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So when an opinion poll says something you don't want to hear, you rubbish the whole science of opinion polls? No matter how hard you wriggle you can't get away from the fact that the leave campaign was a pack of lies and a large proportion of the public were fooled by them.
And, no, Jim, this point isn't going to go away no matter how much you don't want to hear it.
Oh, and there is a mild upturn in the FTSE because the mpc is expected to drop the base rate to 0.25% in the next couple of days. To try to stave off a recession
Very good article in the guardian. Whatever your politics, the underlying message is worth reading.https://www.theguardian.com/media/201...
Will wrote: "So when an opinion poll says something you don't want to hear, you rubbish the whole science of opinion polls?No matter how hard you wriggle you can't get away from the fact that the leave campaign was a pack of lies and a large proportion of the public were fooled by them."
The problem, as always, with polls is that they always show the answers but rarely the questions, which are equally if not more, important.
No matter how hard you wriggle you can't get away from the fact that the leave campaign was a pack of lies and a large proportion of the public were fooled by them.
Who are these members of the public that you think are so easily fooled, Will? I think a more accurate statement would be that both sides told a pack of lies, bending statistics until they are were a mere memory of where the true value was.
So, I repeat, who do you think was fooled by it?
Will wrote: "So when an opinion poll says something you don't want to hear, you rubbish the whole science of opinion polls? No matter how hard you wriggle you can't get away from the fact that the leave campa..."
sorry but you haven't a clue. You really haven't a clue. I've talked to scores of people up here, none of whom took the slightest notice of the 350 or whatever. The assumption made was that politicians lie, exaggerate etc etc, and nobody took any notice.
Anyway, you can go on about it all you want, even if it was a lie, so what? Do you want us to re-hold every vote that has been held where one party or the other lied?
Anyway the world has moved on, I suppose we'll have remain campaigners sitting, like Miss Havisham, alone in a dusty room, forgotten and ignored by the rest of the world wailing about being lied to
And that's the silliness of it. They're not wailing about themselves being lied to and deceived, (They're far to wise and anyway were guarded from falsehoods by the purity of the hearts of the Remain campaign spokesmen) they're worried that hoi polloi who are too stupid to vote were deceived.
They're up in arms defending other people who are actually quite happy with the result of the vote
hey Remainers are allowed to be naysers of doom. They will stand or fall by their predictions, just like that nutty group The Rapture in the US who keep changing their ascension date. All I'm saying is to make predictions right at this time is as factless as the campaign was itself. We will see who can proudly claim the right to "I told you so" in time
Jim - you're missing the point. Right now Theresa May is forming a cabinet under a "Brexit means Brexit" ticket. A new unit has been set up in the cabinet office to work out how the UK can make the best of a decision to leave the EU. The Treasury will be revising its economic forecast. The Bank of England's mpc are meeting to talk about reducing base rates still further.That means that the truth or otherwise of the £350 million figure is right at the heart of Government. Does the UK continue giving the grants that the EU used to give? Can we afford to spend more or less on the NHS? How do we manage the economy if consumers spend less and therefore the country receives less in tax income? How do we negotiate a deal with the EU which is as good as the one we are throwing away.
You may not be interested in these questions but they will affect your life and your job in ways that you can't begin to imagine. The questions may be hidden by the current leadership shenanigans, but they are critical.
Geoff - people voted leave for many reasons. Many did it because they wanted to reduce or stop immigration. Sorry, but the leave campaign never promised to do that.
Some voted leave because they were told that the UK would save money on its contributions to the EU. Sorry, but the leave campaign lied about that. The savings, if there are any, are far less than they claimed. And all the signs are that we are heading for an economic slowdown which will totally negate any savings from our EU contributions.
Some voted leave to take back control. Sorry, but our prime minister has just been chosen by an inner circle of right wing tories and you won't get to have a say in it until 2020.
Some voted on the promise of a better deal with the EU. Sorry, but the EU are playing hardball over that one. We may have to accept free movement if people and paying a contribution to the EU to get anywhere near to an acceptable deal.
It is really hard to see how leave voters are getting anything at all that they thought they voted for.
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "JI'm well aware of the system we have in this country, but you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at Tories who were shouting power to the people one minute, and the next mi..."I'd rather have a snap election, to be honest. Let the people have their say. True, the Labour party is a complete and utter shambles, but that's not the fault of the British public.
Who knows, the SNP may end up being the official opposition - they're competent enough at least.
And another point, there is a grain of truth about people being mislead by the media, but on the flipside, you could argue that a citizen's duty in any democracy is too keep themselves informed on the nature of government and politics in their respective nation. Take this 350 million a week claim. That works out at what, 14 billion a year or something.
If Britain's economic future hinged on 14 billion quid, we really would be in deep trouble. That's why I took these numbers with a pinch of salt.
Will wrote: "It is really hard to see how leave voters are getting anything at all that they thought they voted for. "Will many, many voters voted for the idea(l) of a thing. Many Remainers myself included voted because we like the idea of a EU while acknowledging the current version falls far from any ideal model we have in our heads. Many Leavers voted on the idea of restoring British sovereignty or getting their country back, or a calculation that if EU workers would be prevented from coming over & undercutting wages then that would improve the employment and wage situation - an idea they have no possible way of ensuring will play out in the way they anticipate, but they want to see it done as they believe it gives the best chance to realise their goal. Others voted leave because they anticipate this was the best way for government to hear their voice which has been ignored for so long (wonky thinking to my mind since the Tories are unlikely to accede to their desires) but they felt making the point was the key thing (and imagine they can hold government to account if {and when} if fails to deliver).
Voters vote on a whole spectrum from the specific to the general. My late father always voted Tory because he loathed what Labour proposed to do to the education system. The moment I graduated from University, he never bothered voting again.
Marc wrote: "The moment I graduated from University, he never bothered voting again. "Were the two events linked?
I've made no secret of my loathing of the Conservative party, but two events in recent days only reinforces this view:1) May's decision to appoint Bojo as Foreign Secretary is clearly a move to appease elements of the Tory party, not because he was the best man or woman for the job. Party before country...as always...
2) The complete and utter shambles that is Southern Rail. Privatisation? My arse! Tax payer subsidised railways, with Tory mates in the city making a killing off of them has to be one of the greatest acts of criminality ever inflicted on the British public...
I cannot comprehend why anybody would vote for these shysters and fly by nights. Hell, most Tory MPs, including May, aren't even Conservatives - they're Blairites through and through...
One of these days, this country is going to wake up and realise how un-conservative the Tories are, and sweep them away...
in your dreams I'm afraid.Mr and Mrs Devizes/New Forest/Littlehampton are perennial Tory voters. Remember when Blair targeted Mr & Mrs Worcester as crucial in delivering a Labour majority? Can't see Labour ever winning enough of those seats again to make a government.
And Conservatives pre-date Blair by about 300 years so I think you have that statement the wrong way round. Blair took Labour closer to the Conservatives
Sorry to add to your woes but I think Boris will surprise you. I don't like the buffoon aspect of his character but he's a clever fool for all that.
he's clever but he's innately lazy. he's also a completely loose canon who follows his impulses. I'm afraid the size of his brain is not commensurate with any sense of responsibility
I'm hoping he'll grow up at last.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Sorry to add to your woes but I think Boris will surprise you. I don't like the buffoon aspect of his character but he's a clever fool for all that."His track record would suggest otherwise. I gather that most Londoners are glad to see the back of him.
Marc wrote: "in your dreams I'm afraid.Mr and Mrs Devizes/New Forest/Littlehampton are perennial Tory voters. Remember when Blair targeted Mr & Mrs Worcester as crucial in delivering a Labour majority? Can't ..."
I'm sympathetic to the Conservative viewpoint myself, being an advocate of small government and individual liberty, but this 'Conservative' party is an insult to the name.
The old joke about labour weighing the vote in some parts of Scotland should equally apply to the conservative vote in parts of England.
When you have one party dominance in an area for a long time, corruption and nepotism are the inevitable result.
I'm not sure about that, his input into the olympics was enormous. Credit where it's due.
as a Londoner I would say Boris scooped up all the credit for the Olympics without doing much other than waving. It was Hoey & I think Jowell who did the bulk of the good work.
I like Kate Hoey, shes got common sense but not keen on Jowell at any price.
economic indicators are that things are looking gloomy for the UK post the referendum. But I will stick to an earlier post of mine and judge it over the course of the negotiations & fin al formal withdrawal to see where we are
The tragedy of the IMFs policy during the Greek crisis laid bare in its own report:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2...
Trouble is - if they were sacked - they'd probably have a lovely golden hand shake to take with them!!!!
I was thinking five minutes to fill a black binbag at their desk and then escorted of the premises by security
I'll probably start another anti-Tory rant, but after the Hinkley point debacle, what is it with the Tories when it comes to the UK's family silver? Everything they touch seems to turn to dust. First privatization, and now this. The sums of money involved are something to behold. This has to be one of the worst deals in British history.
I suppose it depends on who you want to blame. The decision to build new nuclear power stations was announced by Gordon Brown's Labour Government in 2008. Much of the negotiations for Hinkley Point C were carried out by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government between 2010 and 2015.
The most recent decision to pause the program and review the costs was taken by Theresa May's Conservative government.
So who are we going to get annoyed at? Labour for the initial decision? David Cameron and Nick Clegg for the negotiations? Theresa May for pressing pause?
R.M.F wrote: "I'll probably start another anti-Tory rant, but after the Hinkley point debacle, what is it with the Tories when it comes to the UK's family silver? Everything they touch seems to turn to dust. F...
First privatization"
That would be 'privatisation'
What's past is past - but I'm just glad the situation is being reassessed - whether they end up going ahead or not. It sounds like the original idea was agreed to without too much thought. I'm not a particular fan of Theresa May (or any other politician of the moment) but at least she's putting the "think" brakes on.
It was all up in the air until Wednesday anyway from the French point of view. The financial director resigned in October because of it so it wasn't exactly a done deal in many ways.
ha I see you did what I do all the time, miss the 'a' keystroke and hit the CapsLock instead. It drives me mad when I do that!
Thanks Marc - I've spent the last gawd knows how long trying to figure out what Ir meant!! lol
Just seen it. I can correct it for perfectionists (me)
I've got a manky case for my iPad. It wasn't what I ordered and it's rubbish, it hides a good bit of the screen especially the left side. My daughter's black MOFRED is lovely they sent me the wrong one and the I pad goes in it from left to right, hers is different. I wish I'd sent it back, it's going in the bin but after the crap service I'm reluctant to reorder another from them.
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I'll probably start another anti-Tory rant, but after the Hinkley point debacle, what is it with the Tories when it comes to the UK's family silver? Everything they touch seems to tur..."Pedant :P
"So who are we going to get annoyed at? Labour for the initial decision? David Cameron and Nick Clegg for the negotiations? Theresa May for pressing pause? "For the last 40 years, energy policy has been so badly mishandled by all parties as to border on the verge of treason.
If it were up to me, I'd throw them in the Tower of London!
Long term planning has been sacrificed on the altar of party politics. It's why we've been waiting on a federal solution these past decades, and it's why we're scrambling around looking for a long term energy policy.
And yes, I would blame the Tories. They squandered North Sea Oil, and now they're messing this up. The Tories cannot be trusted with this nation's interests, and to be fair, the other parties are not up to the job, either.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I'll probably start another anti-Tory rant, but after the Hinkley point debacle, what is it with the Tories when it comes to the UK's family silver? Everything they touch..."hey you claim to be the journalist not me
The problem has been choosing the French design. It was chosen because its output was very high and was the latest thing, technologically.What should be happening is to buy Korean, if you want large scale plants. They are due to switch on two power stations in UAE in 2017. They only began talks on the project in 2009. They are a known and reliable design too.
For long term I think we need to look smaller with local nuclear power generators based upon those used in submarines. They are fairly easy to run and maintain and can be quickly deployed.
At least one US company has designed a reactor that you drop into place and leave, then replace every 10 -15 years. No maintenance needed. Each could provide power for a medium sized town.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "The problem has been choosing the French design. It was chosen because its output was very high and was the latest thing, technologically.What should be happening is to buy Korean, if you want la..."
I don't know what it is about this nation anymore, but the ability to build large infrastructure projects seems to have escaped us...
The PFI deals should have seen the guilty parties spend time behind prison bars, instead, with the riches they plundered from the taxpayer, they ended up next to cocktail bars!
The Victorians, for all their faults, and they were many, just seemed to be able to build anything they needed...
R.M.F wrote: ""And yes, I would blame the Tories. They squandered North Sea Oil, and now they're messing this up...."given that Harold Wilson was PM when the oil first came ashore in 1975
Actually both major parties have had about the same length of time in power, with the balance being make up with the libdems in coalition :-)
They are right to query the figures for the Hinckley project. EDF announced a cut in their tariff for 2016 but then have backdated an increase for 2014 & 2015. How that can be legal God only knows. It's been legally challenged and the court if cassation has upheld it. It's like buying anything and two years later being told you paid too little and then being expected to cough up. Can you imagine if everyone did that. Another nail in France's coffin I'm afraid.
I was listening to any questions and a panelist, who should know better, spouted that the price of electricity would reach the same price as that offered to EDF. The price was index linked to avoid that. Muppet.
Husband tells me I'm slightly wrong in my assessment. It's the French government minister segolene Royal who has trumpeted the fall in energy tariffs for this year. She did not announce the back charges at the same volume though. They were merely a rectification of a miscalculation. As EDF is government backed and will collect the money i stand by my précis of the position.
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: ""And yes, I would blame the Tories. They squandered North Sea Oil, and now they're messing this up...."given that Harold Wilson was PM when the oil first came ashore in 1975
Actual..."
But you're forgetting Thatcher's 'generous' giveaway of North Sea oil profits in the 1980s.
I've got a farming question for Jim, or anybody else with the knowledge on this. You may or may not have seen the latest news stories warning that British farm produce is at risk because of BREXIT, as we won't be able to get East Europeans to pick cabbage, and as a result, Britain will starve or something...
What's your take on this, Jim, or anybody else?
To my mind, it's a combination of factors:
Customers want cheap produce, so supermarkets drive a hard bargain with producers, who pass this on with low wages, so your average Brit is not interested, so the industry is reliant on cheap labour from abroad.
Consequently, in order to attract Britons to do this work, they'll need a decent wage, and this will be reflected in higher prices at the shops...
Or is it as simple as that?
That sounds about right to me R.M.F.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
That Old Ace in the Hole (other topics)
More...
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpu......"
oh please, an opinion poll
Anyway, when we've discussed this one to death we can move on to discuss the sad demise of Queen Anne :-(