Let everyone be loud in their opinion and may the whole thing open up a more ethical arrangement - for everyone concerned.
Too much oversimplification is going on - MacMillan wants (also, if you read) to be ABLE to price e books lower than $9.99. I see a successful model where an indemand book can pay out better, then be reduced - as generating capitol to INVEST in a riskier new work, or hold a talent on the list until they can start to earn. It is not all about greed, on the publisher's side. The hits to that business that has had a narrow margin all along have been prodigious in the past 20 years, it's been death by a thousand cuts. For every "harry potter" there's been billions of titles that cost more than they earned to produce, or made little.
Yes, e books have little overhead. But to say they cost nothing off an author's file is an oversimplified understatement. Edit/copy-edit/proof-read/art/cover copy/advertising/promotion/distribution - all play a role to get the book into your hands. If you think these things are "nothing" go read some stuff out there that did not get professionally produced - there's plenty of it. Enjoy it on the raw.
I am glad this shakeup is happening - I see that good may come of it. Publishers and distributors are going to have to see reason, and listen to their consumers. Out of the chaos could come something much better for everyone concerned.
Publishers have been forced to drastically cut the quality of their products all across the boards (look at your latest new hardback, and tell me where the "cloth" in the binding WENT?) Everything's gone down, from care in typographical errors, to paper, to length, to artwork....in an effort to cut costs, I can tell you, there are not enough personnel in the departments to do a decent job! and writers themselves are having to do more and more and more of what the publisher used to be able to supply.
I hope the shake-up wakes things up and educates, and that we get a thoughtful solution.
Ideally? Writer would spend their working hours writing, and not self-produce - marketers would do what they do best, and so would production personnel - and you would have more books of high quality, e books or paper. Everybody wins. The pie has gotten all skewed up, and distribution IS the choker. What we need is a reasonable channel - not a mass free for all (go to it yourself on the internet, good luck getting seen or heard).
It's not simple, the business model is not simple, and the force the outlets against the producers, what the consumers feel they rightfully should have - it's an equation that needs a good gust of fresh air. Have at it, is my take - and build a more level playing field for everyone.
I thought that things were supposed to be smoothed out now but Macmillan is still not available on Amazon.
Marty wrote: "I thought that things were supposed to be smoothed out now but Macmillan is still not available on Amazon."Yeah, some seem to be re-listed, and some aren't.
I just looked for this Tor book, and not only is it back on Amazon, but they're listed at a Bargain Price, which they weren't when I was pricing them out a week or two ago. Not sure if the bargain prices are a lure to buyers?
However, I tried looking for Wolf Hall, and that hasn't been re-listed, and neither has Darwinia. But I did see RJS's WWW:Wake is only $3.53 direct from Amazon!
Maybe they're bringing them back up slowly? It's very odd...
@Chris. OMG! I laughed out loud so much my husband posted on his Facebook status that 'my wife is losing it.' :)
New York Times article: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01...
John Sargent (Macmillan):
http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/...
And of course many Tor authors have blogged extensively about this (and several have removed links to Amazon from their blogs).
Hopefully this'll all clear up soon...