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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
JC has come out in favour of staying in, saying that the EC is in desperate need of reform, but we are better in than out.But the reforms he wants are going to be impossible.
Incidentally, I lost count of the number of times Cameron said that he was 'Battling For Britain'. Pillock.
We will never reform that bunch of gravy stained bureaucrats! We only contribute to their lifestyle and are despised at the same time. I'm certainly for out and the more I see of scaremongering and political chess manoeuvres the more determined I am to vote out. I'm not impressed by who is in or out or celebrities telling me how it will be, only facts. I know we contribute more than we receive so obviously they don't want their revenue to diminish but the contempt that clown Juncker showed this weekend was abysmal, Hollande tried to filibuster the talks - the lot of them aren't worth bothering with. They should put their own houses in order if they want a job.
The reason Cameron has got no meaningful reforms is that there are no meaningful reforms to be had. Any meaningful reform would halt the current 'direction of travel and would be unacceptable to the elites in most EU countries.If JC is in favour of reform, he's either an idiot, because it's obvious that there is no chance of reform, or, according to one interesting article I read, reckons that by supporting the EU he will drive people to vote against it, thus destroying Cameron and forcing his resignation.
Right now, the only caveat I have about voting out is that the concept is supported by an idiot (Gove) and a mass murderer (IDS) and very possibly by a ruthlessly ambitious Boris.
Yes I see that too, Will, also the dream team of Farage and Galloway did make me look twice. It's the whole thing though not the bit part players. None of them are particularly charismatic are they?
And they're all utterly irrelevant. This is nothing to do with the posturing of political pygmies. In thirty years most of them will be dead or in nursing homes but the country will still be the country.
Forget them.
I don't care whether Cameron, or Corbyn or the the ghost of Keir Hardy wants us to be in or out. I've lived through it, I've seen what the EU has actually done. I've watched them crush democratically elected governments in Italy and Greece, I've watched the Euro destroy hundreds of thousands of young lives with youth unemployment of 50% in some countries because a lot of unelected technocrats are wedded to a dream they dare not put to the vote.
Oh they are quite happy to put it to a vote Jim: as they showed in Ireland, the vote will be repeated ad infinitum until they get the result they want...But your post is exactly how I feel too.
i read a description of one of Trump's rallies yesterday by someone (sadly I have forgotten who but I think it was on Twitter) who said the rally was hard to describe, but imagine if the Nazis hadn't been interested in health and fitness
Rosemary (aiming to misbehave) wrote: "i read a description of one of Trump's rallies yesterday by someone (sadly I have forgotten who but I think it was on Twitter) who said the rally was hard to describe, but imagine if the Nazis hadn..."Terrifying, isn't it?
Will wrote: "Oh they are quite happy to put it to a vote Jim: as they showed in Ireland, the vote will be repeated ad infinitum until they get the result they want...But your post is exactly how I feel too."
My gut feeling is that if the stay in campaign wins it'll be the votes of the young who still 'believe' :-(
Rosemary (aiming to misbehave) wrote: "i read a description of one of Trump's rallies yesterday by someone (sadly I have forgotten who but I think it was on Twitter) who said the rally was hard to describe, but imagine if the Nazis hadn..."As Patti said, terrifying.
But we've seen this in the UK. The labour party looked with contempt on its working class followers and drove them to UKIP in the north. Compare this with Cameron's comments to his MPs about ignoring the opinions of party members, it's the same attitude.
We have an educated class who regard themselves as the elite. (One problem with Europe is that they've made themselves an elite) and the only opinion they have on we lesser breeds without the law is contempt.
In Europe, the whole European dream is to do away with elected government to make sure the common people don't vote for somebody who might not share 'the dream'
The mistake they made was not removing democracy faster and integrating more slowly. If they'd done it that way round people might never even have noticed.
But as it is they've left the wee folk, the thickos, the chavs, the red necks, (Interesting term that. It comes from those men who worked outside so their necks got red as they worked the land. I'm a red neck) with votes. They've hacked them off, treated them with contempt, posted pictures on twitter taking the mickey out of them and the things they love, but they forgot to take the vote off them first.
They forgot that you should muzzle a dog before you kick it or it will bit you.
My gut must be lower than yours Jim. I feel if the stay campaign wins it will be the crooked postal votes that did it.
Why is Corbyn backing the EU? By all accounts, he voted against joining the EEC, and he's been a Euro sceptic for decades. Why the U-turn now?
On another note, even an IN vote won't end the Europe problem for the Tories. If IN don't win by at least 60% to put the Europe issue to bed for a generation, then the Tory grassroots + UKIP, will do major damage to the Tory party at the 2020 general election. The SNP bounced back from a referendum defeat, I can see the Euro-Sceptics making massive gains in 2020, which is why I suspect Boris opted to join the leave campaign.
In 'murca, they're removing the vote from great chunks of the populace.Let me see if I can find some info on it.
In France they send a card and you have to take it to the polling station. They examine it and stamp it before they give you the ballot paper. It takes ages to vote.
message 2770:
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Feb 21, 2016 09:19AM)
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Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "My gut must be lower than yours Jim. I feel if the stay campaign wins it will be the crooked postal votes that did it."It's not who votes that counts, it's the person that counts the votes. - Stalin.
R.M.F wrote: "Why is Corbyn backing the EU? By all accounts, he voted against joining the EEC, and he's been a Euro sceptic for decades. Why the U-turn now?"
I wouldn't know but I did see an article which suggested he'd jump that way.
He's on the winning side if we stay in and if we go out he's still on the winning side because he can watch Cameron go
Not only that but I suspect that there will be a lot of 'leftwing' talk about the EU the only thing that protects us from the Tories.
So he can 'support' Cameron by attempting to destroy him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh5...
"Not only that but I suspect that there will be a lot of 'leftwing' talk about the EU the only thing that protects us from the Tories."I've been hearing that argument from left-wingers for years, and for me, it's a spineless act of capitulation.
If the left were confident in their arguments about union rights and workers' rights, then they would win elections and implement their ideas. The fact that they need a foreign body to win the argument for them says a lot about their moral cowardice and their mistrust of the British electorate.
Some might say that's harsh, but it's how it appears to me.
It harks back to my other comment. "The working class are so stupid they cannot recognise their true friends". So obviously we've got to go via the EU so that they can be properly looked after because they cannot look after themselves
Jim, the Tories are deliberately reducing the number of people who can vote. Presuming that many of the young may be energised by Corbyn or appalled at their (anti) social policies, they are managing to deregister thousands of them with the new voter registration schemes.I also see that Boris has decided to join Bexit.
How exactly are the managing to deregister people?
A lot of students and other young people in temporary accommodation are falling out of the re registration process
Part of the problem might be that under the old system of household registration, we had people on the registers who didn't existWe couldn't stick with the old system, it was just too corrupt and too easy to abuse in some areas
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk...
What it now means is that some people have to make more effort to make sure they're on the register. Looking on google most local authorities have a number to phone to see if you're registered and if not, they'll send you the forms.
They are supposed to be adults, they should be able to do that for themselves.
The problem Jim is that people are not doing it. Make it hard enough, and people wont bother.We need to go to compulsory registration and voting, as they do in Australia.
Will wrote: "The problem Jim is that people are not doing it. Make it hard enough, and people wont bother.We need to go to compulsory registration and voting, as they do in Australia."
You can only do that if you add another voting option - none of the above. For that reason alone it will never happen.
And if you have that and the answer is that none of the above wins, what happens then?
I don't think compulsory voting is a very good solution to anything.One of the problems we have is that so few people in the UK understand our political system, and how Parliament works in conjunction with the House of Lords.
We need to be educating kids in school about it.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Will wrote: "The problem Jim is that people are not doing it. Make it hard enough, and people wont bother.We need to go to compulsory registration and voting, as they do in Australia."
You can o..."
If None of the above wins? I'd quite like to see that, actually. Constitutionally it's no issue. The existing administration carries on whilst politicians panic.
Will wrote: "The problem Jim is that people are not doing it. Make it hard enough, and people wont bother.We need to go to compulsory registration and voting, as they do in Australia."
you say that but my local borough cannot seem to grasp the fact that we have twins turning 18 next month. They have managed to register 1 but not the other
Will wrote: "If None of the above wins? I'd quite like to see that, actually. Constitutionally it's no issue. The existing administration carries on whilst politicians panic. ..."
If 'none of the above' wins, then all other candidates are barred from standing for election for six years and may not work for a government agency or quango in a post earning more than the living wage for that period.
The election is then re-run, with the parties making sure they have candidates who can inspire the electorate, perhaps even local people who know the issues.
(You can tell I've thought about this one :-) )
I have voted for 'none of the above' for several elections now by simply scrawling it on the bottom of the ballot paper with the stubby pencil
Sorry to bang on about the French system but it's typically awkward. For the Maires' elections he /she has to have a list of 15. You can actually strike off anyone you don't want and also write in another name not necessarily anyone standing. That is so bizarre. In the next village last time the list of one candidate got in but not the man standing at the head of the list. They had to choose a Maire from the 14 voted in. We also had more votes for one chap who was Maire more than twenty years ago but still had more respect than some of the current candidates.
Michael Cargill wrote: "I don't think compulsory voting is a very good solution to anything.One of the problems we have is that so few people in the UK understand our political system, and how Parliament works in conjun..."
The information is taught in school, Mike. Doesn't mean the kids bother to learn it.
It's not taught in UK schools as far as I know. It certainly wasn't when I left in 1995 or so.And if the kids aren't paying attention, it's because the lessons aren't any good.
Yeah, yeah. Blame the teachers.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Yeah, yeah. Blame the teachers."Well they make such a bad job of potty training kids!
And insist on sending them home before parents have finished their commute forcing parents to arrange cover in between.
What do these teachers think they're there for!
When you get to the third generation of incompetent parenting, don't expect a lot
Good job Claire is a paramedic, sounds like the first aid tin might be needed. :o).
Crossrail is to be named Elizabeth Line, named after our illustrious Queen.I'm sure the groups's very own March Nash is thrilled with the news.
Jim wrote: "I think she spotted the irony"She did.
Michael Cargill wrote: "Crossrail is to be named Elizabeth Line, named after our illustrious Queen.I'm sure the groups's very own March Nash is thrilled with the news."
That Rail makes me Cross.
Michael Cargill wrote: "Crossrail is to be named Elizabeth Line, named after our illustrious Queen.I'm sure the groups's very own March Nash is thrilled with the news."
March Nash? Off with his head!
Suffice to say I will not be taking the Elizabeth Line. Mind you, I wouldn't be going to Essex under any circumstance anyway
Marc wrote: "Suffice to say I will not be taking the Elizabeth Line. Mind you, I wouldn't be going to Essex under any circumstance anyway ."Don't go saying that around Emma.
the guardian just wouldn't load for me, but I saw http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...Looks like the vast majority of them are apparently Students. Not being nasty to them but these students are supposed to be intelligent adults, local authorities have web sites to help them, and they are the generation who are supposed to be doing everything on line.
The electoral reform society were the ones pushing it, and it's been pointed out that we're the last western democracy to finally get rid of household registration, mainly because it's to easy to create fraudulent votes
To be fair, the Irish have tried austerity and for them it's worked. For the rest of the EU, they need to get rid of the bureaucracy because it's dragging them down, and the Euro, because it's the kiss of death.For us, our economy survives because of low interest rates. Even at current rates, debt interest is about the same as the money that goes to either local authorities or the devolved administrations and very slightly behind what we spend on education.
When interest rates go up to their more usual levels, government is so screwed
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Problem is, the sort of improvements to Europe that would convince people to drift from being ..."
As most people here know, I'm a Scottish independence supporter, and no fan of the Conservative party, but I cannot believe how spineless these cabinet members are.
The Tories have been banging on about Europe for decades, but when push comes to shove, they fall into line behind Cameron.
Where's their principals? If they had been open and upfront about their pro-EU stance for years, I could respect that, but to sit on the fence, to hedge your bets in order to win votes in a GE, then have an about turn when you get elected, disgusts me.
I don't like Michael Gove, but I can respect the man for putting his principals before his party.