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Why are some Books considered Evil?
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message 101:
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Lydia
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Dec 28, 2009 09:38AM
Hello!
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My mum syas that i can stay on the computer for a few mins and she wil tell me to get off when she pleases
Hmmm.. At least you get to go on the computer!
yes but she says that im going to have to hit the lou before we go on our big trip
oh somewhere just out side of some city, apparently its 3 hours away... i have a three year old sister and it doesnt take much to make her go bonkers
well, your lucky because lilly is nuts!!! oh mum just said i have to hit the lou but ill be bak because i can bbring my laptop!!!
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Pheew! I am not alone!
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lolz. i take offense to the above comment! well, im just not sure wat i a..."
wait a sec! u rnt a conservative u r undecided. an independant so humph! lol! still 2!
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I think my parents would flip if i ever read that book, WOW! sounded adult, to me.lol.
it is, lol. i flipped out on myself, haha. i thought it would be a cute and interesting retelling like, idk, the MUSICAL hahha, but it was really really bad. well, i thought so, anyway. just sleazy. lol. the musical takes out like all the bad stuff, haha, so that's okay to like!
lolz, yeah. the musical is all happy and such. but the books is dark and has most everything the musical didn't. it was okay in my opinion.
I think the word "evil" is definitely overused by some folk. When I hear that word used to describe a book or a person I often think it says more about the person using it than the thing that it is describing. You could substitute the words "I feel threatened by that book/idea/culture/person because it is different to what I know or belive and I do not understand it" for the term evil. People fear the unknown - read about something, learn about it, broaden you mind and experience and then you learn that there are very few things in this universe that could be called evil.
I have read the Golden Compass, Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass by Phillip Pullman,I really enjoyed them. An excellent fantasy story which has drawn ideas from several religious beliefs including Christianity. I find it extremley interesting that some Christians would find this book threatening to their beliefs - as good definitely triumphs over the 'evil' in this tale. Pullman does allude to aspects of Christianity but I think that this would only make one examine the different facets and traditions of the religion rather than challenge the central tenets of someone's faith. I think it is extremely healthy for any individual to continually re-examine their beliefs and attitudes to all things in life, including spirituality. If we dont do this how on earth are we ever going to grow as people.
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really from what i gathered it was se*! sorry i know there is no cussing or inappropiate stuff, but hey its true, and its related to the topic.
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I really enjoyed them. An excellent fantasy story which has drawn ideas from several religious beliefs inclu..."
i totally agree with that. a lot of people say i believe this...(whatever it may be), and you may ask why. when their response is i don't know, or i have always thought that it seems to defeat the point. how can you believe something if you don't understand why you believe it.
Josie wrote: "I have read the Golden Compass, Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass by Phillip Pullman,I really enjoyed them. An excellent fantasy story which has drawn ideas from several religious beliefs inclu..."
yeah well im a Christian and i most definitely do not like those books, for one thing pullman attacks Christianity directly, first by likening his "god" in the story to the Judeo-Christian God, and then in the Amber Spyglass by having a character say that the Christian religion is "a mistake" (i dont have the actual page number with me right now, but the info is from this book that we have to read for one of my classes). I dont know if I'd call the books "evil" but they're definitely annoying to me. So yeah I guess I'd be one of the Christians out there who doesnt like the series. I dont know if I find them "threatening" because my beliefs are stronger than anything some stupid author with an agenda might say, but I dont like that they're targeted at children. At least people like Dan Brown dont try and pass their beliefs onto kids...
*steps down from my soapbox now*
*applauds* nicely said, Amelia.(you should check out me and my besties's blog: http://mmmalways.blogspot.com/ )
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(you should check out me and my besties's blog: http://mmmalways.blogspot.com/ )"
haahahah! finally the website adress!
lolz. its also on my profile. lolz. sending you that one thing now.
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Amelia*annabeth&percy*sittin in a tree* wrote: "Josie wrote: "I have read the Golden Compass, Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass by Phillip Pullman,I really enjoyed them. An excellent fantasy story which has drawn ideas from several religious..."
Pullmans books are for young adults and adults and are not targeted at children. The book is a fantasy that weaves in ideas from several of the worlds religions, not just christianity. I do not remember any direct criticisms of christianity or the promoting of an alternative god. There are parts of the book that may mirror different aspects of the religious constructs that have grown up around the basic gospel message - but that is more about how man modifys things to suit his own ends rather than challenging anyones presonal spiritual beliefs. I think if Pullman has any agenda it is to warn against religious extremism - in the last book in the series there is a priest who is attempting to kill people because of his extreme views.
I am suprised that you would call such an accomplished author as Pullman "stupid" because he writes a book about something that you feel challenges christianity in some way (it doesn't). It does however challenge bigotry, extremism and the use of religion to control people.
Pullmans books are for young adults and adults and are not targeted at children.Um, yes, they are. They're sold in the childrens section at bookstores, they're in the childrens section at libraries, and they're in school catalogs to order
I do not remember any direct criticisms of christianity or the promoting of an alternative god.
He writes: "The Authority, god, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El Adonai, the King, the Father the Almighty - those were all names he gave himself..." (The Amber Spyglass, pgs 31-32)
Also: "The Christian religion is a very powerful and convincing mistake, that's all" (The Amber Spyglass, pg 441)
- This is considered by us good'ol Christians as a "direct hit" because he specifically names the Judeo-Christian God (Yahweh, El Adonai, etc) If he was just talking about some random god, he wouldnt have gone to the trouble of writing those technical names...
religious extremism...
That's more Dan Brown's agenda, because in his books, the main antagonists are power-hungry church people, and while I find that annoying, I will concede that people have the ability to fall into sin. Yeah, you can have bad bishops and bad priests and whatever... but he doesnt actually claim to take on God. He's a little sneakier about it, by attacking the Church.
And when I said "stupid author with an agenda" I was actually talking about both Pullman and Brown. Yeah, I think Pullman is stupid, and I don't find him much of an author. He's a wuss, too, because at first he said he had a problem with Christianity specifically, then when people started calling him on it, he turned around and changed his story: "Well, it's not that I hate God, it is just because I don't believe in God, it is just that I think the people who believe in God and persecute the people who don't...are thoroughly dangerous."
Oh, well, that's a different tune than the one you were originally singing, Phil. And you know what? If you don't like Christianity, tough! Get over it! Go to counseling, or punch a pillow, or whatever, but it's so arrogant of you to write such harmful and negative things about religion, just because you personally don't like it!
I would love to know what C.S. Lewis would say to Philip Pullman if he was alive today--or JRR Tolkien, for that matter...
Amy wrote: "i thought i was following you too, does it say i am?"not when i checked.
Amelia*annabeth&percy*sittin in a tree* wrote: "follow me, rae!
(www.leaveyoureyesbehind.blogspot.com) "
okays, i'll follow with both my single and the one i have joint with my bestie
Amelia*annabeth&percy*sittin in a tree* wrote: "Pullmans books are for young adults and adults and are not targeted at children.Um, yes, they are. They're sold in the childrens section at bookstores, they're in the childrens section at librari..."
I think that the books are for teens & adults and are indeed a lot more wholesome than some teen lit.
Amelia in some earlier posts you wrote that you "could not read those books".(Pullmans) So judging a book by a couple of out of context quotes is a bit unfair. You have to remember that this is a fantasy book which draws upon religious themes so biblical names and names from other relgions appear. Remember it is a fantasy peopled by angels, spectres, witches, talking bears, harpies and people with constant animal companions etc. Have you seen the film Golden Compass - if you cant read the books then the film might make help you see that this is a fantasy story and a good one at that. You may interested to know that the main 'baddie' in the story is a scientist.
I think that Pullman was quite right when he said "I think the people who believe in God and persecute the people who don't...are thoroughly dangerous".
Two really important things for the future of humanity are Religious Tolerance and Freedom of Speech.
Religious Tolerance allows us to respect one another enough to accept that we will all have our own individual, spiritual beliefs (depending upon the culture we grew up in) and that no one has the right to say that this belief is the only valid one or that another's beliefs are evil.
I believe that the Divine loves diversity, you only have to look at the natural world to see that, and I believe that the Divine is large and loving enough to accept all world religions as they are all just different paths to the same thing.
Freedom of Speech is also so very important, when it is absent truth and growth will die. When censorship is in place all kinds of injustices can flourish unchallenged. We stop making progress as we are no longer able to express opinions and discuss important ideas that might lead to improvements. This applies to the religious world just as much as any other.
If we dont treasure religious tolerance and freedom of speech then we end up creating the ideal conditions for extremists - religous or otherwise. We end up with authors having to go into hiding in fear of their lives - such as what happened to Salman Rushdie.
Amelia you are passionate about youre beliefs, which is great, but dont let that lead you into intolerance of other beliefs or censorship. Keep an open mind and keep on reading all you can.
Okay, I really don't have the time or the energy to respond to every thing you wrote, but it doesnt surprise me that sooner or later the phrases "freedom of speech" and "religious tolerance" would creep into the discussion. they usually always do, and i personally get tired of having to respond to those really shaky responses. - First of all, one does not have to subject the mind to things that one would find morally wrong in order to understand that they are morally wrong. So no, I havent read the books. And most of the people in the 60+ college class that this series was discussed in didnt read them either. Not wholly. We know what it says--we choose not to subject ourselves to it. Second, where is Pullman's tolerance? He's so busy screaming that Christianity is evil and flawed and dangerous...he may have freedom to do alot of things, but that doesnt make it right or helpful. I could say that fat people are bad and destructive because they encourage people to neglect their health...it's a really stupid thing to say, even if I have the right to say it. But then again, attacking Christianity has been a favorite pastime all throughout history, so I guess he's no different.
And I'm not being intolerant, I'm expressing the opinion (and personally I find it a very reasonable opinion) that I think his books are destructive and don't help anyone, because they make people think negatively about religion. If that's your personal preference, fine...but don't go spouting off stuff to millions of people. And no, actually...I don't really want to see the movie, either.
I personally find it interesting and a bit amusing when Freedom of Speech and Censorship suddenly comes into the conversation... people love to hug up to those things to defend whatever sort of crap is out there. And don't call me intolerant, please. I'm from Southern California--I'm very much aware of the existence of anti-Christian thought.
And actually, true Christianity is about being God-minded as opposed to being open-minded (says quite a few of the professors I've had over the years). The Bible talks about how we need to guard ourselves against "hollow and deceptive philosophy...which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ" (Col 2:8)... If you're not a Christian, you dont really have to listen to that verse. But a Christian knows that the point isnt to allow your mind to be so open that stuff comes through and messes with your beliefs. So those last sentences arent really how I live my life.
thanks :P i try not to be so mean! I'm glad we're both in the same corner :)
Yeah, though I can understand where Josie is coming from with what she says.
This discussion line is entitled "Why are some books considered evil". My answer to that would be because sometimes people are fearful of ideas, cultures, beliefs, races, lifestyles etc, that are different frpm their own. For some reason they feel threatened by them and become defensive rather than seeing the subject of the book as something worth investigating because they just might find it interesting, be entertained, learn something or broaden their mind. Unfortunately when a fearful and defensive attitude exists, books about contentiouos subjects get branded as evil or morally wrong by people that have not even read them.Maybe it is something that develops with maturity but I feel confident enough in my personal beliefs, ethics, life philosopy to feel happy reading about other points of view. To me life is about celebrating diversity not hiding away from it.
Religious Tolerance and Freedom of Speech are pretty sound principles and there would be far less war and suffering in this world if these principles were more widely adopted. And more to the point authors would not have to worry about recieving death threats from religious extremists.
I am not going to comment on your biblical quotes, proffesor or anti-christian feeling in South carolina because it is off topic.
I would say that I am very happy for you to express your opinion (that is after all what freedom of speech is all about) however if you can have an opinion then so can I. I dont expect to told "If that's your personal preference, fine...but don't go spouting off stuff to millions of people." I have tried to treat you with respect so that we can discuss the topic, please do the same for me.
i think you misunderstood:when i said "If that's your personal preference, fine...but don't go spouting off stuff to millions of people." i was speaking as though i was talking to pullman...not you! so sorry for that!
Ah, I see. Glad it was not directed at me.
Josie wrote: "Ah, I see. Glad it was not directed at me."
Pullman to, is entitled to his opinion. However, the books are just enjoyable, fantasy fiction.
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