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Population dons Lincoln green and heads for Sherwood...
I believe it Geoff. We went through a lot of these scheme in detail when we recently helped our daughter to buy a home. The daftest one for us was as we are on pensions which are secure and guaranteed for life as opposed to salary which can be terminated at any time. Yes I know life isn't guaranteed but with a mortgage you used to have to life assurance to cover death before the mortgage term finishes.
We couldn't get the mortgage and then rent them the property. As it happened they got their mortgage themselves which is the better option.
Jim wrote: "The only case I can think of where a government successfully curbed the bureaucracy was when in the late Roman Empire the barbarians cut out the bureaucracy and became the army and collected the money direct from the tax payer in person"We've all lived through at least two periods of curbs to bureaucracy. First there was Margaret Thatcher who was mostly driven by a monetarist ideology of a small state and large private sector. Then there was George Osborne who had some of Thatcher's ideology but was also faced with the rising costs of the state caused by an ageing population.
In the last few years, both central and local Government have seen massive cuts in financial support which in turn has led to huge reductions in bureaucracy. The UK civil service is now at its smallest since the second world war. In the last five years the civil service has fallen from 480,000 people to 406,000:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2...
We can talk about why this was done. We can argue about whether it was the right thing to do or was too much too fast. But we certainly can't say that the costs of Government haven't gone down since the time of the Romans. That would almost be worthy of a Monty Python sketch.
The problem is, removing civil servants and putting them in executive agencies where they enjoy the same terms and conditions might notionally reduce their numbers but doesn't reduce the burden on the tax payer.Although 'terms and conditions' is vague, given that when Defra was formed it was discovered staff moved from the Department of the Environment were doing the same job as staff who'd come from MAFF but the latter were paid less because they did things at lower grades etc
But the biggest problem with the executive agencies is their ability to recover their costs from the industries they 'police' which means there is little encouragement to efficiency
These figures do include the arm's length executive agencies. There is no question about it - the civil service (central departments and agencies) has been getting smaller (and cheaper). It hasn't been a constant reduction - the Blair/ Brown years increased the size of the civil service and we are now seeing more staff increases as a result of the EU referendum.
The EU referendum gives us two types of additional civil service costs. There is the temporary cost of implementing Brexit (if we do indeed Brexit), which could take more than a decade. Then there will be the permanent cost of increasing the civil service to do some of the things currently done by the EU civil servants.
In an ideal world, the Leave campaign would be able to tell us how much this would cost, both as the temporary cost of leaving and as a permanent cost of replacing the EU. If they didn't know, how could they make claims that leaving the EU would save us money which could be spent on the NHS instead?
That's what the Government is having to do right now ... and it is incidentally why they are in no rush to sign article 50.
Some executive agencies can recover costs - eg the DVLA. The ability to raise income isn't affected by whether it is an executive agency or a central government department.
how the hell can the leave campaign tell anybody how much it will cost when the head of the remain campaign banned the civil service from working out the figures?
as for executive agencies 'recovering costs' this process is great if you want to destroy an industry.So we had slaughterhouses with more inspectors on the line than staff
Jim wrote: "how the hell can the leave campaign tell anybody how much it will cost when the head of the remain campaign banned the civil service from working out the figures?"You've got half a point. I have said all along that there was a basic unfairness in the system that the Remain camp had access to the civil service and the Leave camp didn't. We know why that happened - the civil service exists to support the Government and the Government's position was to remain. But it never sat very comfortably for me. If we are going to take a decision as momentous as leaving the EU, the public have a right to be properly informed. Both sides should have had equal access to the same resources.
But the Remain campaign having access to the civil service was a double-edged sword for them. It meant that they were better informed, but it also stopped them from being dishonest. The civil service allows Ministers to put the best spin on a truth, but it does not allow Ministers to lie. It's what we call being economical with the truth.
And let's be brutally frank here. We both know that it would not have made much difference if the Leave campaign did have access to the same information. They were able to read - as we all were - the reports from the Treasury, the Cabinet Office, the IMF, Bank of England et al. All of these talked about the likely costs of a Brexit decision.
But what did the Leave campaign do? They ignored every report that they didn't like - which was virtually all of them. They made up their own figures like the £350 million a week. They tried to silence every expert. Apparently, we don't believe in experts any more.
At best, the Leave campaign truly didn't know about the costs of Brexit and their wild claims were genuinely what they believed. At worst, they knew full well that they were lying but said it anyway in order to win at all costs.
That is why Iain Duncan Smith is on the warpath today about an early article 50:
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/iain-...
Remarkably, he doesn't want the Government to do any work on trade deals. He doesn't want them to prepare or do more research. He wants us to rush headlong into the worst kind of Brexit purely for ideological reasons. He wants to commit us to a bad decision before the full truth has come out.
Jim wrote: "as for executive agencies 'recovering costs' this process is great if you want to destroy an industry.So we had slaughterhouses with more inspectors on the line than staff"
So how do you propose to pay for the inspectors, then? Or do you want to go to a world with no inspection, no food hygiene standards, no health & safety?
When I buy beef from the butchers I want to know that it isn't going to give me BSE and that in a previous life it didn't win the 2.45 at Newmarket.
Industries need regulation. That regulation needs to be paid for. And it will be exactly the same whether we are in the EU or out of it.
Will wrote: "Jim wrote: "At best, the Leave campaign truly didn't know about the costs of Brexit and their wild claims were genuinely what they believed. At worst, they knew full well that they were lying but said it anyway in order to win at all costs."And every time you bang on and on and on about something that YOU consider a lie, without listing the numerous lies of the Remain campaign that told us that the UK was doomed if we left the EU, I'm going to ask you to
answer the question I keep asking you and you refuse to answer
Will wrote: "So how do you propose to pay for the inspectors, then? Or do you want to go to a world with no inspection, no food hygiene standards, no health & safety?When I buy beef from the butchers I want to know that it isn't going to give me BSE and that in a previous life it didn't win the 2.45 at Newmarket.
Industries need regulation. That regulation needs to be paid for. And it will be exactly the same whether we are in the EU or out of it. ..."
If you have a cutting plant as a separate entity or attached to a slaughter house, then it comes under the full inspection regime and the company pays for the on-site inspection and permnent on-site inspectors.
If you have a cutting plant that is attached to a supermarket, or even owned by a supermarket, it's retail and inspected free by the local authority environmental health
Ironically BSE was not a slaughter house problem but a government regulation problem. They changed the rendering system, reducing the heat involved, changing the processes, as a human Health and Safety issue.
As for horse in your burger, when carcass beef goes into the abattoir at £2 a kilo and mince comes out at £1 a kilo, what does anybody think is in it?
Note this wasn't a UK abattoir inspection problem, it was a UK supermarket problem. Before they ended up pulling stuff from the shelves, when the storm started I wandered into Tesco and looked at their burgers. They were less than half the price of the burgers our butcher makes and sells himself. When they pulled the horse burgers the price of Tesco Burger went up to exactly the same price as those our butcher sells, because now they had the same ingredients. (Beef)
But the breakdown came in two places, three if you include criminality amongst supermarket buyers who must have realised they were buying something dodgy.
Firstly whilst farmers and abattoirs are charged for inspection, importers aren't because they're large retail chains with clout who give money to support political parties amongst other things. So pretty well any old rubbish can come through ports or airports (hence bushmeat)
Secondly supermarkets are not properly inspected because local authorities haven't the funds to do it. And of course no politician dare bring in a regulation that would make tesco pay for inspection like farmers and slaughterhouses have to.
What question? I don't read all your posts. Life is much too short. Which one do you want an answer to?And while we are at it, which "lies" of the Remain campaign do you want to talk about? That the economy would suffer if we left the EU? That the EU wouldn't be falling over themselves to offer us a favourable deal? That we wouldn't have £350 million a week to invest in the NHS? That we could have tariff-free trade without free movement of people?
Everyone in politics and Government knows what has happened here. The Remain campaign ran a basically honest but dull campaign which was over-polite because Cameron was afraid of long-term blue on blue reputational damage. Corbyn didn't commit because he is only lukewarm on EU.
The Leave campaign ran a more modern post-truth emotive campaign. They didn't have any evidence for Brexit so they tried to rubbish all evidence. And they pinned their electioneering on a handful of totally dishonest lies, such as the £350 million and the promise of the EU rolling over to give us a better deal than we have at the moment.
These are not things that I consider to be a lie. These are things which just about everybody in politics, Government and finance knows to be a lie. On the morning of 24 June, the Leave campaigners were frantically distancing themselves from these lies and now they hope that they will quietly be forgotten.
Jim wrote: "Will wrote: "So how do you propose to pay for the inspectors, then? Or do you want to go to a world with no inspection, no food hygiene standards, no health & safety?When I buy beef from the butc..."
I really don't know what you guys are arguing about anymore, but one thing I do know, Jim; you've just put me off buying meat for awhile!
David - we're still arguing because Brexit isn't settled yet. We don't yet know what form it will take - a Theresa May soft Brexit or an IDS hard Brexit. We don't know what impact it would have on Scottish independence. We don't know how much it will cost (apart from lots). We don't even know if it's going to happen. The big crunch is coming in the next couple of years. Maybe sooner.
Will wrote: "David - we're still arguing because Brexit isn't settled yet. We don't yet know what form it will take - a Theresa May soft Brexit or an IDS hard Brexit. We don't know what impact it would have on ..."Thanks for explaining.
I have heard that Theresa May is at a bit of a loose end this afternoon and will be joining this group, with the express purpose of gaining some ideas on which to base her strategy!!!!
David wrote: "I really don't know what you guys are arguing about anymore, but one thing I do know, Jim; you've just put me off buying meat for awhile! ..."the easy way to buy decent meat is to go to a butcher who buys from a slaughterhouse and who buys carcasses he cuts up himself.
They'll be UK sourced (possible exception NZ lamb) and will have been killed, prepared and tested under the strictest regime in the world.
Or you could just buy from a supermarket that imports cheap crap from anywhere in the world where they're selling it for 10p a ton cheaper than anywhere else
Jim wrote: "David wrote: "I really don't know what you guys are arguing about anymore, but one thing I do know, Jim; you've just put me off buying meat for awhile! ..."the easy way to buy decent meat is to g..."
I'll keep that in mind if I ever find myself living in the UK. Over here it's mostly a function of trying to find a butcher who's careful to avoid meat that's been loaded up with growth hormone and antibiotics. Or just not eat much meat, which is how we approach the issue.
actually if you want to avoid the hormones, avoid cabbage and soya both of which have far more in them than the meat, even if it does have implants :-)
I'm with you on the soya, it's fine for women but not at all suitable as a regular item for children especially boys. The French labelling advises that but not in the UK. I didn't know about cabbage. I get my meat from the farmers directly. There are some excellent suppliers at the farmers market locally. I do occasionally buy supermarket pork to make sausages with.
Jim wrote: "actually if you want to avoid the hormones, avoid cabbage and soya both of which have far more in them than the meat, even if it does have implants :-)"Well, I probably eat cabbage about as often as I eat beef, both of which I enjoy on occasion.
I will say that when I lived in Austria, I generally found the meat served there to be far tastier than what we get in the states. Now, a lot of that had to do with preparation, I know (damn Austrians can cook!), but even the meat we bought in grocery stores or at the butcher seemed better. I did know quite a few American diplomats who would only eat "American" beef they bought at PXs on US military bases. Apparently they didn't realize the US military stocks its European PXs with beef bought from Germany.
Like most Americans, I am reluctant to eat horse meat. I've had it twice and both times I didn't know until after the fact. Once was in Samarkan eating "Samarkan plov" (and after I asked what makes Samarkan plov so distinctive was told "it's the horse meat"). The other was in Austria when after the fact I noticed the sign on that street vendor reading "von Pferd." In both cases, I had to admit, it was very tasty (and I feel bad about that lol).
Out of curiosity, anybody know how much cabbages are being shot up with antibiotics these days?
Cabbage doesn't have antibiotics, it's just that some varieties are naturally high in oestrogens and when they started testing cattle for hormone use they found that cattle fed cabbage had higher levels of oestrogen than cattle which had had an oestrogen implant. They also discovered that older female cattle also had higher levels of oestrogen than implanted male cattle.
With regard to flavour, in crude terms and not trying to be at all offensive, Americans tend to like bland flavoured meat that is succulent.
I've seen work done by properly trained taste panels. Basically when they're properly trained a taste panel in the UK will give exactly the same marks for the various categories as will one in America or Spain.
But then when you ask them whether they enjoyed it, an entirely subjective question, you'll get regional differences.
So for example, with Lamb, New Zealanders like a very strongly flavoured lamb,(almost like game) the Spanish like something blander and more succulent, whilst we like something in between.
So carcasses we sell to the Spanish market tend to be grain fed and smaller. They're blander and more succulent.
American meat is almost always finished in feedlots so is grain fed and will be succulent. (That's how you like it, so that's how they finish them, and because that's what you eat, that's how you like it. :-) )
When I did beef for freezers I'd always go for grass fed beef, a bit older, slower grown, less succulent but a lot more flavour.
Now we can produce 'American' beef, indeed those slaughterhouses with a contract for US bases probably bought bull beef which is intensively reared, grain fed, and will be the nearest thing that Europe produces to American taste.
With regard horse I like the Icelandic attitude. There they run pony herds like beef suckler herds. But the nicest and most tractable animals are sold for the pony trekking market, the rest go for meat. The problem in the UK is that we've got vast numbers of horse which are appallingly badly bred and trained and most of them travel to the continent, either alive or more commonly dead.
I didn't know that about cabbage Jim, how interesting. I wonder if that goes towards explaining why cabbage leaves are used on (sorry about this) engorged breasts to decrease milk supply in nursing mothers? I always thought it was just because they were about the right shape - nicely cupped!!
This thread is currently more interesting than it's been for a long time!
I didn't know that about cabbage - I love the stuff and wouldn't mind eating it every day........ perhaps that's why I'm ALL woman, man!!!!Maybe that's why I sailed through the menopause with no problems too!
Rosemary (grooving with the Picts) wrote: "I didn't know that about cabbage Jim, how interesting. I wonder if that goes towards explaining why cabbage leaves are used on (sorry about this) engorged breasts to decrease milk supply in nursing..."that I genuinely don't know.
But frankly the whole thing was a farce. Apparently the only evidence for risk to humans came from Italy where they were using illegal stuff anyway and continued to do so. The Irish were using Angel Dust (clenbuterol) illegally. That's been pretty well stamped out because carcass quality was so good that the inspector could just walk down the line and pick out various carcasses to be tested and get them all. Given that it's an anti-asthma drug I'm not sure how dangerous it is to people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clenbut...
With with the growth promoters banned in the EU, the problem the EU had was there was no scientific evidence at all of risk to the public, and they've never been able to find any which is why the Americans were able to impose fines on the EU under WTO rules.
Now a deal has been patched up because the US has realised that they'd never sell meat treated with growth promoters in the EU, except at an uneconomically low price, because of consumer reaction so I think peace has broken out in that trade war
Clenbuterol is being pitched as being a diet drug to aid fat loss.
Jim wrote: "Cabbage doesn't have antibiotics, it's just that some varieties are naturally high in oestrogens and when they started testing cattle for hormone use they found that cattle fed cabbage had higher l..."Not offending me at all. I greatly prefer grass-fed beef. Actually, I'd rather eat venison or other game when I eat meat at all. It does indeed have more flavor. But, unlike a lot of my countrypersons, I tend to eat whatever's available when overseas. Unlike some of my colleagues in foreign service who, I kid you not, shipped over boatloads of Spam so they'd never have to taste foreign food. :-)
Grrrrr! I really hate it when people do that. What's the point of visiting places new, if you are going to do exactly the same as you do at home!!
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Clenbuterol is being pitched as being a diet drug to aid fat loss."well if they ask 'does my bum look big in this' the answer is probably yes, but it'll be muscle not fat :-)
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Grrrrr! I really hate it when people do that. What's the point of visiting places new, if you are going to do exactly the same as you do at home!!"it may be the difference between visiting and living. A mate of mine was in Japan for quite a while and developed a craving for beans on toast :-)
I love Greek food - but when you break it down - most of their recipes are variations on a lot of food we eat anyway. Stifado, for instance - is basically a very flavoursome beef casserole. I think you are right though - if I was living there, I probably would get the occasional craving for a Clarksie or beans on toast.
message 4285:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Aug 21, 2016 03:25PM)
(new)
Will wrote: "What question? I don't read all your posts. Life is much too short. Which one do you want an answer to?"You are being deceitful and evasive Will. You know exactly which question I have asked you a number of times and you persist in not answering. The fact that you pretend you do not know the question, gives me some indication of how easily duped you think we are. You tried to dodge it once and were called out. Not by me, but someone else here.
The reason you have not answered is because you already know the answer but are not honest enough to admit it.
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Grrrrr! I really hate it when people do that. What's the point of visiting places new, if you are going to do exactly the same as you do at home!!"I have to agree. Although on a quick visit to exotic lands, the two day rule applies. I.e. eat nothing too adventurous unless you have a couple of days before your next flight to recover!
We even avoid chippie the day before we fly from the UK.I didn't know about hormones in cabbage. We eat a lot of cabbage here in Baku. I wonder if it's hormoney. (Isn't that the name of a character in Harry Potter?)
I do try to not feed Dave soya too many times in a week.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "We even avoid chippie the day before we fly from the UK.I didn't know about hormones in cabbage. We eat a lot of cabbage here in Baku. I wonder if it's hormoney. (Isn't that the name of a charact..."
I remember the joys of lettuce washed in distilled water with bleach.
I've never bothered with the bleach. When we first moved to Kampala I would wash our veg in water that had been boiled but gave up after a while. We had the shits for the first six months no matter what we did.
I don't think soya is so much of a problem for adults - but look at all the ladyboys, and where they are from, they are fed on soy as a staple from children.Our friend who works for British airways always eats local but not anything too unusual, wherever he is. He broke his own rule once and went for an English breakfast and had to be hospitalised he was so ill. Fish did for me in Africa and I haven't been able to eat it since.
The time we almost died from food poisoning in India, we had dinner with another couple we'd met on the train.They had egg and chips, we had veg curry and roti.
Eating in India is always a crap shoot. Literally.
I was great in India and Nepal - I even put on a couple of pounds but Africa - that was a real bummer :o)
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo) wrote: "Will wrote: "What question? I don't read all your posts. Life is much too short. Which one do you want an answer to?"You are being deceitful and evasive Will. You know exactly which question I ha..."
No, I genuinely don't know what question you want an answer to. I try to answer all your questions, but there was a spell while I was on holiday where I couldn't keep up with GR because I had a poor internet connection. You might have noticed that I wasn't posting anything for a while.
Tell me what the question was and I'll answer it.
And, as usual, there is no need for the insults. It is getting very tiresome having to say that every time. Perhaps it's time for you to try to be civil?
Patti (baconater) wrote: "The time we almost died from food poisoning in India, we had dinner with another couple we'd met on the train.They had egg and chips, we had veg curry and roti.
Eating in India is always a crap s..."
I remember a chap writing who had infected himself with a tape worm before travelling. He could eat anything, street food, even drink water from the Ganges. No tummy problems whatsoever, although the tape worm did twitch a bit when he ate some seriously strong curries.
When he got home he took the proper tablets and got rid of the tapeworm
The question was quite simple. Will:"Prove me wrong, Will. Show me one point throughout this whole thread, where you have changed your mind on any subject during the discussion. If I'm insulting you, that should be easy, right?
Well, Will, let's see if you answer it now.
Already answered in posts 4137 and 4144. Go read them for yourself.
Jim wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "The time we almost died from food poisoning in India, we had dinner with another couple we'd met on the train.They had egg and chips, we had veg curry and roti.
Eating i..."
That is a 'precaution'. I'd rather do without, however it reminds me of my elderly grandmother refusing to take something the doctor prescribed to help her lose weight. She was convinced they contained worms.
Will wrote: "Already answered in posts 4137 and 4144. Go read them for yourself."As you know 4137 was nothing to do with the question and this was a refutation of 4144 - From Flo
All the things you mention Will are just you being wrong about things and having your mind changed for you by having fait accomplis landing in your lap........ not you changing your mind!!!
The answer, I must presume is never. You are what I've always suspected, not a single argument in this thread has broken through your barriers of complacency and preconceived beliefs.
I'm through with you. There is no point whatever in debating with someone whose beliefs are so entrenched that they cannot be convinced by a compelling argument. Even jihadists can be de-radicalised. You are beyond that. I will continue to debate here but without any reference to you. I will ignore your comments.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I've never bothered with the bleach. When we first moved to Kampala I would wash our veg in water that had been boiled but gave up after a while. We had the shits for the first six months no matter..."True that. Although there's "the shits" and the "oh my god I'm going to die shits."
Jim wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "The time we almost died from food poisoning in India, we had dinner with another couple we'd met on the train.They had egg and chips, we had veg curry and roti.
Eating i..."
Urgh. That's creepy! I did try a regimen of large amounts of acidophilus starting a couple of weeks before a swing through Central Asia once and that seemed effective.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
That Old Ace in the Hole (other topics)
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but given so many of them look into their future and can see their people voting to leave they're unlikely to make things too difficult as they could be the next ones screwed by it.
As for the costs of government, I've come to the conclusion that they rise inexorably anyway whatever you do. In my time watching Defra in it's various incarnations the process seems to be
Grow
Look embarrassed, spin work out to agencies who don't get included in the ministry head count, but do get civil service salaries and pensions.
Boast of new, leaner look
Grow
And of course to ensure there's the budget you allow the agencies to charge the industry direct for the 'service' they provide regulating them.
The only case I can think of where a government successfully curbed the bureaucracy was when in the late Roman Empire the barbarians cut out the bureaucracy and became the army and collected the money direct from the tax payer in person