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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
I don't think it was an isolated case of poorly drafted legislation
I was listening to this the other night and I think you guys would find it interesting.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b066w659
That was an interesting listen, actually.The issue is too big for most people to comprehend properly.
What sort of mickey mouse democracy are we running in the UK? I ask because I've just seen the list of people selected for the house of lords, and it's the usual collection of lackeys, lickspittles, has-beens and people who shouldn't be in charge of a bucket of horse piss, never mind making laws that affect the rest of us. One of Duncan Smith's mates is getting a peerage, the guy who claimed for a moat at taxpayers' expense is getting a peerage, and Alastair Darling, is getting one for services to the UK during the independence referendum.
30 years ago, Darling was campaigning for the Lords to be abolished. Another working class hero fighting the system from within.
At this rate, labour with 228 peers, will overtake their 232 elected MPs...
What a fucking travesty of a democracy we have in this country...
Apologies for the foul language.
No apology necessary. Actually, I applaud your restraint.
message 1458:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Aug 28, 2015 11:04AM)
(new)
Patti (baconater) wrote: "No apology necessary. Actually, I applaud your restraint."
No, his restraints appear to have slipped off.
Nurse!!!
Oh good grief.I love how much you people make me laugh!
message 1462:
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Aug 28, 2015 11:14AM)
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Emma (Queen of the weirdo's) wrote: "Here"I can't think of anyone better qualified to put the restraints back.
Almost 900 peers passing judgement on the rest of us. The Lib Dems, who've been promising to abolish the Lords since Julius Caesar's day, have 4 times as many peers as they do MPs...
If Corbyn was serious about changing Britain, he could tell Labour peers not to turn up. That would be fun.
Unfortunately, I think Corbyn, like the rest of them, knows where his bread's buttered.
God almighty, no wonder I have high blood pressure! :)
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Emma (Queen of the weirdo's) wrote: "Here"I can't think of anyone better qualified to put the restraints back."
Is a particular skill of mine ;-)
R.M.F wrote: "God almighty, no wonder I have high blood pressure! :)"You want high blood pressure, get a subscription to Private Eye.
Oh, speaking of which.Can't get Private Eye delivered here any longer. We've lost the mailbag.
Bastards.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Oh, speaking of which.Can't get Private Eye delivered here any longer. We've lost the mailbag.
Bastards."
Not allowing subversive literature into Baku? Who'd have thought it.
That's a shame. Any suggestions on how to solve the problem? Stuff 'em into racing cars or athletes shorts?
Naw, not that. BP is stopping the mailbag from the UK. Cost cutting measures.
Damn drop in oil prices.
We can still try to get it delivered. Will just cost a bomb in postage and the chances of it getting to us will be very slim.
Things like this are what make people leave hardship posts.
When does your current subscription expire, Patti?
Dave sez soon. I'm glad we hadn't just renewed.
I wish Private Eye did an electronic edition.
Yes, that'd be good.Dave's gonna have the last few delivered to the flat, then cancel it.
Shame.
Can the Tories bring the UK into more disrepute internationally? Yes, they can...http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...
Will wrote: "Can the Tories bring the UK into more disrepute internationally? Yes, they can...http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/......"
Am I the only person who feels that the figures for 2011 to 2014 cannot be taken in context without the figures from 2000 onward. For all we know, this might be an improvement.
hence they want to scrap the Human Rights Act...
Marc wrote: "hence they want to scrap the Human Rights Act..."Which is irrelevant to the issue
The issue is that we now have snapshot which shows a particular situation. But is that situation getting worse, getting better or remaining much the same?
Marc wrote: "hence they want to scrap the Human Rights Act..."Not without triggering a constitutional crisis in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "hence they want to scrap the Human Rights Act..."Not without triggering a constitutional crisis in Scotland and Northern Ireland."
the EU vote might do that sooner
Marc wrote: "the EU vote might do that sooner "Which is true but hardly a problem. If the English vote 55% to leave that would be 29,155,500 for and 23,854,275 against leaving, then the difference in favour is such that if the entire population of Scotland voted to stay in, the vote would still be to pull out.
but the constitutional crisis would be exciting
Marc wrote: "but the constitutional crisis would be exciting"What's exciting is that Scotland would be buggered either way. If the national vote say leave, Scotland would have to leave too, even if they have another referendum for independence, as they would need a unanimous vote from the other EU members to be allowed to join and, as I've said previously in this thread, they have no chance of getting that.
For the English I don't think there'd be that much of a crisis. We're off, if the Scots want to come, they can come.Interestingly I saw an article in one of the papers where someone has analysed the various opinion polls and attitude surveys, and Scotland isn't actually that different to England on most things.
The Welsh on the other hand apparently differ on more issues from the English and Scots than the English and Scots do from each other
Jim wrote: "Marc wrote: "the EU vote might do that sooner "Which is true but hardly a problem. If the English vote 55% to leave that would be 29,155,500 for and 23,854,275 against leaving, then the differenc..."
It's one of the benefits of living in a partnership of equals. :)
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Marc wrote: "but the constitutional crisis would be exciting"What's exciting is that Scotland would be buggered either way. If the national vote say leave, Scotland would have to leave too, even..."
And as I've said previously, that's complete hogwash.
One of the more interesting issues that arose during the independence referendum was, as you say, EU membership. There was always the the assumption that Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership, but this overlooked the elephant in the room:
England.
After all, if Scotland left the UK, the UK would no longer exist. Would England, a 'new' nation, automatically inherit the UK's obligations and treaty rights? A lot of experts didn't think so.
Jim wrote: "For the English I don't think there'd be that much of a crisis. We're off, if the Scots want to come, they can come.Interestingly I saw an article in one of the papers where someone has analysed ..."
What if Wales, NI, and Scotland say Yes to staying, but England says they want out?
That would really test the 'family' of nations ethos.
R.M.F wrote: "Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Marc wrote: "After all, if Scotland left the UK, the UK would no longer exist. Would England, a 'new' nation, automatically inherit the UK's obligations and treaty rights? A lot of experts didn't think so."If Scotland leaves the UK - not England - THE UK, then they become a new sovereign state. The membership of the EU stays with the remains of the UK. Just because Scotland leaves, does not mean that the UK no longer exists.
However, because Scotland is a newly created sovereign state, it will not be a member of the EU. This has been confirmed by the EU themselves. Bring on your evidence RMF, or shut up.
The clue's in the name, Geoff. The United Kingdom is a union between two kingdoms: Scotland and England. If one leaves, then is it still a United Kingdom? If England decided to leave, then AFAIC, then the UK ceases to exist as well.
Let's look at the flip side of the argument for a minute. Say an English version of the SNP sprung up, and say that party won a majority of MPs, had a referendum, and the people of England voted to go independent.
Would the UK exist? Would England inherit all the rights and treaties accrued by the UK?
RMF, please do not forget that Wales still groans beneath the heel of the Sais oppressor: so even if Scotland severed the Act of Union, there would still be a UK...
Will wrote: "RMF, please do not forget that Wales still groans beneath the heel of the Sais oppressor: so even if Scotland severed the Act of Union, there would still be a UK..."I think Northern Ireland could be the key to this due to the Good Friday agreement.
It is still a United Kingdom, if there is more than one member.There does not appear to be much popular feeling for Welsh independence, is there Will?
I think it's equally split really, Geoff.There's overwhelming support for the basic idea, but a very great deal less for the practical application of the idea, as most of us recognise we are just too small a country to be economically viable outside of the UK.
(Unless we were to declare ourselves an international tax haven of course)
Now there's an Idea, Will.
R.M.F wrote: "It's one of the benefits of living in a partnership of equals. :) ..."exactly, the vote of one English elector should be worth the same as the vote of one Scots elector or one Welsh or Northern Irish elector
R.M.F wrote: "What if Wales, NI, and Scotland say Yes to staying, but England says they want out?
That would really test the 'family' of nations ethos. ..."
Not really, if you are talking about the UK, then you just tot up the total votes and see which side won.
Otherwise you could get the nonsense of a situation where England had a majority of several million to leave and the other three had very close votes with majority of a handful on the side of staying. This would mean that a couple of hundred votes on the fringe outweighted several million English votes
R.M.F wrote: "Would the UK exist? Would England inherit all the rights and treaties accrued by the UK? ..."well according to SNP politicans we can pick and chose as it suits us :-)
There is only two kingdoms in the UK - Scotland and Wales. From a legal standpoint, I have no idea what Wales and Northern Ireland are, in this regard.
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "What if Wales, NI, and Scotland say Yes to staying, but England says they want out?
That would really test the 'family' of nations ethos. ..."
Not really, if you are talking about..."
But this gives people like myself grist to the mill that the UK is nothing more than greater England...
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But in that case it has occurred to me that it only passed because it was obviously unenforceable