11/09-12/09: The Hobbit / The Doctrine of Conditional Joy

[Maria]

Another interesting aspect of the novel, which I found while cruising round the Net – yet am having a little trouble validating – is Chesterton’s ‘Doctrine of Conditional Joy’, which in layman’s terms says ‘you can have this, IF you do that.’ Chesterton argued that this is essentially how the world works. For example, many religions tell their followers that they will enter into Heaven/Paradise IF they devote themselves to a good life and worship of their deity. Or, in politics, politicians tell us ‘we will do this IF you vote for us’.

In The Hobbit, I found an early example of this: Gandalf (the ultimate politician LOL) tells Bilbo ‘…In fact I will go so far as to send you on this adventure. Very amusing for me , very good for you – and profitable too, very likely, IF you ever get over it’ (p.17) but I’m not wholly convinced. However, I can see that there could be some links – for example, Bilbo will be rewarded IF he goes on the adventure; Bilbo will get the ring IF he can out riddle Gollum; Beorn will assist the group IF they stay inside his house; the group will survive Mirkwood IF they stay on the path, and so on.

Some thoughts?

[[deleted user]]

I had wondered on this Doctrine of Conditional Joy so have been doing some research.

Expanding on what you have mentioned i found "The fairy tale utterance always is, 'You may live in a palace of gold if you do not say the word cow'; or 'You may live happily with the King's daughter if you do not show her an onion.' The vision always hangs on a veto. All the dizzy and colossal things conceded depend upon one small thing withheld. All the wild and whirling things that are let loose depend on one thing that is forbidden."

Chesteron also stated "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."

Interesting topic.

[Chris]

Just based on what I'm seeing here, and I'll note that I haven't done any research beyond this, I'm seeing what amounts to basic cause-and-effect.

I do believe that much of the world does indeed depend upon cause-and-effect. You do one thing, something results.

The examples above of religion and politics imply a give and take. A reward offered if the person makes a conscious choice or sacrifice. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

The example with Gandalf is more a cause-effect to me. If you survive. Well, that's not usually going to be a sacrifice, or a give-take. Of course Bilbo will try to survive. He isn't being bribed into survival. There is no scratching Gandalf's back here.

So I guess my question is, does Chesterton differentiate between conscious choice and simple cause-effect? Or is he grouping it all together?

[Amelia]

It does look like a cause and effect model, but it looks like the conditions of the reward or the effect has been predicted or maybe "prestated" before the action has taken place. Perhaps by giving a potential effect, there is more motivation to make a choice so that the cause and effect will actually happen instead of becoming a hypethetical situation. I think it's also a matter of taking action, believing in that "joy" at the end of a journey. I don't think Gandalf really expected to gain much from this adventure, but he knew the Bilbo would, so he gave him that little push, and let him see the possibilities this adventure would open up to him.

I haven't done any research on this at all, so these are just my ideas.

[Barbm1020]

Cause and effect is true in the real world, I think, and it is also very complex. No effect has a single cause, and no cause has a single effect. the physicists say "If you change one thing, you change everything." Same with family or work-group dynamics, and in ecologies and all systems. Bilbo had a mission to change something. Gandalf was there to help. In Tolkien's view, I think the mission would be central. He didn't write just to make money; his books are his message to the literate world. You know, he was a very pious Anglican and believed that everyone has a God-given destiny. So God figures in as the most major cause.

[Maria]

JJ wrote: "I had wondered on this Doctrine of Conditional Joy so have been doing some research.

Expanding on what you have mentioned i found "The fairy tale utterance always is, 'You may live in a palace ..."

Your final comment is very interesting, JJ. I've just found this quote from Tolkien speaking about his childhood passion for stories (quoted in Kearney's 'On Stories' p.7):

"Fantasy, the making or glimpsing of Other-worlds, was the heart of the desire of Faerie. I desired dragons with a profound desire. Of course, I in my timid body did not wish to have them in the neighbourhood, intruding into my relatively safe world, in which it was, for instance, possible to read stories in peace of mind, free from fear"

Perhaps even as a child, Tolkien recognised the value of fantasy and fiction in general, which allows us to explore alternative realms and realities,and the uneasy extremes (whether of love, hate, vice or virtue) with the knowledge that we can always close the book. More importantly, as you note of Chesterton, ficiton promotes the notion that, as there is hope and justice in the fictional world, so to is there hope and justice to be had in our world.