THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
CAMPAIGNS & BATTLES
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Books on D-Day & Overlord
Thanks guys, James certainly seems to be the historian of the moment (Oliver well even disconnect himself from the internet if there's a sniff of Megastructures) but I'm very very impressed by his current inclusion of the operational level of strategy in with the usual narrative - it's building into an interesting "new" look at things (although it would appear this one had been some five years in the making, some of the themes being first used in his documentary Normandy '44 the Battle Beyond D-Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lnxh...)Can't wait for the final part of The War In The West, and maybe a fresh look at Market Garden, or perhaps the Atlantic?
Thanks for that link to James Holland's documentary, I will have to try and watch it later today.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "happy wrote: When my brother and I visited Normandy 10 yrs ago ( It can't have been that long ago :)) we stayed in a little inn..."
Yes, I remember seeing that parachute too. What a beautiful pla..."
Knew I'd seen it somewhere:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2016280...
Not a great deal but it's a start!
Thanks Jonny That was interesting. I still wonder why they launched from much closer to the beach on Utah. Were the Allies tipped off as to the disaster at Omaha? Was there a shore battery or some obstruction on Omaha that prevented the US Navy from launching closer to shore?
Just stumbled upon this. Eisenhower interviewed by CBS on the 20th anniversary of D-Day:https://www.cbsnews.com/video/cbs-rep...
Pamela wrote: "Just stumbled upon this. Eisenhower interviewed by CBS on the 20th anniversary of D-Day:https://www.cbsnews.com/video/cbs-rep......"
Thanks for posting that link Pamela.
Review (draft) for Sand and Steel: A New History of D-Day by Peter Caddick-Adamswith about 200 passages still to quote in the buddy read *snif*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Your review is pretty spot on so far Dimitri. I'm just into the second half now and loved the first section on the preparations. I think this book will be one of the 'must reads' on D-Day.
That's a proper book buying review Dmitri. My bank manager wants a word with the pair of you...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...The Ambrose books. Books by Major Holt (but with a British spin). I also like travel guidebooks about Normandy/D-Day. Don't want to be glory-seeking, but mine, published by Skyhorse, ain't a bad read: The D-Day Visitor's Handbook. It goes beyond the history and is more of a travel guidebook.
I'm reading Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France.If there is a D-Day book to deserve the sub title "Every thing you wanted to know about D-Day, but whrere afraid to ask", this is the one!. I'm three hundred pages in and the troops haven't left England :)
An interesting factiod. According to C-A, Monty's 21st Army Group had more gunners than infantry assigned - just under 700K to 526K and even if you add the Tankers to the INF and there was STILL more Arty people than maneuver people.
happy wrote: "I'm reading Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France.If there is a D-Day book to deserve the sub title "Every think you wanted to know about D-Day, but whrer..."
She'll part of the big plan, Happy m'man...
As a follow up to the June theme read and Peter Caddick-Adams' masterful book; "Sand & Steel" I am reading James Holland's book; "Normandy '44". I liked this account from chapter four, things aren't looking too good for the German defenders:"Nor was Oberst Fredrich Freiherr von Heydte, the commander of Fallschirmjager 6, much impressed by what he had seen of other troops or by the equipment available in Normandy. It was deplorable. 'Weapons from all over the world and all periods of the twentieth century seemed to have been accumulated,' he noted, 'in order to convey the impression of a mighty force.' Within his heavy weapons companies he had German, French, Italian and Russian mortars and seven different types of light machine gun. Von der Heydte had only reached Normandy at the beginning of May, but during a subsequent exercise near Cherbourg, General Marcks had been most scathing about his corps. 'Emplacements without guns,' he had told von der Heydte, 'ammunition depots without ammunition, mine fields without mines, and a large number of men in uniform with hardly a soldier among them'."
Normandy '44: D-Day and the Epic 77-Day Battle for France by James Holland
Baron von der Heydte was an interesting man, international lawyer, paratrooper, and first cousin to Count Claus von Stauffenberg. Ironically, I am related to both families by way of my great grand father's family. I interviewed von der Heydte in 1984.
Colin wrote: "Baron von der Heydte was an interesting man, international lawyer, paratrooper, and first cousin to Count Claus von Stauffenberg. Ironically, I am related to both families by way of my great grand ..."It would be good to find a dedicated biography on the man.
Unfortunately there is not one that I am aware of, and I have thought about writing one
It would fill a gap I dare say :)
Colin wrote: "Unfortunately there is not one that I am aware of, and I have thought about writing one"There may not be a Bio on him, but it seems he has writing his own book on the Battle of Crete.
Daedalus Returned
So that might give some insight into the Man
Thanks DJ, I saw that book but couldn't find a decent price for a HB edition.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Thanks DJ, I saw that book but couldn't find a decent price for a HB edition."What? You mean 550, isn't a decent price for a Hardback book? I am sure the seller would think it was a very decent price. LOL
I did see that it is available from some Libraries so you may still be able to take a look at it.
"Normandy '44" - Reading about the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich and their actions at Oradour-sur-Glane on 10th June 1944 😢😢😢https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour...
Normandy '44: D-Day and the Epic 77-Day Battle for France by James Holland
I liked this bit of writing about the American advance into Cherbourg from Ernie Pyle in the book; "Normandy '44" by James Holland:"They all seemed hesitant and cautious, more like the hunted than the hunters as far as Pyle could tell. 'They weren't warriors,' he wrote. 'They were American boys who by mere chance of fate had wound up with guns in their hands, sneaking up a death-laden street in a strange and shattered city in a far-away country in driving rain. They were afraid, but it was beyond their power to quit.' As usual, Pyle was unerringly observant and spot on."
From the Postscript of the book; "Normandy '44" by James Holland:"The logistics were mind-bogglingly complicated and quite superbly executed. By 4 September, for example, the Mulberry B had delivered 39,743 vehicles, 220,231 personnel and, in total, 517,844 tons of supplies. Then there were the beaches, which on average, collectively, continued to deliver some 16,000 tons of supplies per day. Enough fuel was provided to keep over 100,000 Allied vehicles on the road. On average a tank used 8,000 gallons of fuel a week and an entire armoured division some 60,000 per day."
Normandy '44: D-Day and the Epic 77-Day Battle for France by James Holland
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "From the Postscript of the book; "Normandy '44" by James Holland:"The logistics were mind-bogglingly complicated and quite superbly executed. By 4 September, for example, the Mulberry B had deliv..."
The most impressive aspect of the operation.
Indeed, if the Germans were informed of these mind boggling stats, I'd say they would have surrendered right then, but most likely they just would not have believed them.
I think you're attributing the German forces a great deal more latitude of decision than they actually enjoyed...
I have been trying to track this discussion, mostly you guys are way deeper than Iin case I missed it before, any opinions on:
D DAY Through German Eyes - The Hidden Story of June 6th 1944
?
ETA I just paged back and found a few comments, anyone care to add?
Jonny wrote: "I think you're attributing the German forces a great deal more latitude of decision than they actually enjoyed..."If ever there was a case of do or die it was Hitler's Germany on the defensive. That said the retreat would have been a lot bloodier on the allies if the "German forces [had] a great deal more latitude of decision"
If you might be interested in the naval portion of the D-day invasion, Chapter 9 of the book, The Longest Campaign, covers this subject in great detail. Although often overlooked compared the ground fighting, the naval contribution to Operation Overlord was absolutely essential and colossal in its execution. This involved thousands of vessels and encompassed naval surface combat, maritime aerial interdiction, mine warfare, anti-submarine (U-boat) operations and defense against new German small battle unit wonder weapons. Check it out if you might be interested.
Josh wrote: "What book would you recommend for reading about D-Day and Overlord?"It's been noted earlier in this discussion thread, but I think this just went to the top of the list:
The Dead and Those About to Die: D-Day: The Big Red One at Omaha BeachJohn C. McManus (NAL Caliber, 2014, 367 pp)
When Hilary Mantel wrote Wolf Hall, a critic asked, “Do we really need another book about Henry the VIII?” My answer was, “Yes, Mantel’s book.” I can say the same for John C. McManus’s book about D-Day. Again, some might ask, haven’t we seen enough movies, television specials, and documentaries and read enough books about that day, now seventy-five years ago? My answer? No. Not when there is such an outstanding telling of the events as in The Dead and Those About to Die.
The author acknowledges the contribution Steven Spielberg’s film Saving Private Ryan did for bringing the horrific saga of what transpired at the water’s edge on Normandy into everyone’s consciousness. But then, in the chapter H-Hour, McManus makes us look at the scene again. This time not through the eyes of the soldiers of the 29th Infantry Division, but the 1st—the Big Red One. Reading that chapter is as if you were on the beach of Saving Private Ryan, but hitting the pause button every few seconds and zooming in to crouch beside Joe Zukowski, Frank DeBellis, and Howard Pearre, among so many others, crawl, try to walk laden with far too much equipment, likely bleeding from machine-gun fire that pierced knees and arms and chests, and ultimately fall. Mentally exhausted though you might be when you reach the end of H-Hour and turn to the chapter on the survivors, although you wonder how anyone survived, you will marvel at the unimaginable courage of many of the soldiers, sailors, and marines in Normandy on June 6, 1944.
McManus says that D-Day is “much better known than understood.” He is right and goes on to explain the what, why, and how. He pounds home the tendency of Americans with their array of warships, bombers, fighters, their amphibious tanks, and their Higgins boats to overestimate the effectiveness of that power and technology. That bias led to a dangerous underestimation of the firepower the Germans salvaged and to rain down on the beach. It led to the underestimation of the German tactics of mining the beach obstacles and peppering the draws leading from the beach with “Bouncing Betties” and Schu mines.
Were it not for the infinite courageous actions across Omaha, many more men would have been lost. One, McManus cites forms the title of the book, Col. George Taylor’s inspirational admonition, “Two kinds of people are staying on this beach: the dead and those about to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here.” His words allowed many of the 1st Infantry Division to overcome their fear, exhaustion, and injuries to persevere, gather up their arms and move forward. There were heroes at all ranks that day, but through it all, McManus attributes the 1st Infantry’s success to training and leadership but also to the unit’s culture of “personal accountability at the basic human level. . . . the soldiers of the Big Red One were willing to sacrifice themselves and risk death, not just for their cause, not just for the pride of their unit, but in the end, for one another.”
In one of the most profound statements the author uses to help explain the significance of D-Day, he quotes the war correspondent, Don Whitehead, who said, “It was as though man for centuries had lived, begotten offspring and labored toward this moment which would shape the world’s history for all time to come.”
Sand and Steel is the best D-Day book I have read so far. Neptune would be a close second but mostly deals with the Navy side of things.
Rona wrote: "Josh wrote: "What book would you recommend for reading about D-Day and Overlord?"It's been noted earlier in this discussion thread, but I think this just went to the top of the list:
[bookcover..."
I agree with you completely--this book is excellent!
Steve wrote: "Sand and Steel is the best D-Day book I have read so far. Neptune would be a close second but mostly deals with the Navy side of things."I agree with you there Steve, two excellent books on D-Day!
Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-Adams
Neptune: The Allied Invasion of Europe and the D-Day Landings by Craig L. Symonds
Not reading a book but I am watching The Longest Day, the movie, in honor of today being the the 77th anniversary of D-Day. May we never forget the sacrifices made and the lives lost of that most eventful day!
Doreen wrote: "Not reading a book but I am watching The Longest Day, the movie, in honor of today being the the 77th anniversary of D-Day. May we never forget the sacrifices made and the lives lost of that most e..."This is the first year I recall without many prominent news stories or coverage of D-Day. Is it fading into historical memory? Maybe I just happened to miss it? It did fall on a Sunday.
Nobody can get over to commemorate, so it looks like it's slipped the net. Even the unveiling of the new memorial had to be done on a screen...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57373932
My grandfather was in the Navy in the Pacific when D-Day hit and my dad just graduated high school and was promptly drafted into the Army. After searching searching through everything he saved I found out he was "on loan" to Third Army under Patton. Never understood why but then it hit me. My dad had language skills that I'm quite certain Patton would have wanted. I have his Third Army shoulder patch. Think that would make a great tattoo as a memorial to my dad. I already have his Army pic on my left arm.
Manray9 wrote: "Is it fading into historical memory?"It is hard to imagine, but it seems to me that history in general is very much a niche subject to the general populace at large of just about every nation, community etc so there could be less of a remembrance into the future. I am sure I once read that Waterloo Day was extensively celebrated in Britain.
I tend to agree 4ZZZ, and it seems to becoming more common that people seem to know less and less about history or even care about the subject. One another matter, the British love to celebrate any victory over the French :)
fourtriplezed wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is it fading into historical memory?"It is hard to imagine, but it seems to me that history in general is very much a niche subject to the general populace at large of just about ..."
I was a kid in the fifties, so the war was still fresh in all minds. A topic among neighborhood boys was "What did your dad do in the war?" Movies and TV shows about the war were common. This has all faded. Time marches on.
Both of my grandfathers served in WW2. I became fascinated by the war and Holocaust history at an early age. My kids are 13, 11, and 8. I have been trying to get them all three interest in this history, but have only have mild success thus far.
Doreen wrote: "Not reading a book but I am watching The Longest Day, the movie, in honor of today being the the 77th anniversary of D-Day. May we never forget the sacrifices made and the lives lost of that most e..."My Dad was in process of driving a jeep he had just failed to repair off a causeway in Noumea, New Caledonia on that date. He heard the big news much later.
Manray9 wrote: "fourtriplezed wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is it fading into historical memory?"It is hard to imagine, but it seems to me that history in general is very much a niche subject to the general populace a..."
Manray I do get that time marches on but for me it's a wee bit harder. As I stated my grandfather was in the Navy and my dad was in the Army with Patton's Third Army. But there's also something else about WWII that just doesn't let me forget and will be with me until I take my last breath. One of my uncles and cousins on my mom's side where tortured and murdered in Auschwitz because they were Polish and wouldn't help the Nazis. Not something I share with very many people. So for me everything about WWII is quite personal. I am a very proud WWII daughter and grand-daughter. I totally respect your opinion and hope you can at least try to understand mine. I think you will. You're a great friend in this group and I wish you nothing but the best.
Doreen wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "fourtriplezed wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is it fading into historical memory?"It is hard to imagine, but it seems to me that history in general is very much a niche subject to the ge..."
I think you misinterpreted my comment.
Manray9 wrote: "Doreen wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "fourtriplezed wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is it fading into historical memory?"It is hard to imagine, but it seems to me that history in general is very much a niche su..."
Okay we'll leave it at that.
I think there may have been a misunderstanding Doreen. MR9 was in no way being critical of the remembrance of those who served.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think there may have been a misunderstanding Doreen. MR9 was in no way being critical of the remembrance of those who served."I understand that. I've moved on. Nothing bad to say about MR9 or anyone in the group. Can we just move on?
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)
Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)
Sand & Steel: A New History of D-Day (other topics)
Sand & Steel: A New History of D-Day (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Russell Miller (other topics)Russell Miller (other topics)
Paul Carell (other topics)
Craig L. Symonds (other topics)
Peter Caddick-Adams (other topics)
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https://www.goodreads.com/revi..."
Super review Jonny.