THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Books on D-Day & Overlord
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "More details from the book on D-Day by Giles Milton. Pretty horrific when a ship gets hit like in the case of USS Corry off the invasion beaches of Normandy:"Three direct hits had punctured a hol..."
That would have been unpleasant.
I found this story from Giles Milton's book; "D-Day: The Soldiers Story" very touching. It's from Omaha Beach, in regards to one of the landing craft skippers:"Jimmy Green was horrified when he learned that every lad from his landing craft had been killed. It would haunt him for the rest of his life. 'I was in some way responsible for putting them there,' he said many years later. 'I can still see those fresh-faced boys getting out of the boat'."
Jimmy Green and D-Day:
http://alexkershawauthor.com/?p=266
What a great name for a navy position: Senior Naval Officer Transport and known to all of us, unfortunately, as SNOT.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Jimmy Green and D-Day:..."He has some strong words for Ambrose, SLA Marshall and Spielberg on historical accuracy. Easy to understand his disgust with them.
Mike wrote: "Ambrose."Had no idea? I'm shocked I tell you Mike, shocked!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this story from Giles Milton's book; "D-Day: The Soldiers Story" very touching. It's from Omaha Beach, in regards to one of the landing craft skippers:"Jimmy Green was horrified when he l..."
Thanks for sharing the link, AR. It was interesting to see his critical thoughts on later interpretations of Omaha beach, as in this quote,
"‘Saving Private Ryan’ depicted C Company of 2nd Ranger Infantry Battalion landing on the Dog Green sector of Omaha Beach. Their two British LCA landing craft and the six LCAs carrying A Company of 116th Infantry Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division of the Army of the United States of America came under my command at that exact point and time. I was British then, as were all of the hundreds of other British sailors landing American troops on the morning of D-Day. Denying the presence of the Royal Navy on Omaha Beach or dishonoring them was a gross injustice.
On a more serious note, Omaha deserves a place in American history."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that Omaha beach to Americans is analogous to the first day of the Somme to the British, even if the former is on a smaller scale than the latter. At the Somme, there was a large French presence, but their experience is understandably overshadowed by the British experience. In the same way, Omaha beach is one of those moments in history that Americans value and remember, without denying the British and allied presence.
Elliot, that may be the perfect question to put to Alex Kershaw during the Q&A with him on May 17th in regards to his new book on Normandy:https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Elliot wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this story from Giles Milton's book; "D-Day: The Soldiers Story" very touching. It's from Omaha Beach, in regards to one of the landing craft skippers:"Jimmy Green w..."
Elliot: I think there's a big difference between the First Day on the Somme and Omaha Beach. The Somme was an abysmal failure that has come down through history as the event that undermined confidence in British generalship, scarred a generation and spurred the widespread pacifism of the twenties and thirties. While the performance of (mostly) British troops on the Somme was the epitome of gallantry and heroism, it was in vain. Omaha Beach, admittedly on a much smaller scale, also revealed great heroism, but it was a military success that paved the way for victory.
Manray, it certainly is true that the two events had dramatically different results. I admit I wasn't thinking quite so broadly. Instead, I was focusing more on the bare importance that each conflict had to Americans and Brits, to the exclusion of their allies that were also present. As an American myself, and having read only very little about the Somme, I am clearly lacking in knowledge on the importance it holds for Britain.
We do the same thing in regards to Gallipoli, some Australians tend to forget the sacrifices made by other allied forces, the British, French and Indian armies. However we hate it when our role in North Africa and the Pacific are overlooked by our allies. National pride can sometimes overlook the truth sometimes eh!
Just read about the actions of Stanley Elton Hollis in my book on D-Day. He had the distinction of receiving the only Victoria Cross awarded on D-Day. Stanley Elton Hollis:
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2019/0...
http://www.vconline.org.uk/stanley-e-...
Great courage and tenacity AR, thanks for the links.
Things were pretty terrible on the British beaches landing along the Normandy coast:"There was one sight that would remain with every commando that morning. The shoreline told a sorry tale of the first wave to land, the East Yorkshire Regiment. It had been butchered. Even Lovat took a momentary knock. 'The rising tide slopped round bodies with tin hats that bobbed grotesquely in the waves.'
So much blood was in the water that it formed a viscous slick on men's boots. Hundreds of corpses floated in the shallows, 'bodies stacked like cordwood.' Some had been shredded, others picked off by snipers, yet more had been hit by flying shrapnel and were engaged in a forlorn struggle to haul themselves up the beach, dragging their entrails behind them. Cliff Morris was still reeling from acute seasickness when he jumped ashore. The sight that greeted him turned his stomach to watery soup. 'Bodies lay sprawled all over the beach, some with legs, arms and heads missing, the blood clotting the sand.' The sound was even worse, like the amplified wail of an animal in pain. 'The moans and screams of those in agony blended with the shriek of bullets and whining of shells'."
D-Day: The Soldiers' Story by Giles Milton
The horror of Omaha Beach, from the book; "D-Day: The Soldiers Story":"One of their number, Victor Fast, lost his helmet in the process. 'I crawled around to find a helmet from a dead buddy, only to find it half full of head.' Somewhat queasily, he scouted around for another."
That had to be tough to go through for the troops heading to battle. At least for me, I have had an incorrect view of the British (and Canadian?) landings, unaware of any strong resistence or casualties. In the films available, it always looks like a barely opposed landing. Certainly the above makes it clear that wasn't true.
I'm the same as you Mike. I suppose in comparison to Omaha the casualties were light but for those who were actually there it would not have seemed so.
After the Allies bombed of Caen on D-Day the citizens took steps to mark out the civilian hospital with a large red cross but finding the material to do so was problematic:"In the end, he came up with a simpler solution. 'My sister decided to take four of the big sheets that had been used in the operating theatre and were already smeared with blood. We dipped them into pails of blood that stood there' - the result of countless amputations - 'and went to spread them in the hospital garden'."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "After the Allies bombed of Caen on D-Day the citizens took steps to mark out the civilian hospital with a large red cross but finding the material to do so was problematic:"In the end, he came up..."
Gruesome, but effective. Thanks for sharing that anecdote, AR.
Found this book a short and interesting perspective on D-DayD-Day Through French Eyes: Normandy 1944
I think I'm reading the same one as AR - I hate it when publishers publish the same book with 2 different titles!
I'm about 100 pages in and it is a fascinating read. Very good first person accounts from the privates on up and all three sides (German, Allied and French Civilian)
The Airborne troops are landing.
happy wrote: "I think I'm reading the same one as AR - I hate it when publishers publish the same book with 2 different titles
Ok, so my willpower is officially now nil. Made a start on Mr Holland's latest.... may well contain a few spoilers for the final volume of The War In The West! Mr Holland's taking a long view of things. It was particularly nice that the third chapter is dedicated to. "Understanding Montgomery and the Master Plan" - not so much defence as explanation.
Normandy ‘44: D-Day and the Battle for France
Sounds promising Jonny, I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive.
Along with James Holland's book on D-Day I am also waiting for copies of Alex Kershaw's book on the subject along with Peter Caddick-Adams's book; "Sand and Steel".
Sand and Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-AdamsI suppose which ever book gets here first will be my book for the June theme read :)
Hopefully you'll end up with a full mailbox soon Rick!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this story from Giles Milton's book; "D-Day: The Soldiers Story" very touching. It's from Omaha Beach, in regards to one of the landing craft skippers:"Jimmy Green was horrified when he l..."
"With so much of the US Navy in the Pacific, the naval part of the invasion was predominantly in the hands of the British. The US contribution was not insubstantial– 200 warships and 865 landing craft– but of the 1,213 warships in total, 892 were Royal Navy and of the 4,126 landing craft of various types, 3,216 were British and manned by British crews. It was mostly British, not American, vessels and crews now leading the assault forces at Omaha."
Normandy ‘44: D-Day and the Battle for France
happy wrote: When my brother and I visited Normandy 10 yrs ago ( It can't have been that long ago :)) we stayed in a little inn..."
Yes, I remember seeing that parachute too. What a beautiful place Ste Mar Egliese.
I am listening to Alex Kershaw's new book. I already knew that on Omaha Beach that most of the Sherman's with their flotation devices were swamped prior to making it to shore. I believe he said that 29 were launched and only 2 made it to shore. But what I didn't realize is that they were launched from 2 miles out. As a comparison, at Utah beach, only 4 Sherman's were lost. The bulk of them made it to shore (I believe he said that 28 made it). I believe Kershaw said that the difference was that the Sherman's on Utah were launched at about 1000 feet.
If this is true, who's idea was it to launch tanks from nearly 2 miles out on Omaha Beach?
The main difference in the survival chances of the DD's seems to have been the fact that the tanks on the other beaches were running with the tide and swells - at Omaha they were running slightly across them, compounded by the tanks running slightly off course and having to correct course, meaning the waves broke over the floatation screens and sank the tanks. I'm not sure about the rates the tanks shipped water, but it seems to have been more an issue of orientation than of distance. There was a good archeological documentary on this a few years ago, I'll have to see if I can find it and post a link.
Thanks Jonny. I guess it doesn't matter after all these years because we won anyway but I would like to know that there was another reason rather than gross incompetence or cowardice for this happening. Too many lives were lost on that beach. BTW - I've been on Omaha beach and I wonder if the Sherman's would have been able to easily climb that bluff? No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
- Helmuth van Moltke.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "Thanks Jonny. I guess it doesn't matter after all these years because we won anyway but I would like to know that there was another reason rather than gross incompetence or cowardice for this happe..."No problem at all. I'd think the waterproof nature of the screens meant the inside of the screen could fill above the actual sea level - not good.
As far as I know, the only Allied tank with any decent climbing ability was the Churchill, so the Sherman's might have been limited to the beach and the draws - but a bit of direct fire support would probably have made a bit of a difference.
Jonny wrote: "There was a good archeological documentary on this a few years ago, I'll have to see if I can find it and post a link. "Damn. Unable to find anything other than a short Youtube but did find this.
https://www.academia.edu/7438051/The_...
Still hunting... but in the meantime, I've discovered that we're still digging up some amazing stories and remembering heroes of the campaign...https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...
and finding that the new James Holland is everything I'd hoped - I'm avoiding posting spoilers as I know alot of you have it queued, although as I'm reading on Kindle my highlights are available. His appraisal of the actions in and around Villers-Bocage are quite amazing.
That's a great story about Private Robert 'Bobby' Johns, thanks for posting the link to the news story Jonny. It sounds like I have a lot to look forward when James Holland's book lands on my front step!
I think you might just enjoy it Rick...I've just wrapped it up, and was mightily impressed- possibly the book of the year. Semi - literate ramblings, as usual, here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
with spoilers... a bit.
I just started Alex Kershaw's new look at D-Day
It came into the library a lot quicker than I imagined :)
Jonny wrote: "I think you might just enjoy it Rick...I've just wrapped it up, and was mightily impressed- possibly the book of the year. Semi - literate ramblings, as usual, here: https://www.goodreads.com/revi..."
Nice review, looking forward to reading this one myself!
Jonny wrote: "I think you might just enjoy it Rick...I've just wrapped it up, and was mightily impressed- possibly the book of the year. Semi - literate ramblings, as usual, here: https://www.goodreads.com/revi..."
Great review Jonny, I may have to get stuck into my copy as soon as it arrives :)
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)
Villers-Bocage Through the Lens (other topics)
Sand & Steel: A New History of D-Day (other topics)
Sand & Steel: A New History of D-Day (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Russell Miller (other topics)Russell Miller (other topics)
Paul Carell (other topics)
Craig L. Symonds (other topics)
Peter Caddick-Adams (other topics)
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"Three direct hits had punctured a hole in the ship's boiler room and seawater as now gushing in. Benny Glisson had smashed his leg in the explosion and had a deep gash on his head. 'Everything was literally a mass of wreckage, debris and twisted steel.' He looked round to see 'a hole there big enough to drive a truck through.'
One of his comrades had 95 per cent burns - so bad, indeed, that when medics later gave him a transfusion, 'the only place to stick a needle was the inner side of the big toe.' Another lad had 'a gaping wound about eight inches long just above his knee' while three more 'were covered with oil and so badly burned that they were unrecognizable'. One young crew member had been trapped against a bulkhead and 'live steam was spewing at him from a broken pipe'. He was only saved when the cold-water tank above him burst."
USS Corry:
https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/mate...