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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
Corbyn's problems come from his own convictions. Whereas many politicians are willing to put aside their personal beliefs on a subject to follow the decision of the majority in the party, Corbyn doesn't and never has. This is the reason why he never rose above the back benches in the past.This conflict over the referendum is why he didn't support Remain. He tried, but it was lacklustre at best. As a result the message came out that Labour didn't have a policy, when it clearly did. The Labour vote didn't get the message, thankfully.
This will continue to be a problem, until there is a Parliamentary Labour Party that agrees with his views, or he stops being the Leader of the Opposition. Whether that will ever happens is in the hands of the members.
I'm sorry Jim, but both sides didn't lie like a bulletin. The Remain side had the resources of the Government behind them. That gave them one unfair advantage but it also meant that they had to stay relatively honest. That's why Gove made his infamous speech about not listening to experts any more.The trick that the leave campaign pulled was to convince some people that all facts were hokey. It was a clever strategy to hide the fact that there is no economic or financial case for leaving the EU. This meant they could focus the debate on the emotional arguments.
When it comes to Corbyn, I think he is in two minds about Europe. The EU does do a lot of things that he believes in, such as the protection of workers' rights. But it also has policies that he doesn't believe in, such as its economic policies. I think he was being totally honest when he said in an interview that his support for the EU was about 70%. Frankly, I think that was one of the most honest things that any politician said during the referendum campaign,
The other problem that the Remain campaign did was they tried to recreate the Scottish Referendum Doom and Destruction prediction.The difference was, it was massively overused. It was hammered home, time and time again. It was mentioned by everyone the Remainers could find, people who, quite honestly, had lost their credibility years ago. As a result, the incredible were mixed in with the credible. The result was a grey soup of confusion, as people tried to understand who was telling the truth and who to believe. Both were in short supply and when Gove said that we should stop listening to experts he tapped into a raw belief that over the years we have been ill-informed by experts time and time again and therefore they cannot be trusted.
I know this is difficult for you to take in, Will, as you consider yourself an expert. However, many people in this country believe that experts are in the pay of the politicians and therefore do their bidding, bending to the political needs as required by whomsoever is in power.
Will wrote: "I'm sorry Jim, but both sides didn't lie like a bulletin. The Remain side had the resources of the Government behind them. That gave them one unfair advantage but it also meant that they had to sta..."oh please, you'll be telling be next that governments tell the truth all the time, don't use good days to bury bad news and never bury unfavourable reports
As I've said many a time, the Remain camp had 40 years to make the case for Europe, but in the end, their argument boiled down to this: Yes, the EU is crap, but change is risky...They richly deserved the defeat and contempt that was heaped upon them...
Proof, if any were needed, that the Leave camp had no idea what they were voting for.
Michael Cargill wrote: "Proof, if any were needed, that the Leave camp had no idea what they were voting for."I know why I voted leave, and have no regrets in doing so.
When big banks, corporations, spiv politicians, and everybody from NATO to the IMF are predicting the 7 plagues of Egypt if we leave, then as a working man, alarm bells were ringing. These people have never had my interests at heart, so I voted accordingly...
Indeed.Why listen to anyone who might be qualified on the subject? Someone on the telly mentioned Turkey and paraded alongside a bus with a big number plastered across it.
neither side had much of an argument thereby lay a problem, what to fill a campaign up with...
Indeed was the campaign really needed? We'd had decades of experience to draw on when we wanted to make our minds up.After all, at a general election you listen to the promises both sides make, and balance them against what the various parties have delivered in the past.
With the Referendum campaign, the failure of the remain campaign was to convince us that the experience of being in the EU was worth continuing with. The longer you'd lived in the EU, the more likely you were to vote leave. The Remain campaign had no positive selling point for remaining in an organisation we've been members of for two generations, merely fear of the future
Michael Cargill wrote: "Indeed.Why listen to anyone who might be qualified on the subject? Someone on the telly mentioned Turkey and paraded alongside a bus with a big number plastered across it."
The leave side's Turkey argument was complete bollocks and I say that as a leave voter.
I've also mentioned numerous times that immigration was never an issue for me, living as I do in a fairly remote area, we rarely see or are effected by, immigrants or immigration.
As somebody with degree level qualifications in history and geopolitics, I also knew from my own knowledge that the Remain's claims about peace being threatened, NATO going under, Putin dancing on the streets of Moscow if we voted leave, etc etc were also bollocks, so both sides were as wretched as each other.
Experts have ulterior motives as well, let's not forget that...
Many academics have benefited enormously over the years from EU funding - they were never going to bite the hand that feeds them...
Jim wrote: "Indeed was the campaign really needed? We'd had decades of experience to draw on when we wanted to make our minds up.After all, at a general election you listen to the promises both sides make, an..."
I've said it before but the last thing Cameron wanted in 2015 was a Tory majority - the plan was always about dodging the issue and then blaming Clegg again when said referendum never materialized...
The referendum was ultimately a Conservative party problem foisted onto the nation...
As always, Tory problems became national problems, which is why I despise them...
Just out of interest did anybody else get the free trip to the European Parliament?https://jandbvwebster.wordpress.com/2...
Jim wrote: "Just out of interest did anybody else get the free trip to the European Parliament?https://jandbvwebster.wordpress.com/2..."
Interesting post, Jim. Thanks.
Yeah, but those Brexiters were probably down the local Tesco Express telling the staff to piss off back home.Chat shit, get banged.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Jim wrote: "then there's this onehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/..."
Oh ferfuksake."
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Your point, David?"There are lots of unhappy people in the UK these days?
Michael Cargill wrote: "Yeah, but those Brexiters were probably down the local Tesco Express telling the staff to piss off back home.Chat shit, get banged."
And if the boss says that without checking it's actually true, that's bullying
David wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "Your point, David?"There are lots of unhappy people in the UK these days?"
It's interesting. Most people I know have moved on. Brexit is going to happen, the world isn't ending. There's more important things to worry about.
But then I live in an area which voted out and doesn't have a problem with immigrants so 'racism' isn't really a factor anyway
Jim wrote: "David wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "Your point, David?"There are lots of unhappy people in the UK these days?"
It's interesting. Most people I know have moved on. Brexit is going to happen, ..."
Sensible view, Jim. But, geeze, it's a needed distraction to us 'mericans to be able to watch folks in some other English speaking county yell insults and vitriol at each other. If you guys stop, there'll be nothing left for us except dealing with our own lunacy! :-)
Personally I think it's the same lunacy and it's being tackled in the same way.Having a proportion of your population that feels it's been left behind and ignored seems to be the common problem
It isn't cured by pouring insults on them and writing them of as racist white trash
Or at least, if that's the preferred solution, disenfranchise them first and increase your policing budget
the Americans are good as disenfranchising people by nefarious means. The Jim Crow laws come to mind. Britain's disenfranchised seems more down to apathy
Marc wrote: "the Americans are good as disenfranchising people by nefarious means. The Jim Crow laws come to mind. Britain's disenfranchised seems more down to apathy"That, and the fact they have to put up with the likes of Neil Kinnock pontificating at them.
I'm against the Lords, but thanks for the peerage...
The EEC is no friend to the British worker...yes, I'll take that EU money, and so will my family...
And so on and so on...
Jim wrote: "It's interesting. Most people I know have moved on. Brexit is going to happen, the world isn't ending. There's more important things to worry about."I rate the odds of Brexit happening at around 50-50. The Government knows that it can't implement a Brexit which is anything like the one promised by the Leave campaign. The difficult question is whether they can come up with something which is going to be vaguely acceptable to the public and which isn't ruinous to the economy.
At the moment, Whitehall is on pause during the summer recess. The autumn statement will probably be the next piece of big news where we will see how much intervention Hammond needs to make to stave off an economic downturn. The Bank of England are saying - quite rightly - that there is only so much they can do with rate cuts and quantitative easing.
The newspapers are in a fascinating place. The Telegraph is the only broadsheet talking up Brexit. The Guardian is almost entirely gloomy about the economy. The Independent (online) and Times are somewhere in the middle but tending towards the gloomy end of the spectrum.
The problem is that few people read all of the newspapers. Most read just one, which tends to mean that their opinions are coloured by that newspaper's politics. Only the Times and Independent are regularly printing both sides of the argument.
This one isn't over. The real reckoning will come when the Government tries to turn Brexit into a reality. I predict more fireworks when that happens.
I'll be gobsmacked if it happens.Actually, I'd be willing to £10 against at the bookies.
I'm really not so sure. I suspect that both the Tory and Labour parties will feel that they have no choice, no matter how bad the consequences.
Jim wrote: "Personally I think it's the same lunacy and it's being tackled in the same way.Having a proportion of your population that feels it's been left behind and ignored seems to be the common problem
It..."
Pretty sure there are significant differences between UK lunacy and what's going on over here. We've pretty much devolved into hurling vicious insults at each other, regardless of race, creed, religion or poiitical leanings. But one thing you should keep in mind: unlike the UK, all policing here is local. If the country falls apart into violent anarchy, the police go with it. :-)
Will wrote: "I'm really not so sure. I suspect that both the Tory and Labour parties will feel that they have no choice, no matter how bad the consequences."the problem is the end of the world hasn't happened. The EU looks no better than it did six months ago, in fact economically it might be in a worse state. The latest figures showing how bad Brexit was going to be and how much money we'd lose ended up admitting that these figures assumed we got no deal at all and had to accept WTO deals with everybody. That was downright mendacious when you think how many countries will be happy to give us a better deal.
Talking about, up here even people who voted remain expect us to leave because that's the way we voted, and would react badly to a government or party that tried to fudge the issue so we didn't leave
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I'll be gobsmacked if it happens.Actually, I'd be willing to £10 against at the bookies."
Haven't seen the rise of inflation, have you? Your £10 is not worth £10 anymore. He he he :)
Will wrote: "I'm really not so sure. I suspect that both the Tory and Labour parties will feel that they have no choice, no matter how bad the consequences."As I've said before, Farage's 'retirement' is a smokescreen, he'll be back, and that means the loss of Labour's old heartlands, and for the Tories, nervousness about leaking votes to UKIP.
If UKIP could panic Cameron into giving a referendum, imagine what sort of support they'll get if they convince people that BREXIT is being 'betrayed.'
So yes, I'm agreement with you - they have to plough on.
Jim wrote: "Will wrote: "I'm really not so sure. I suspect that both the Tory and Labour parties will feel that they have no choice, no matter how bad the consequences."the problem is the end of the world ..."
My grandmother isn't panicking about BREXIT, but then again, her generation seen off Hitler, so I suppose our 'hardship' pales into comparison with the war...
I was born post-war (6 years later), but the older part of my family and my parents went through it, and although the war ended in 45 - the hardships didn't. I'm one of 7 kids with a Mum that didn't work, not many women did in those days, and a Dad who was an insulin dependent Diabetic, which meant he had frequent periods of hospital admissions, with the consequential sick pay (which was next to nothing). We had very little........... we survived - so I guess, even creeping into my post-war generation, we still had the belief that whatever life chucks at us - we won't just give up the ghost and crumble!
I'm a similar vintage Flo, except my mum worked (outside the home as well I mean. Her and her sister job shared in those days at John Players cigarette factory, auntie did mornings and mum did afternoons and the children were watched over by their own aunt who brought them up after being effectively orphaned in the first war. Their father was killed and their mother couldn't cope and abandoned them. Life wasn't at all easy then so no rose coloured specs in our house either, they didn't complain much either, just got on with it.
It was the generation that saw off Hitler which voted to join the EU in the first place.
Not me - I was a no thanks and my Mum was a no-er. I didn't know anyone in my neck of the woods who said they wanted to join.
No again Michael. Edward Heath was the PM , I didn't vote and my parents and family would never have voted for anything the Tories wanted either. Sorry. There were no demographic voting figures so It's all opinion and conjecture. The idea that that generation would have rushed into a union with Germany after fighting them is a bit hard to believe.
Michael Cargill wrote: "It was the generation that saw off Hitler which voted to join the EU in the first place."Was there actually a vote to go in?
I remember a referendum - which I wasn't old enough to vote in, but some friends were - which was whether to leave or stay at that time.
You can't worship a particular generation for fighting WWII and then wave your hands dismissively and say it's impossible to tell who voted in the 1975 referendum.
Michael Cargill wrote: "You can't worship a particular generation for fighting WWII and then wave your hands dismissively and say it's impossible to tell who voted in the 1975 referendum."actually you can
We know who fought in the Second world war, right down to the individual names if you want (allowing for a few records lost and destroyed)
Who voted in 1974? Well I did for a start and I wasn't born until a decade or more after the war has finished
I'm not waving anything, I'm just stating there aren't accurate statistics of demographics in that vote or any other vote other than opinions polls. You can surmise they must have voted in that way, I don't know how the war generation voted other than my family. Don't forget the baby boomers, they are usually blamed for everything, I'm surprised they haven't been found guilty of that act as well. As for worshipping the generation that fought the war where did that come from? I do admire those that got through it and those that didn't. They didn't have any choice, remember,
There was no opt out vote for that piece of history.
What a load of crap.Even back then it was well known that younger people didn't vote in anywhere near the numbers that adults did.
Nothing I've said is crap. The fact you might not agree doesn't make it wrong. The 'it is well known '. Everyone knows etc is flannelling inferring if you don't you're at fault. As soon as I hear that in a debate I 've had enough. Night night,
Jay-me (Janet) wrote: "Michael Cargill wrote: "It was the generation that saw off Hitler which voted to join the EU in the first place."Was there actually a vote to go in?
I remember a referendum - which I wasn't ol..."
Not a vote to go in, but a vote to stay or go a few years after.
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given that it looks as if outside London their core support has tended to vote leave, it could be one way he could rally the party and make it more relevant to voters so he might have been wise