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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
You're right PamAs a rule of thumb you can reckon that each generation can eat entirely organic food and spend no higher proportion of their income on food than their parents did buying conventional. (Obviously breaks down if you go too far back because there was no organic market as such)
The difference between 2003 and 2011 is that we had in 2007/8 the first major increase in world prices for a number of years. Wheat went from £90 to about £200, basically because the world didn't grow as much as it was eating and for a couple of years we lived out of the store.
The price has fallen back now because we've had a couple of decent harvests, but it was that rise in the price of grain that largely contributed to the 'Arab Spring'. Mainly because a lot of Arab governments kept their populations sweet with massively subsidised basic foodstuffs to make up for the lack of democracy, justice etc.
They couldn't afford to increase the amount of subsidy and price riots and food riots escalated as it was realised that these regimes had indeed failed and needed replacing
Good explanation, Jim. But what about the French farmers? Aren't they a mutinous bunch who have manipulated CAP for their own benefits? How can they be better than British farmers?
Or is that Daily Mail propaganda?
The difference in French farms in 50 years is amazing. Whether it's down to EU subsidies or getting back on its feet after the war or both I don't know but the farms are really impressive. The French 'peasant' mentality is notoriously anarchic. We have some villages near here who are communist and proud of it and others National Front, It's a real melting pot of politics.
The population of France and the UK is roughly the same, but France has 28 times as much land, making land prices much cheaper. About 3 times as many of the French population work in agriculture and they are both anarchistic and militant, enthusiastically blocking roads/ports in their protests if their government doesn't give them whatever they want. Added to which, the French seem to regard the whole of the natural world as a larder to be feasted upon with little regard for animal welfare - two examples being the production of foie gras (banned in the UK for years) and eating the ortolan. Ortolans are rare, tiny songbirds, trapped in nets during their migration, kept in dark boxes and fattened up, then drowned in armagnac and eaten whole (including the bones and all internal organs). Although the commercial trapping has been banned across Europe, 'private' consumption still continues in France and French chefs are campaigning for the ban to be lifted.France is such a beautiful country. It's wasted on the French.
"France is such a beautiful country. It's wasted on the French."That should be the 11th commandment: Thou shall not waste France on the French :)
R.M.F wrote: "Good explanation, Jim. But what about the French farmers? Aren't they a mutinous bunch who have manipulated CAP for their own benefits? How can they be better than British farmers?
Or is that D..."
Not disagreeing with anything Lynne or BJ have said but there's other things as well. A lot of it political.
After WW2 Europe needed rebuilding (including this country) and decisions had to be made. It was decided in much of Europe that the way to go forward was to encourage farmers to form co-ops.
When I say 'encourage' I mean that in France in some areas if you fall out with your coop, boy are you so totally screwed. The coops control most things, you probably even bank with them. (Because they'll pay your milk cheque into your account in their bank)
In the UK we went down a different rout. In 1933 the National Government under Ramsey MacDonald had formed the Milk Marketing Board, and because it worked, the government went down the marketing board route to control all farm output and prices.
When we joined the EU the marketing boards didn't fit. Most of them were pretty moribund because they were over bureaucratic and useless and ignored anyway. But the MMB soldiered on and was pretty good considering.
The EU (probably the EEC at the time) basically issued an ultimatum, that the MMB had to cease or become a coop.
In a vote of farmers over 95% voted for the coop and so it became a coop.
Then succeeding governments of both parties proceeded to dismantle the MMB by any means they could think of, mainly because they wanted to drive prices down in a time when inflation was an issue. Because the supermarkets were simultaneously mopping up the milk market this played into their hands and we're at the place we are now.
With regard to France, remember also they have the Code Napoleon. This means that when you die, your farm is left in pretty fixed proportions to all your heirs. But because most of the heirs don't want to farm, they'll rent out their shares to the one who does. This continues down the generations and all sorts of people are small scale agricultural landlords.
Add to this that French government legislation links agricultural rents to profitability, so suddenly a fair chunk of the urban population have a vested interest in farming being profitable.
So when you see gendarmes idly standing by watching farmers demonstrate. He's not just a cousin of one of the farmers, he's also the landlord.
There was a tale told that at one time under de Gaulle that there was a serious problem with over-production of courgettes.
Breton farmers rioted and de Gaulle decided to get tough and sent in the Paras.
Then it was discovered that Breton farmers tended to have large families and a lot of the lads had to seek work elsewhere. A lot joined the army and navy and the really adventurous ones joined ‘’Les Paras’. And these were all now sitting at home, eating mum’s home cooking while Dad cleaned their submachinegun for them and told them tales of his days in the Resistance.
Complicated place France
But yes they have a culture which appreciates food and dining and doesn't just buy cheap rubbish to stuff in the freezer to bring out when you're sitting watching telly
You've both nailed it for me, with your comments, they are spot on, The practice of eating ortolans is so disgusting its traditional to eat them under a serviette (on the head of the diner). Gluttony at its most disgusting. I understand that Mitterrand had some as his last meal. One year my elderly Italian neighbour who I could see from my balcony was happily plucking larks and offered me some. I politely refused. They still shoot indiscriminately overhead from fixed points at passing migratory birds, and la chasse is also an association with deep roots and many members. The Bretons are also a bit different they have quite a strong Celtic link. They successfully stopped a proposed charge per mile on vehicles recently. The closure of two factories, one a local chicken producer with a very large loss of jobs and another fish related made them revolt violently, setting fire to the overhead gantries which had the monitors and cameras which were being set up to automatically count and generate toll revenue.
Jim wrote: "But yes they have a culture which appreciates food and dining and doesn't just buy cheap rubbish to stuff in the freezer to bring out when you're sitting watching telly"They must love the Americans :)
I don't think France will ever forgive the USA for liberating it in WW2 :)
It's a good job you're over there doing your missionary work, Lynne.
Jim wrote: "But yes they have a culture which appreciates food and dining and doesn't just buy cheap rubbish to stuff in the freezer to bring out when you're sitting watching telly"and they have lots of arts, politics & philosophy programmes on that telly, not reality and talentless shows like we do.
I'll be interested in what Lynne has to say about the quality of French television. I vaguely recall a French 'reality' series attracting a lot of adverse publicity when a (or was it two?) participant died.
The arts programme are good but it's gradually being taken over by cheap USA crime drama on terrestrial tv. A friend who is quite an astute observer of politics here was telling my husband this morning that he believes that the situation in Calais and Provence Alps Côte d'Azur region with migrants is being let run wild deliberately and will be a crucial part in the elections next year. They are currently both UMP. The mayor of Calais is out of her depth and not up to the job but it's suiting the socialist government as it may well turn National Front, it very nearly got in there last time, also our region here. That gets rid of Estrosi here who is a very ambitious man. If the national front get in the president will rally France against them at any cost, dividing his opposition. They came second in a lot of areas last time in the first round and were dismissed as a protest vote.
R.M.F wrote: "They must love the Americans :)I don't think France will ever forgive the USA for liberating it in WW2 :)
..."
It's the second time in the last couple of days I've been reminded of Oscar Wilde's quote
"They say that when good Americans die they go to Paris.
"Really, And where do bad Americans go to when they die?"
"They go to America,"
Marc wrote: "and they have lots of arts, politics & philosophy programmes on that telly, not reality and talentless shows like we do. ..."
They regard philosophy as a serious subject.
An opinion no historian could ever share :-)
they treat their philosophers like rock stars
R.M.F wrote: "I don't think France will ever forgive the USA for liberating it in WW2 :)..."I visited Normandy, including St. Maire Eglise, in 1994 (late September, after all the 50th anniversary stuff). People there were still expressing gratitude. I have to say, I've visited France a few times and always found people to be exceedingly friendly and hospitable. Generally they will say something like, "You're not rude like most Americans." If you're friendly to people, generally they follow suit. Now, Parisians can be a bit icy, but then, they're that way to each other.
As for food choices that are considered repulsive by outsiders to a culture, I think we all live in glass houses where that is concerned.
The chap my husband was talking to, his father was a professor of philosophy, it's a compulsory subject at BAC. I have more French friends and get on better with my old French neighbour's than I do my young Welsh ones. I love it here and could happily stay if it wasn't for family ties. Everyone hates Parisians!
I think that some people forget that Paris isn't France.Most of these people are Parisians ;-)
Jim wrote: "I think that some people forget that Paris isn't France.Most of these people are Parisians ;-)"
In the same way London isn't Great Britain.
Bit of a long story, I went in the village shop where everyone says bonjour Messieurs/dames etc in entering. I stood in the queue and asked for some pâté and pointed to the one I wanted, there was nearly a full dish. He didn't blink just told me he didn't have any. I felt a bit miffed and didn't know quite how to react in the face of a blatant lie. I knew I hadn't upset him but he brought out a tray from underneath and suggested I try this instead. He said he was saving the pâté for the Parisians. He is a real 'character' and feeling a bit snubbed I agreed. The door opened and a very well dressed woman strode in past all the queue and headed to the back of the shop, nose in the air. The butcher wiped his hands , came from behind the counter and shouted "Bonjour Madame". She had to acknowledge him and uttered a stiff Bonjour. He went all smarmy and asked if she was from Paris, she nodded and he suggested she try his speciality pâté. I felt quite hurt, but he winked at me. When I went in later he told me the pâté wasn't fit for his regulars.Another time I walked in, said bonjour as he was busy with his back to me I asked what was in the brown sack as I could see little black hooves sticking out, without turning he replied "Dobermann".
Sounds like a shop I'd love!
Brilliant Lynne, it's good to see that retail characters are alive and well over there.
We had wars when the baker started selling trays of cooked meat. The butcher is also a baker and has a bakers shop in the next village, so he started bringing his bread too. It got quite nasty. I was in there one day when the butcher, Achilles, took a phone call, threw off his apron and told all the customers to leave a note of what they had and last one drop the catch on the door, he called his dogs, always outside the shop and went. He said there was a wild boar in a garden and he was off to shoot it.
Strangely, for such a gastronomic nation, the French haven't taken to haggis or Irn-Bru :)
You'd think you'd be able to get wonderful poutine there, eh?
their cheese, chips and gravy's probably pretty good as well
I don't think the French have got the hang of making a nice cheese.
The rapid growth of McDonald's and other fast food places amazed me. Google or Trip adviser Cabris and you'll see the village/restaurants etc. There's 6 restaurants, 3 cafes/bars. Not a bad balance for a little village.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I don't think the French have got the hang of making a nice cheese."oh I don't know, their goat's cheese is far superior to ours.
Marc wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "I don't think the French have got the hang of making a nice cheese."oh I don't know, their goat's cheese is far superior to ours."
Brie, Camembert, Gruyere, Roquefort to name some of the over 350 cheeses. Most of the ones I've tried are delicious.
I see I'm gonna have to hit you both over the head with my sarcasm stick.
I'm still concussed from the last time
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I see I'm gonna have to hit you both over the head with my sarcasm stick."How will we know the difference?
You wouldn't like France Patti, there's no bacon!!!
Anyway, you'll have to wind this thread up now. Jeremy Corbyn has announced, "I say to all activists - cut out the personal abuse, cut out the cyber-bullying"Facebook's going to be awfully quiet.
But if he achieves it, good on him
I'll give it a couple of days, tops.
No that's it, finished. We're to accept that we might disagree with people but we still have to be civilised. We'll have to find some more cute cat pictures to fill facebook with :-)
Was the lack of bacon in France I don't believe.JC, if he did say that, and at this point I'm only believing things attributed to him if I actually hear it coming from his mouth, good on him.
He seems to be doing very well without ripping anyone apart.
One doesn't have to stand on anyone's back to make oneself bigger.
It was in his party leader's speech. He said a lot of other stuff to, but he made quite a big thing of this.To be fair to him, he's not been in the habit of personal attacks and even his attacks against 'tory scum' in the past generally have been very measured and in 'parliamentary language'
It's true. They don't have bacon, never mind all the rumours that the labour bots won't spam you if you don't agree with them. Priorities pfffft.You can have bits (lardons) bresaiola , and lovely smoked raw ham but rashers and streaky, forget it unless you go to an expat shop.
France finally gets something to recommend it to me, then
Jim wrote: "It was in his party leader's speech. He said a lot of other stuff to, but he made quite a big thing of this.To be fair to him, he's not been in the habit of personal attacks and even his attacks ..."
There will be a time when even the rabid right wing press have to start reporting what Corbyn actually says: at which point will the man's fundamental decency start to change the opinions of ordinary people? Or will the ragtop (which now seems to include the Telegraph, whose general standards of journalism have fallen terribly in the last 3 years) papers try and maintain the attack?
Jim wrote: "It was in his party leader's speech."From what I've been hearing, a lot of it wasn't his, but stuff rejected by other former leaders.
There was a section taken from a 2011 blog post by a former advisor to Dennis Healey, who has offered stuff to every leader since then: I think it's indicative of Corbyn's style that he actually listens to other people, a rare trait in a politician these days (in any party)
or that he's a complete throwback to 1980s local government Labour (GLC etc) and the only leader whose views were matched by the speech he was offered dating from back then
UK Amazon Kindle Forum
Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
That Old Ace in the Hole (other topics)
More...
Hunger and Food Poverty in Britain http://www.frankfield.co.uk/upload/docs/Fact%20Sheet%201%20-%20Expenditure.pdf, in 1953, it was 33.3% but had dwindled to 16% by 2003. It went up slightly to 17% in 2011, the first rise in post-WWII Britain. This is the average of course; the percentage in low income households is much higher than in better off households.