UK Amazon Kindle Forum discussion
General Chat - anything Goes
>
The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
And however customers react to losing immigrant labour, we would lose the taxation income that they bring as immigrant workers tend to be in their 20s and 30s and so pay more in taxes than they take from the welfare state. Trouble is Will, that there are a helluva lot of immigrants of the illegal variety doing these jobs and they don't pay their taxes.
From what I've seen of some working practices for pickers and farm workers they've been paid the minimum wage then charged for 'accommodation' which has been very poor and cramped. I can't see them paying a lot of tax on that basis. But as you say a lot of locals won't do the work. It's a real problem and I can't see a solution unless we start to buy and eat seasonal local foods more as we used to. I'd be happy to but I think I'd be in the minority.
I'd be happy with that too Lynne - but it would be difficult to pay out more on some of the very low incomes that are paid today. (possibly because of the immigrants)
Yes it's a real chicken/egg situation. There's slave labour in that trade too. My neighbour had foreign workers living in a 'summerhouse' at the end of his garden. He employs labourers on the refinery contracts not agriculture though.
Just read in the paper today that one of the gangmasters has lost his licence because of paying less than minimum wage, no holiday pay etc.But it's just a symptom. The British public are happy to buy cheap stuff produced by slave labour. How many Chinese working for Apple kill themselves every year? What are the wages of the women in Bangladesh who sew the effectively disposable T shirts that are sold?
Food's no different
On the agricultural front if we cannot produce veg at a price the consumer is happy to pay, then we'll stop producing it. The land will either just go down to grain, or whatever.
What tends to happen (in very crude terms) is that the best land stays in agriculture and the poorer land goes for kids to ride motorbikes on or for tyre dumps or whatever. It often becomes a sort or rural slum with ponies kept in sheds, ragwort and hedges composed mainly of rusting corrugated iron.
I don't think we'll get to the situation where the British will actually do the work. The price that's paid for the goods is such that you cannot pay those doing the work more than people would get in benefits and certainly it wouldn't be a living wage
So we'd stop growing it here and import it from somewhere else where they don't pay what we regard as a living wage.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: " I can't see a solution unless we start to buy and eat seasonal local foods more as we used to. I'd be happy to but I think I'd be in the minority. "I do that, Lynne. I've always done it. I do everything possible to keep British workers (or foreigners living here) in jobs. I buy British cars or ones that have been made here. My vegetables come from Kent, I can almost see them being grown. As much as possible comes from locally grown or produced goods. Clothing is difficult but M & S say they're going to return to British made clothes. Hmm...
It seems to have run in my family because my father was like that and he would only buy Shell or BP petrol. Keeping people in jobs. Now my children think likewise and my son has carried it further and bought shares in a local company.
So don't give up, Lynne. There's a few of us around.
Eating seasonally is hard - I'm not so fond of winter veg but now that we have these protective tunnels (sorry Jim, I've forgotten their proper name) the growing seasons for fruit and veg have stretched. Hurray!
Very glad to hear the gangmaster has been found out.
Thanks Anna, I'm with you on so many points. I was listening to the food programme months ago about Sweden policy of actively sourcing only regional products for school and local authority catering.
It would take me back to childhood for meals but we were always properly nourished even if we didn't like the winter veg so much either. Exotic fruit and out of season veg was a treat but now its everyday fodder for all.
The growing crisis of continental transport difficulties might just be a catalyst to kickstart our planners to consider alternatives to many imports.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "The growing crisis of continental transport difficulties might just be a catalyst to kickstart our planners to consider alternatives to many imports. ..."I'm genuinely not sure. The problem is our economy has shifted..
As a general rule of thumb this generation can eat organic and spend a lower proportion of their income on food than their parents did buying conventional.
Or you can compare the proportion of our income spent on food with the rest of the world
http://wsm.wsu.edu/researcher/wsmaug1...
Another graph, for the US but ours is very similar, is here
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2...
So if we shifted money back to spending on food, where is it going to come from. We're not going to get extra money, it's going to come from within the same budget. As a country we've driven up housing costs. In crude terms we haven't built enough houses, often because people with houses haven't wanted other people to build houses near them. Offer a town a new housing estate and people will protest just as they would for an airport or nuclear power station.
And look at all the other stuff people spend money on that wasn't there thirty years ago.
If we increase the proportion of our income we spend on food, then people are going to have to buy a lot less of other stuff, and we'll see growing unemployment. If everybody canceled their phone contracts, stopped buying apps, stopped renting videos and just went back to using the landline and watching broadcast TV how many would lose their jobs?
Jim as usual you've nailed it. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. People now spend more on mobiles per month than we did on our mortgage on our first house. We had to wait for a landline for months too, how did we manage to survive :o)
It's sometimes called the wealth trap. As we get more income we often adjust our discretionary spending by considering more things to be essential. Someone on a middle or high income can feel relatively squeezed because they have an increased perception of the minimum level of spending or consumption that they would accept.If we get cheap food we spend our money on other things, like electronics or booze.
Unfortunately, it is much easier to cope with reducing prices by spending more than it is to cope with increasing prices by spending less on something. That's why the Bank of England and the Treasury are trying to avoid "stagflation" - a stagnant economy with lower incomes but rising inflation. Goods cost more but we haven't got the extra income to pay for it.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Jim as usual you've nailed it. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. People now spend more on mobiles per month than we did on our mortgage on our first house. We had to wait for a landline ..."
Very true Lynne. My first mortgage was for £4,700, can't remember the monthly payment, but if we'd had today's interest rate we'd have been laughing..... ours went up to 15% at one stage!!
Thanks for all the replies to my question. As for myself, I've got my allotment and I'm churning out the potatoes and leeks, but not carrots - damn carrot flea got them :(I think we'll see a lot more of people shifting back to allotments and growing stuff in their gardens to make up the shortfall...
I don't know about that, Rumph. I think there is a huge proportion of the populace who have never seen a dirty potato, never mind having the knowledge nor desire to grow them.
R.M.F wrote: "Thanks for all the replies to my question. As for myself, I've got my allotment and I'm churning out the potatoes and leeks, but not carrots - damn carrot flea got them :(I think we'll see a lot ..."
not me, I'm urban
Mum and Dad used to have an allotment, and I would love to eifher have a veg patch in my garden or a small allotment. I don't have any problem with interestingly shaped vegetables. I would be chopping them up anyway.
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Thanks for all the replies to my question. As for myself, I've got my allotment and I'm churning out the potatoes and leeks, but not carrots - damn carrot flea got them :(I think we..."
Urban in the original form of the word i.e civilized and sophisticated, or urban as in living in Milton Keynes or something :)
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I don't know about that, Rumph. I think there is a huge proportion of the populace who have never seen a dirty potato, never mind having the knowledge nor desire to grow them."
Dirty potatoes - they'll put hair on your chest :)
I'm lucky in that where I live is the best part of the UK for growing potatoes and oats, so there's a rich heritage of potato expertise in my area.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Thanks for all the replies to my question. As for myself, I've got my allotment and I'm churning out the potatoes and leeks, but not carrots - damn carrot flea got them :..."wash your mouth out, Milton Keynes. That's not urban, that's landscaped suburbia. You know full well I live in London
It would be inefficient for people to start growing their own vegetables.
No man bun? I am disappointed.
buns in all the wrong places at my age
Are they home grown buns then? Organic?
Michael Cargill wrote: "It would be inefficient for people to start growing their own vegetables."Any bought potato that sprouts gets planted in the one foot wide border to our garage before the apology for a lawn starts. Last year, from four sprouters, I dug up about 45 potatoes. The digging up was the only work required. So far this year I have two big plants flowering and one snoozing in the soil. Big, fat one it is.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Are they home grown buns then? Organic?"processed food bun deposits I imagine
Just musing rather than making a political pointRead in today's paper that one Libdem peer has resigned the Libdem whip because they've said they're going to ignore the referendum result. I think he commented along the lines of what part of democracy do they not understand.
UKIP is descending into farce where it looks as if the party may dissolve itself and reform because a small clique seems to have grabbed the NEC and are trying to kick out everybody who isn't an ex-tory MP
The Labour party has descended beyond farce. If the tories get the boundary reorganisation through (and it's time there was one) then pretty well all MPs in all parties will have to stand for re-selection and it'll be interesting to see how many sitting Labour MPs are replaced by persons more loyal to the leader (and then proceed to stand in their old seat anyway)
And the tories, who were supposed to be destroyed by Europe and the referendum vote, seem to be quite serene at the moment.
In fact it's lucky that there is a fixed term parliament because if Theresa May were to call a snap election, the two parties than came second and third last time aren't in any fit state to fight it
The Tories are doing their "let's stick together" thing where they put party unity over everything. They do it better than anyone else.Ideally, they would like to have a nice quiet period between now and 2020 when the other parties rip themselves to pieces in public and the Tories try to heal their divisions in private.
The problem that they face is that there could be a lot of pain between now and 2020. We might just about stay out of recession, but only if they have such a Brexit-lite which risks the right wing of the party crying foul. Meanwhile the weak pound is ripping a huge hole in the pensions deficit and the EU shows no sign of rolling over in the Article 50 negotiations.
All in all, the other political parties are having their internal battles now. The Tories are heading for theirs sometime around 2017-18. In the meantime, they will try to deflect the headlines onto something else.
We live in interesting times.
I think the tories are being held together because they actually have to do Brexit. Those who campaigned for it now have the job of delivering. My guess is our PM doesn't really mind whether we stay in or out, and the fiercely pro-Remain tories are a bit stunned at just how many of their voters are leave. If we had a labour party of a libdem party that looked as if it were capable of putting together a coherent platform then we might have seen tory remain MPs jumping ship. But not even the most left wing tory could imagine joining the Labour Party under Corbyn and I don't think any of them would risk joining the libdems
That just about sums it up Jim.
Britain is crying out for a genuine Conservative party, rather than this bunch who pretend to be Conservatives...As for the Lib Dems, well, they're the opportunistic lickspittles we all know them to be, so their shameless pitch to remain voters does not surprise me in the least...
And Labour? The party that died in 1983 is still shuffling along, a zombie that should have been put down long ago...
I wouldn't worry too much about UKIP if that's your party, because Farage's 'retirement' is nothing more than a sham. He'll be back...
Just caught a glimpse of Andy Murray in the Team GB parade...... what on earth was that double breasted monstrosity he was wearing that was a cross between a clown and a sack of spuds done up ugly??? Stella McCartney - you should be ashamed of yourself. It might not have looked so bad if he hadn't done it up!http://shop.teamgb.com/stores/TeamGB/...
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Just caught a glimpse of Andy Murray in the Team GB parade...... what on earth was that double breasted monstrosity he was wearing that was a cross between a clown and a sack of spuds done up ugly?..."I think this nation has lost the ability to dress well.
Look at David Niven, or the young Roger Moore, or Edward Fox in 'the day of the jackal.'
That's how a British man abroad dresses :)
is that how you dress?
Gordon Bennett. Are they really trying to sell them at that price. I wouldn't wear it as a dare.
Jim wrote: "I think the tories are being held together because they actually have to do Brexit. Those who campaigned for it now have the job of delivering. My guess is our PM doesn't really mind whether we sta..."No. The Tories don't have to do Brexit, and for that matter no-one quite knows what Brexit means. The "have your cake and eat it" Brexit that was sold to the public is clearly undeliverable. We don't make the claimed savings by leaving the EU - in fact we will almost certainly end up spending more as we try to stave off a full-blown recession. We can't have Farage levels of immigration control and retain access to the free market.
The fundamental question is what kind of compromise Brexit-lite can the Tories come up with and will it satisfy both their own party and the different factions within the public.
Signing article 50 is when the crunch point will come. That is when we start to see what Brexit-lite looks like. Then I guess we will split into three different points of view:
1. Brexit-lite doesn't go far enough on immigration. Leave voters and the Tory right will complain that it isn't what they voted for in the referendum.
2. Brexit-lite is a poor deal compared to EU membership and the predictions of economic slowdown were correct. With better information, we would want to change votes to Remain.
3. Brexit-lite is a reasonable compromise and the best we can get.
All parts of the political spectrum are biding their time. Let's see what Brexit-lite looks like and what happens to the economy. Then the arguments will start again, but with better information this time.
Has the so called coup in Turkey not given any remainders a reality check? Not even a tiny doubt that the EU is past its sell by date. If it was a fridge food item I'd be sniffing and checking it's OK to swallow.
especially as the deal from Turkey that is on the table is play ball with us and we'll hold back the refugees but we expect a lot more visas for Turks, or upset us and you can have all the refugees we can send you
What has the coup in Turkey got to do with the UK's membership of the EU? It was part of the Leave campaign's scare-mongering, but it was never explained.I'm far more worried about the current state of the UK economy, especially as we are more than 2 years away from leaving the EU.
That's the reality check for me.
Well when they all have passports and can issue EU passports Will, I'm saying it very slowly. Do I need to continue? A more corrupt regime with ideas of domination by the caliphate is hard to imagine.
Turkey has just about nothing to do with our membership of the EU.They aren't in the EU themselves are nowhere near being in it.
Lynne - yes you do need to continue. Turkey isn't in the EU. And even if they were what does that have to do with the UK?How does a corrupt regime in Turkey have anything to do with their citizens having EU passports?
They will be joining the EU. They are holding the EU to ransom over the migrant situation as a bargaining tool. You should read European newspapers.
Turkey are joining the EU? When?Erdogan has no desire to do so and even if he did, it would take about 10 years for them qualify... and as members of the EU we could have vetoed it anyway.
Marc wrote: "is that how you dress?"Nothing wrong with wearing a safari suit :)
He wants to overrun Europe one way or another. He has a very strong army of Turks in Germany already, it won't take many more buns before the elephant in the room explodes then you'll all take a bit more notice.
Will wrote: "Lynne - yes you do need to continue. Turkey isn't in the EU. And even if they were what does that have to do with the UK?How does a corrupt regime in Turkey have anything to do with their citizen..."
It's more to do with the potential of Turkish citizens getting visas that will allow them to travel all over Europe and the potential problem that may cause.
Turkey's borders with Syria and Iraq + corrupt border guards/immigration officials + terrorists getting Turkish visas = potential terrorist attacks....
UK Amazon Kindle Forum
Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
That Old Ace in the Hole (other topics)
More...
This pushes the industry into cheap labour working in Britain to hand pick the veg. This creates jobs in Britain, but at such low wages and unpleasant working conditions that few Brits would want to do it.
There are a number of things which could happen if the cheap labour wasn't available in Britain. The supermarkets could put the prices up to reflect the higher wage bills. They could import more veg from outside the UK. They could mechanise more, but at a cost in terms of quality (ie more wonky carrots).
Britain won't starve if we don't have access to cheap labour for farming. That would really be project fear!
If prices go up, we the consumers have to pay more. It would add to inflationary pressures and leave us less money to spend on other things.
If we import more, our farmers lose income. Some may go out of business - ironically particularly in places like Boston in Lincolnshire which voted heavily to leave.
Increased mechanisation would cost the farming industry more in new equipment and customers would have to accept wonky carrots. This might be the least worse outcome. We are all probably a little too precious about wonky carrots.
And however customers react to losing immigrant labour, we would lose the taxation income that they bring as immigrant workers tend to be in their 20s and 30s and so pay more in taxes than they take from the welfare state.