11/09-12/09: The Hobbit/ A couple of quick questions

[Maria]

Does anyone know why there are thirteen dwarfs?

It seems an odd number - so many characters to bring to life and not all of them playing a significant role in the story. I thought, given Tolkien's Catholic leanings, it might match up with the twelve apostles plus Thorin as the (falliable) Christ figure but then there's Bilbo and Gandalf, making fifteen...

My other question is about the 'old thrush' who listens in on Bilbo's musings and conversations with the dwarfs, only to fly to Bard and provide the information that allows the killing blow to be delivered to Smaug... does anyone eles think this crafty old bird maybe a shape-shifting Gandalf?

[[deleted user]]

Funny you mention numbers as Bilbo does said he was chosen for the lucky number.
"I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number."
"Lovely titles!" sneered the dragon. "But lucky numbers don't always come off."

Then the dragon later says 14 is really what makes Bilbo the Mr Lucky Number.

Thirteen was unlucky so the dwarves needed another to make the Party lucky.

[Jim]

On the thrush, don't we find out in the next book that Gandalf was off helping out a wizard, Radagast, who was really good with animals? I'm not sure that shape shifting was one of the wizard's powers, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility that Gandalf gave Radagast a hand & vice versa.

On the numbers, isn't that the reason Gandalf gives Thorin after Bilbo feints in the very beginning when he bamboozles him into the adventure? Something about Thorin asking him to find a 14th member for the adventure or they could have all the bad luck they wanted or go back to digging coal, I think.

[Cecile]

Thirteen to dinner is unlucky for some people. I remember something an English teacher told us: at a hotel in England, they put a fake black cat at the table when there are thirteen guests, so as to avoid the unlucky number (here's the story).
If it's important to have a fourteenth "guest" in a great hotel, then you can understand it's imperative to have a fourteenth member for a dangerous treasure hunt.

As for the thrush, the dwarves remember that they are an ancient race and were used by men for carrying messages. So the bird's only doing what he was trained for.

[[deleted user]]

Cecile thats a interesting story about the cat, Kaspar. Winston Churchill even insisted on having the cat present at every meeting.

Also of note in that article it mentions:

One derives from Norse mythology, in which twelve Gods sat down to a banquet in Valhalla. The evil spirit Loki gatecrashed the party as thirteenth member of the party and killed the Gods' favourite, Balder. Thirteen also has significance to Christians, as there were thirteen people at the Last Supper, and the traitor Judas Iscariot was the thirteenth and last to arrive.

I suspect Tolkien knew well of this story of Kaspar since he was born in South Africa and the Savoy Hotel started having Kaspar in 1927.

[Jim]

And Christian myth has 13 at the last supper, too. I've heard a lot of people think that the LOTR is a Christian-like myth, so it makes sense.

[Fox]

I think the Thrush was a bit too convenient for serendipity's sake. Therefore my mind insists that it was either Gandalf or one of the other wizards. Had to have been! Since it's my story (as we all own a story as we read it), I have decided that that is just what it is. Wizardry for sure.

[Maria]

I agree Viktoria. I thought the Thrush was too convenient as well and therefore had to be an agent for some greater power. Gandalf seems like the most obvious choice given he has access to 'other' information and appears at times when Bilbo and the Dwarfs need him in the first section of the book. Also taking into account how well the book is written, it would seem odd for Tolkien to resort to convenience to achieve a plot effect - killing off the dragon so Bilbo and the Dwarfs can conclude their adventure.