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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: ""once people become politicised they never go back". That is a nonsense. Look at party membership figures, paltry. Yes Corbynmania has seen a surge, mainly among the young. Once they all get their ..."I speak from personal experience, and I believe that the effect of the EU referendum will energise the English people in a way not seen for generations."
I'm afraid you've got a little over excited there, RMF. As someone who voted in the first referendum on the Common Market and also the Voting referendum earlier in this decade, the chances of getting the electorate excited about politics is about as likely as getting them interested in share ownership.
Yes we had a referendum back in 2011. I think most people looked at it, decided they didn't like it and just voted against it.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: ""once people become politicised they never go back". That is a nonsense. Look at party membership figures, paltry. Yes Corbynmania has seen a surge, mainly among the young. Once they a..."for about 20 minutes maybe
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: ""once people become politicised they never go back". That is a nonsense. Look at party membership figures, paltry. Yes Corbynmania has seen a surge, mainly among the youn..."Town hall meetings, campaign groups popping up all over the place, and the fact that each vote counts in such a historically important referendum, will, I believe, contribute to a great awakening.
Nobody gives a monkey's about the main parties these days, because they all seem to sing from the same hymn sheet anyway, but a crucial referendum?
Whole different ball game.
Jim wrote: "Yes we had a referendum back in 2011. I think most people looked at it, decided they didn't like it and just voted against it."Correction - most people looked at it, saw it as a Nick Clegg vanity project, and decided to stick it to Clegg for selling Lib Dem voters down the river.
Big difference.
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: ""once people become politicised they never go back". That is a nonsense. Look at party membership figures, paltry. Yes Corbynmania has seen a surge, mainly among the youn..."You old cynic :)
Regardless of which side of the fence you're sitting, it important for democracy that as many people vote on this crucial issue. Hopefully, an 80% turnout, or thereabouts, will be the order of the day.
R.M.F wrote: "Correction - most people looked at it, saw it as a Nick Clegg vanity project, and decided to stick it to Clegg for selling Lib Dem voters down the river. Big difference. ..."
Same with EU, most people made up their minds long ago, there's a few drifting in the middle. By the time the voting day comes round most people will be at the stage of telling them lobbying to 'go forth and multiply' because they're sick of them
Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticed one organiser tweeted from the departure lounge of Heathrow. Anarchists these days!
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticed one organiser tweeted from the departure lounge of Heathrow. Anarchists these days! ..."I shudder to think what my mate Sagger would have made of modern anarchists!
Many years ago I remember a teacher using marxist class analysis to prove to a bunch of men that teachers were members of the proletariat.
Then one of them quietly said, "Let's see the palms of your hands."
wouldn't they have had calluses from all the canings they meted out?
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticed one organiser tweeted from the departur..."Stig Abel & Carole Malone did on the Sky News Paper Review last night. And it's true. However, it's too easy to use as an argument to detract from some real issues.
Just because the 2011 rioters were stealing Blackberries to organise riots in order to steal more Blackberries, doesn't mean there weren't real issues raised by events.
The Russian plane bomb, why aren't people questioning their consumers' human right to have a sunny holiday? Volkswagen scandal & now whichever car company are issuing a product recall because the dashboards catch fire, again ask yourselves do we need cars given what it does to the environment that we put in place half-baked rules on emissions. How deep do we want to take the analysis of what we consume?
Jim wrote: "Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticed one organi..."I think people have forgotten the true meaning of what an anarchist is or was.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticed one organiser tweeted from the departur..."Fighting the system from within :)
R.M.F wrote: "Jim wrote: "Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "Anybody else remark on the irony (hypocrisy) of the Million Mask Marchers taking selfies etc on their smartphones and their nice Nike trainers etc. I noticeI think people have forgotten the true meaning of what an anarchist is or was. ..."
I haven't... read my Proudhomme, Kropotkin & Bakunin in my late teens
We all do Marc, then we realise we have to make a living and grow up in a less than perfect world.A bit flippant/ tongue in cheek but how exactly can you organise any form of anarchy?
.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "We all do Marc, then we realise we have to make a living and grow up in a less than perfect world.A bit flippant/ tongue in cheek but how exactly can you organise any form of anarchy?
."
Exactly. I thought organisation went against the entire ethos of anarchy! :)
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "We all do Marc, then we realise we have to make a living and grow up in a less than perfect world.A bit flippant/ tongue in cheek but how exactly can you organise any form of anarchy?
."
no leadership and elites go against the concept of anarchy. Anarchy does not equate to chaos, although most of its modern day proponents seem to think it does.
So for example, if you had no politicians but the people legislated through online plebiscite, there would be no leaders but plenty of lawmaking through the will of the people. You would still need a civil service to put the laws into action - maybe some would see that as a leadership class, certainly it forms an executive of sorts. But they are the ones responding to the will of the people not making the laws in the first place.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "We all do Marc, then we realise we have to make a living and grow up in a less than perfect world.A bit flippant/ tongue in cheek but how exactly can you organise any form of anarchy?
."
Anarchy organises itself collectively, not through imposition from above.
Marc wrote: "Anarchy organises itself collectively, not through imposition from above."https://youtu.be/fxGqcCeV3qk
Bit like the co-op then?
R.M.F wrote: "I think people have forgotten the true meaning of what an anarchist is or was. ..."I'm sure Solzhenitsyn mentions a Russian anarchist who bombed a meeting of other anarchists who were meeting to organise.
He felt that they had rather missed the point
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Nov 06, 2015 10:03AM)
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R.M.F wrote: "Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "We all do Marc, then we realise we have to make a living and grow up in a less than perfect world.A bit flippant/ tongue in cheek but how exactly can you organise any ..."
The Urban Dictionary definition of Anarchy:
Mostly seen now adays when posers write it on there [sic] bags or hands. They never have any idea what it means, and probably have no interest in politics whatsoever.
person 1 "oh my god ANARCHY MAN I HATE THE GOVERNMENT!!!!"
person 2 "shut up"
Planet of Exile A quite brilliant depiction of an anarchist society as it is intended Ursula le Guin - and why it was hated by the authoritarian societies, such as ours
the only 2 anarchist experiments both crushed by Stalin, in the Ukraine & catalonia
The polce car torched by the rioters...I've now seen pictures of it previously being towed into that parking spot as it was unfit to be driven.
Hummmm.
Let the proles get it out of their system once a year. Makes them more malleable.
Not only that but it means that the money comes out of the insurance company rather than from the speed cameras
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Let the proles get it out of their system once a year. Makes them more malleable."I suspect most are Trustafarians rather than proles.
True prole rioters nick stuff from crappy High Street stores, like tracksuits
Jim wrote: "Not only that but it means that the money comes out of the insurance company rather than from the speed cameras"Unfortunately, Police cars are not insured. They are covered by public liability.
As my daughter's headmistress said to me about the county set pupils, we have the crème de la crème here or as we know them the thick and the clotted.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "As my daughter's headmistress said to me about the county set pupils, we have the crème de la crème here or as we know them the thick and the clotted."LOL!
Love it, Lynne!I'll be using that!
Given my experience the class ceiling is middle class people trying to hold others down. Because of the work I've done over the years I've dealt with people right across the social spectrum.I reckon it all boils down to a chorus I remember from a folk song from probably about 50 years back
Doctors and teachers exams must pass
If ere they wish to rise about the working class
But if perchance
They just scrape through
I'll give you ten to one that they look down on you.
Bet this doesn't make the telegraph, Geoff.How stupid is this man?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...
you don't expect him to have a grasp of the details do you Will?
Probably as stupid as anyone else in that position, Will. All transmit and no receive.
Will wrote: "Bet this doesn't make the telegraph, Geoff.How stupid is this man?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...-..."
It's on the front page of the FT tomorrow
And page 20 of The Sun or Daily Fail...
This story made the Today programme this morning on Radio 4.
Only 3 days after the Independent then...What was their spin on it?
pretty neutral report of it in Telegraph today, gave as much coverage to the leader of the council as it did to Cameron and added in Labour MPs joking that another Tory MP has joined them protesting about the effects of austerity
Will wrote: "Only 3 days after the Independent then...What was their spin on it?"
Pretty neutral, just saying that there was a "difference of opinion" over cuts.
Marc wrote: "oh my aching sides..."Well unfortunately sense of humour was never a prime characteristic in MP selection
true dat.I'm always amused when MPs go on "Have I Got News For You" imagining they can rival the professional comedians in the laughter stakes. One of the few who always seems to emerge unscathed is Alan Johnson, but the rest of them end up with egg on their face. Sadiq Khan, prospective Labour Mayor Of London, looked particularly odious on the show
I can remember Clarkson saying, after hosting the show, that he had been seriously intimidated by how fast paul Merson & Ian Hislop were, working entirely without scripts or rehearsal
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That is not normally regarded as a good thing.
Especially by thinking Scots politicians who realise that not only might the English leave the union ..."
What would England take with her?
If she wants the nuclear weapons, I'd happily dump them in the Thames tomorrow morning.
The UN security council seat? England was always getting that anyway if Scotland left.
EU membership? Take it. I'd much prefer Scotland did a Norway and kept the EU at arm's length.
If you're hinting at what I think you're hinting at i.e English taxpayers subsidising Scotland, and that drying up, then I'm more than satisfied by data I've been reading recently.
Data that tells me Scotland has been a net contributor to the Union for decades.
The finances of an independent Scotland are more than capable of sustaining us.
As someone who is an unashamed Anglophile, I wish England all the best should she ever decide to leave the Union and/or EU, and would hope to continue the close ties and goodwill that has existed between Scotland and England for decades.