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Fahrenheit 451-Part Two, The Sieve and the Sand
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Joanie
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May 03, 2008 05:54AM
I really liked the story behind the title of this part of the book. Montag trying to read as much as he can and trying desperately to retain it all does seem like a futile mission-like trying to fill a sieve with sand. It just all feels so desparate and sad.
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There are some wonderful little moments in Bradbury's writing, like the story connected to the chapter title. Not that it's so happy/jolly, but that it's so evocative of the overall feeling that Montag is experiencing -- even some of the panic.
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Faber tells Montag that books are important for 3 reasons...1. They have quality ("They show the pores in the face of life.") 2. We need the leisure to digest them. 3. We need the right to carry out action based on what we learn from the interaction of the first two.
"Most of us can't rush around, talk to everyone, know all the cities of the world, we haven't time, money or that many friends. The things you're looking for, Montag, are in the world, but the only way the average chap will ever see ninety-nine per cent of them is in a book. Don't ask for guarantees. And don't look to be saved in any one thing, person, machine, or library. Do your own bit of saving, and if you drown, at least die knowing you were heading for shore."
This is a great quote that I had written down 15 years ago when I first read this. The writing here is spectacular.
I'm curious about the origin of the names Montag & Faber...
Montag is "appropriately named after a paper-manufacturing company" and Faber is "named after a famous publisher".
Also, the poem Montag read's to Mildred's friends is "Dover Beach". I put that out as a trivia question!! http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/po...
Alison -- I agree -- I absolutely loved that quote. I agree that Bradbury's writing is incredible. Apparently, he wrote the central story behind Fahrenheit 451 on a typewriter that he rented by the hour. It has that effortless feel that makes it so easy and enjoyable to read. Faber was the perfect character for this section. It is almost as if Bradbury inserted Thoreau or Emerson to explain the importance of books and the things behind them.
I loved:
"I don't talk things, sir. I talk the meaning of things. I sit here and know I'm alive."
Faber is the perfect continuation of Clarisse, as she was fresh innocence, hope and youth, while he is wisdom and insight (not to be too trite or stereotypical).
Perhaps my favorite quote of the book:
"No, no, it's not the books at all you're looking for! Take it where you can find it, in old phonograph records, old motion pictures and in old friends; look for it in nature and look for it in yourself. Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, how they stitched the patches of the universe together the patches of the universe into one garment for us."
Which makes me think of our former member's complaint that we only talked about cookies, shows, lush and movies and not about books. When really, what we were discussing were all the facets of life that held meaning for us at the time.
What does everyone think of Montag's reading of "Dover Beach" to the ladies and his indictment of them for living in oblivion with their "families" while their real lives crumbled?
I must admit, it is a compelling idea, although certainly bad for him -- to desire to "force" people to question the reality that they ignore while escaping into something meaningless (at least according to one's definition). But in the end, did not really have any effect except to hurt Montag.
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Montag's reading of "Dover Beach" was likely a great shock to their systems. The one lady is so overcome with emotion.
Great posts here everyone. I thought the story behind the title was tied in in so many ways -- Bradbury is amazing. The futility or seeming futility of pouring the books into the mind echoing the sand and the burning hands from Montag's job as fireman echoing the heat and burning of hands from the sand.I loved Faber's take that it isn't only the books but the approach to them and that the path can be likewise used to take in necessary sustenance from nature and other enriching uses of one's time.
Is the movement today by many people to slow down their lives similar in some way to this idea? And the society "yammering" at the people every moment of every day -- though they still have an on/off switch for their wall TVs, they don't use them much -- is very like today's incessant sound. If the TV today ran as long as the walls did in this story, I'd be comatose, I think, dulled beyond function. It seems to fit today's lifestyles -- constant sound and/or images. then I think -- how much time is Goodreads taking up for me which I could use elsewhere. Hmmm? Immediately the response is but it's about books -- but the real idea is it's about the ideas in books and the freedom to discuss those ideas -- to have ideas arise from bits found in this book and another book.
I found this one has a great deal to say about life beyond the value of having books -- more about life and the processes used for living life having value. Books as a part of processing a good, better, best life?
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In the different sections, his "mentors" on learning to think are like in the stages of life. Montag first encounters a girl who rouses him to the things around him. With naiveté Clarisse brings him the wonder of childhood and the growth and awakening that comes with that. And in that his responses are brash and fitful, lacking in direction. Then he goes to Faber, and he is like a parent or a teacher who gently, lovingly both instructs and disciplines in order to bring understanding and control. (Even in admitting his weaknesses he is doing this.) Then, jumping ahead, in the third part we see him spreading his wings in the world and making his way, knowing now his destiny...
Second, Dottie... you said, "I found this one has a great deal to say about life beyond the value of having books -- more about life and the processes used for living life having value." That is a really astute synopsis piggybacking on Courtney's quote.
In contemplating this, the key is in the thinking and the feeling that goes along with it, isn't it? If it is something adds to the noise, that distracts us from focusing and garnering understanding, then it is part of the problem. The thing is, all of it - books, television, music, sports, adventure - can fall on either side. The problem lies one, in the mania of having/doing/experiencing everything and two, as Bradbury so aptly conveys, in taking the leisure time to digest.
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Wow. That is seriously poignant... and ominous. And truthful. Huh. I don't even know where to begin to comment on that!
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This is my favorite bit about the role of books, though... "The books are to remind us what asses and fools we are." :D
Here's a great one on society: "Our civilization is flinging itself to pieces. Stand back from the centrifuge." It's followed, of course, by: "There has to be someone ready when it blows up." (Can you say "foreshadowing" and "destiny?")
I think when he says, "Those who don't build must burn," Bradbury is really honing in on hugely significant aspect of society. Don't you think if we are not creating, building up, we are in some way destroying? Whether in our personal lives, within society, or as a society I find this to be true.
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I thought it was so dead-on (even wrote that in the margin with the stars marking it) when Faber was talking about how nobody missed the newspapers said, "And the Government, seeing how advantageous it was to have people reading only about passionate lips and the fist in the stomach, circled the situation with your fire-eaters." I mean, today even when reporting the news, it's all about what the public likes to hear - the sensational. They gage from our responses what to print, show, etc. It's not about quality or expression in the least. It's about mass consumption... and the dumber it is the better, so as to draw a wider audience.
Some of you brought up the poem. Don't you think that Mrs. Phelps' response was a deep, guttural response to both the beauty and the sadness of the poem? I mean, the women were so unused to feeling anything beyond giddy elation, and particularly to feeling anything without being "cued" or told to feel it. That alone would be frightening, don't you think? It's like always seeing the world from a cage - never knowing sight without the bars in front of your eyes - then having them suddenly removed... a very scary thing to be experiencing when you didn't know the world could be seen that way, and had been told that it was WRONG to as well.
To always be empty and suddenly to have something poured into you? Truly that would be astonishing and frightening and strange. Particularly so because you would forever remember what that felt like and grapple with the longing as well as the revulsion. It goes back to the idea he put out there earlier when speaking initially about politics about not giving two options, nor even one. Man is then "happier."
Oh!! And that brings me to a really BIG thought. Don't you think that in a sense this is one enormous diatribe on America's "pursuit of happiness?" How destructive that pursuit, particularly at all costs, can be?
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"But remember, the Captain belongs to the most dangerous enemy of truth and freedom, the solid and unmoving cattle of the majority. Oh, God, the terrible tyranny of the majority."
Wow.
May I just say, wow.
Does this effect anyone else as deeply as it does me? Maybe I am the only one to have been an outsider.
Actually, I just looked at the quote again and it actually brought to mind To Kill a Mockingbird and the plight of the south and how the "terrible tyranny" of the majority nearly one out... were it not for one man seeking the truth at all costs. Indeed, that then brings to mind all the other plights of individuals facing injustice because of the majority dictates what is "right" and "acceptable." These are the large scale ways to look at this, but on an individual level it is gripping as well. A high school student facing malicious slander, for one.
Sorry gang. I'll shut up about this section now. If you have done so, thanks so much for listening to what I have to say. To my celebration of freedom of thought!
Michele -- Amen to all. Excellent commentary.
"But remember, the Captain belongs to the most dangerous enemy of truth and freedom, the solid and unmoving cattle of the majority. Oh, God, the terrible tyranny of the majority."Michele -- I love this quote as well! I had a really intense reaction to this book as well. It felt extremely relevant to me, as though someone were singing my song.
Michele - you said: In contemplating this, the key is in the thinking and the feeling that goes along with it, isn't it? If it is something adds to the noise, that distracts us from focusing and garnering understanding, then it is part of the problem. The thing is, all of it - books, television, music, sports, adventure - can fall on either side. The problem lies one, in the mania of having/doing/experiencing everything and two, as Bradbury so aptly conveys, in taking the leisure time to digest.
This point is extremely apt. Think of Millie's constant consumption of her "family" and her ear plugs. I find this very resonant in our current culture, as if everything has to be an escape from anything real or difficult. But SOME escape is necessary for coping with stress, etc.
What do you guys think marks the line between reflective and constant consumption as an escape? I know I have even done this in the past (which perhaps shows why I have read so many fluff books) with books, movies, and tv. I tend to find 99.9% of network tv ridiculous, but I can totally spend a day watching a few seasons of a cable show. For me, I find extensive periods of escape through consumption to be so overstimulating that it kills my creativity as well as my ability to focus and think deeply. But I have only discovered this after years and years of wondering why I feel less smart or creative or focused. On the other hand, I still spend HUGE amounts of time watching movies or reading.
Hmmm. . . I am really unsure about "Knocked Up." It has moments of brilliance, but then devolves into utter stupidity.
As I was reading these posts, the thought occurred to me that perhaps Mildred and the other women were the sieves. Montag was trying to fill them with the love of literature and knowledge, and to teach them to look at their lives. It went right through them. He then became very upset, just as he had as a child, because they wouldn't be filled.I was also struck by the women making their decisions about politics based on appearance. Isn't this something that became very much in play when debates were first televised? Specifically, a debate between Kennedy and Nixon. Kennedy all young and handsome and composed, while Nixon was seen sweating and uncomfortable. Bradbury was ahead of his time. I confess to being tempted to make decisions in a similarly superficial way. In the recent primary, I actually abstained, because I hadn't really gathered enough info to make a decision. But I did quip to a few people, "well, all of the cool people on my street have signs for _____in their yards."
What do you make of Mildred and her sleeping pills? Is it that she is unhappy? Is it that she dreads the time away from her "family" because she might think about things, and thinking makes her uncomfortable?
Do you think Mildred was ever jealous of Clarisse?
(Courtney, I just didn't find it AT ALL believable that Katherine Heigl's character would give the guy another chance. Far more likely that she'd write him off as a loser and have the baby on her own.)
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I mean, if it was then would she have turned her husband in? She wouldn't have cared or felt that fear because if she died, she died. The book does leave this tenuous, purposefully I should think, but for me in looking at her behavior following this incident, it would seem to me that it was completely unintentional. It was highlighting the extreme distraction that the TV/earbuds gave... distraction to the point that she can't even sleep and must take the pills as well as distraction to the point that she doesn't remember she took them several times already.
The thing is, though, maybe it's just too disturbing for me to think about it as being something intentional but then forgotten the very next morning. Either is frightening, but the second is... truly, deeply distressing.
I wasn't necessarily thinking she had intentionally OD'd, but I was wondering about why she habitually took sleeping pills.
I sort of viewed it as Mildred's repressed despair rising to the surface. Almost as if thre real Mildred was in there somewhere, but that the constant ear shell things and the wall o' TV brainwashed or zombified her in a way. And the real, inner Mildred was the one that attempted suicide, and the zombie Mildred was the one who couldn't remember it the next morning.
whoa - loving the discussion posts for this book! lots of great points. I finished this last week but am just now getting around to reading these posts. So glad I have! lots to speak to here:First, regarding the comments on newspapers becoming something of a sham both in the book and in real life, I saw a movie recently that addressed this issue as well - Lions for Lambs. Take a close look at Meryl Streep's character.
Another related issue that comes up in that movie is the politics of appearances. One of the main characters is positively sickened by the superficiality of the world by the end of the film -similar in ways to Montag's reaction. This is definitely an issue we deal with today. I've seen it brought up numerous times recently with regard to female political candidates in particular.
Michele great observation about the book possibly being a commentary on America's "Pursuit of Happiness". hadn't even considered that, but it's definitely spot on.
Regarding extensive amounts of tv, I seriously start feeling like I'm on the verge of going crazy when I sit around and watch tv all day. even if it's something I really enjoy - GG or HGTV - especially if there are commercials I have to sit through. I just feel physically sick and exhausted by the end. and it's the same with other mindless pursuits - dice, cards, whatnot. I don't mind mindless activities occasionally, but it kills me when that's all my relatives ever want to do. I end up feeling restless and often have to go out for a walk, away from people and time-killing activities, just to stay sane. But at the same time, I'm really not sure what more I'm after. What makes books any better as an escape?
also, this reminds me of a quote I liked from this section, when Guy is trying to get through to the ladies:
"Montag said nothing but stood looking at the women's faces as he had once looked at the faces of saints in a strange church he had entered when he was a child. The faces of those enameled creatures meant nothing to him, though he talked to them and stood in that church for a long time, trying to be of that religion, trying to know what that religion was, trying to get enough of the raw incense and special dust of the place into his lungs and thus into his blood to feel touched and concerned by the meaning of the colorful men and women with the porcelain eyes and the blood-ruby lips. But there was nothing, nothing; it was a stroll through another store, and his currency strange and unusable there, and his passion cold, even when he touched the wood and plaster and clay."
As for Millie, I always thought it was her subconscious at work. deep down she knows something is wrong, but it's too terrible for her to face and remain sane. SPOILER: I think Beatty does face it and we see the consequences.
I really do think that there was a subconcious Mildred looking for a way out of the Millie persona, and I think that she was a metaphor for the superficiality of that society and consumer cultures in general. There was something desperate and brittle about Millie, but who would she be if she wasn't "Millie?" I think that explains the speeding compulsion and the ODs. Remember, ODs had become so common that they no longer took patients to the hospital, just "reamed" them out at home with the machine and moved on to the next OD.
I liked part two. I don't totally agree with being brainwashed from TV. I do think that TV has made us a society where nothing is shocking anymore (court TV, violence, sex). I guess that could be a form of brainwashing. I myself am huge on all kinds of things. I watch ALOT of TV, I watch all kinds of movies, I read non-stop... but I also love to be outside (I went fishing this morning). I have never met anyone where TV has influenced them in a wrong way (perhaps kids but I don't have any). I love how the book really makes me understand how desperate people are to save books. And I love how war planes fly over all the time even though everyone is supposed to be happy. I also like the reference to the Bible. You can't read it but Jesus is talked about on TV. I am looking forward to reading part three.
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