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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
Yes my husband worked in a hospital as an accountant by day and helped to stoke the boilers some nights as he was already in the building. Those were the days, people wouldn't believe it now.
For those who don't get them: two emails this morning.Liz Kendall's team sent me this:
The general election result was a cruel blow to everyone in our party. Every day I think about all of the people that we could have helped in power, and who will suffer under this Tory government.
I'm standing for Labour leader because I love our party too much to see us lose again. If you're backing me, let me know:
Yes - I'm voting for Liz Kendall for Labour leader
Labour is the greatest champion of equality and opportunity this country has even known. Over one hundred years, our movement has created and saved the NHS, introduced the Equal Pay Act and civil partnerships, transformed rights at work and secured the dignity of the minimum wage.
I believe that the best days for Labour - and for the country - lie ahead of us. We can build a real living wage society, give public sector workers the pay rise they need, revolutionise early years education and put power in the hands of communities and individuals, rather than hoarding it in Westminster.
This is the country we can build -
VOTE LIZ
compare and contrast
http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/standi...
And what jobs can retain the community skills that built trident?More bluidy call centres :-(
Well we don't actually build Trident, Jim, do we? The Americans, who will take the majority of the money involved, do that.Barrow works on the submarines, not the missiles, doesn't it? If, as I reckon, Corbyn is in favour of strengthening the conventional services as opposed to throwing 100 million quid down the toilet on Trident, that might just create a few jobs.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: For a large part of it, they were. I remember queuing for bread, working in the dark by candlelight and torches. It really was a crazy decade. "
Which is why I believe it is vital to prosecute accused establishment & celebrity paedophiles even if they are dead. We need to fully round the view of the 1970s
Will wrote: "Well we don't actually build Trident, Jim, do we? The Americans, who will take the majority of the money involved, do that.Barrow works on the submarines, not the missiles, doesn't it? If, as I ..."
Trident is a system, needing missiles, satellites and submarines. It depends on how you define the majority of money involved, but I see no sign that any Labour politician has his eye on purchasing conventional submarines, or even conventional warships.
We'd be paying to use the satellites as part of Nato anyway, although according to http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2...
Corbyn wants to leave NATO. (I'm not necessarily believing the article, because we seem to have a nasty left wing civil war going on at the moment and the Guardian is a player)
Ah, if we believed everything that the papers say JC wants, we'd be knee deep in contradictions in minutes.Sadly Jim you are quite right, The Guardian is decidedly a player in the scrap having taken a certain position, to the dismay of much of its readership. I don't think it's a left wing civil war though: it's between the moderates in Labour and the right wing of the party. Most of Corbyn's ideas would have been considered the centre ground 20 years ago, strangely
Oh, and my voting card has arrived.Bet you lot can't guess my first preference.
Marc wrote: "Which is why I believe it is vital to prosecute accused establishment & celebrity paedophiles even if they are dead. We need to fully round the view of the 1970s "Really? From what I've seen there seems to be a witch hunt for anyone in public life during the 70's. That itself appears to be without any basis except for a collection of people looking to make a buck.
The 70's was a different world, as the past often is. To go digging around for evidence on the flimsiest of pretenses and make false accusations is outrageous to those who are not here to defend themselves and for those who can.
Will wrote: "Oh, and my voting card has arrived.Bet you lot can't guess my first preference."
None of the above?
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Really? From what I've seen there seems to be a witch hunt for anyone in public life during the 70's. That itself appears to be without any basis except for a collection of people looking to make a buck.The 70's was a different world, as the past often is. To go digging around for evidence on the flimsiest of pretenses and make false accusations is outrageous to those who are not here to defend themselves and for those who can.
"
Stuart Hall, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter, Greville Janner, Max Clifford...
so i'm just going to leave your statement as the preposterous notion that it is
Marc wrote: "Stuart Hall, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter, Greville Janner, Max Clifford...so i'm just going to leave your statement as the preposterous notion that it is "
Cliff Richard and Edward Heath so far. You sir, are the preposterous one.
sorry, are none of the names I mentioned not convicted paedophiles? Save Jimmy Savile who escaped court and Janner who is currently in the dock.There is also a raft of lesser known celebs, local radio DJs and the like from that era who have been convicted. As to the alleged Whitehall ring, that is being fought tooth and nail against ever coming to light. Lost dossiers and all that.
Marc wrote: "Will wrote: "Oh, and my voting card has arrived.Bet you lot can't guess my first preference."
None of the above?"
None of the above is the fastest growing political party in the UK during the last 20 years. :)
Hard to believe that Neil Kinnock got more votes in '92 than Blair or Cameron ever did.
I've voted none of the above on and off since I was old enough to vote. Wish i had this time round having wasted it on labour in a London Tory marginal with a sitting MP who has both been up for Parliamentary standards for his expenses and all over the Daily Mail for his marital infidelity. Still couldn't unseat him
Marc wrote: "sorry, are none of the names I mentioned not convicted paedophiles? Save Jimmy Savile who escaped court and Janner who is currently in the dock.There is also a raft of lesser known celebs, local ..."
You are making your comment based upon six cases, one of which is still not concluded, so therefore Janner is still innocent.
For all you know the five convicted are the low hanging fruit and that further convictions of other individuals are unlikely.
You have no metrics on how many people have been investigated and how many are yet to be prosecuted.
You have no metrics on how many of these will actually be convicted.
There is also a raft of lesser known celebs, local radio DJs and the like from that era who have been convicted.
Where exactly are this "raft" of lesser known celebrities, radio DJs and like that have been convicted? You are aware that raft is not a numerical constant, but a form of exaggeration used by the gutter press?
Time you started producing some facts instead of reading the Daily Mail.
I don't read any newspaper.What metrics do you have for suggesting this is a case of a few bad low hanging apples? If the CPS decide not to pursue dead people for reasons of cost, or a feeling of redundancy since they're deceased (rather than a lack of evidence *), that will suppress the figures.
The other, more important reason to pursue cases is for the victims. Their voices have been silenced and ignored up to this point and I believe are entitled to justice and their cases being heard in court.
* the testimony of victims is a large chunk of evidence. Of course it needs to be corroborated by other types of evidence, as in the case of Savile's driver Ray Teret, jailed for 25 years, one of those local radio DJs I referred to. Chris Denning was another one and a previously convicted sex offender before the 49 charges uncovered by Yewtree.
Marc wrote: "If the CPS decide not to pursue dead people for reasons of cost, or a feeling of redundancy since they're deceased (rather than a lack of evidence *), that will suppress the figures."You have no evidence to support that contention.
The other, more important reason to pursue cases is for the victims. Their voices have been silenced and ignored up to this point and I believe are entitled to justice and their cases being heard in court.
Whilst there is some evidence to support this in the past you have no evidence to support current suppression.
you have no figures to suggest that these are the few bad apples letting down the side either.let's see if we ever manage to get any movement on the alleged whitehall paedophile ring. It won't prove my case of course, because just how many constitutes a 'raft' or an 'epidemic' among the establishment?
I rather suspect the balance of probabilities does show that a lot of senior establishment figures have been involved in this awful crime.But rather agree with Geoff that those who are dead should be left alone as they cannot defend themselves, and that some of the accusations need to be balanced against a different social mores in the 70s. Not all, of course, but some. I'm generally uneasy about accusations many years old, as I know that if I were accused of something (I'll just make it clear that isn't going to be the case) 25 years ago, I'd never remember anything that could help me prove my innocence.
I can't agree with you on this Will. The victims need to feel vindicated having been ignored for 40 years. Also i think we do need to establish the tenor of the times for the history books to come. I'm sure it would be possible to consider the cases of dead people in an alternate way to a regular court process, even if it is by judicial inquiry.
I understand the victims' view, Marc: but we can't go to a point where people cannot defend themselves, can we? That's unfair too.
many living people choose to defend themselves by not testifying in court #justsaying
People shouldn't be protected from the law just because they're dead.That's a disgusting vanity.
or a whitewash/cover up when it's establishment figures
Will wrote: "Not all, of course, but some. I'm generally uneasy about accusations many years old, as I know that if I were accused of something (I'll just make it clear that isn't going to be the case) 25 years ago, I'd never remember anything that could help me prove my innocence. ..."I think this is one of the problems that the CPS has, that when somebody is dead, and there are no witnesses, how on earth can justice be done?
When it is a victim who feels the need to be vindicated, and when is it an attention seeker who wants their time in the spotlight (perhaps suffering from something similar to Munchausen syndrome by proxy)
Witnesses are always unreliable. This has been proven before.Take the example of the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. All the witnesses swore he was wearing a padded jacket and jumped a turnstile. Both were incorrect when the video was examined, he was in shirtsleeves and walked through the turnstile.
Please see this:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...
while I don't disagree that witnesses are unreliable, that is what our detection and criminal justice system relies on. So are we to scrap it and just hope criminals always leave some DNA at the scene? The burden of proof is on the prosecution and it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury I served on observed these strictures to the full and we rejected both the cases that came before us. The witnesses in both were almost all policemen I ought to say. In the first we felt they had cobbled together their statements in the canteen since they read like a script from The Sweeney, further backed up by the copper reading from his notebook in the second case who was barely literate and struggled to read his own notes in the witness box.
Marc wrote: "while I don't disagree that witnesses are unreliable, that is what our detection and criminal justice system relies on. So are we to scrap it and just hope criminals always leave some DNA at the scene?"Your post poses two different problems, Marc. The first is the unreliability of witnesses, the second is deliberate collusion to bring about a desired outcome. Both are very different issues.
Witness statements are so unreliable that using them as the basis for criminal convictions is fundamentally unsound, if unsupported by forensic evidence. May I suggest you listen to the podcast of Serial - you can download it here - http://serialpodcast.org/
After listening to that, tell me that witness statements are a valid basis for conviction.
Marc wrote: "weight of corroborative victims Jim?"If you have corroborative victims. Just looking at the Ted Heath speculation
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...
The first 'evidence' was from a madame of a brothel who claimed to have used threats to 'tell all' to get charges dropped.
She has announced that she never did, and the lawyers who handled the case have opened their records and the records agree with her
Then there's the fact that he sailed to Jersey and at the time there were children being abused. Well pretty well anyone male who took a holiday on the island in that period could be accused on that 'evidence'
Finally it is claimed that there was a VIP child abuse ring (which might be true)in Westminster forty or fifty years ago. Apparently one person claims that Edward Heath was a core member of that ring.
So at the moment there aren't even collaborative victims.
And a he-did-he-didn't without witnesses, and especially so long ago, and even more especially when one party to the argument is dead, is never going to establish anything like truth.Forty years ago, I was accused to my then boss of assaulting a secretary whilst she was collecting files from my office. Things would have gone badly for me if i'd been on my own in the office. Luckily I had a witness who explained that I had not only been at my desk and nowhere near the girl (who had walked backwards into the arm of a chair) - and even more luckily the witness was a middle aged lady whose word was beyond reproach or dispute.
Obviously I took care never to be in that office alone when that particular girl came in after files again... but the point is that the false accusation could have easily wrecked my life completely - and the girl would have believed her story to be true, anyway.
If she now came out of the past with that accusation, how could I disprove it again? I've no idea if my witness is alive or dead, or where she lives now.
So I've deep concerns about this historical stuff.
It's fine to be concerned about these historical charges, but then we should hold the same concerns about any allegations that occur more recently.It's about looking at the available evidence and making judgements based on that.
Just because someone is dead, I don't see why that should change.
Michael Cargill wrote: "It's fine to be concerned about these historical charges, but then we should hold the same concerns about any allegations that occur more recently.It's about looking at the available evidence and..."
The problem is that if somebody is dead through old age, it's probable that a whole generation of witnesses are also dead.
The problem is that there might even be money in it
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/rel...
Both of those problems can present themselves whether the accused is dead or alive.
https://www.goodreads.com/photo/group...Although, I suppose the alternative would be discussing what happened on Eastenders?
Is Eastenders still even on?
That's not a bad quote, actually.In other news, it looks like we'll be restarting the Greece debate a little earlier than expected!
Michael Cargill wrote: "That's not a bad quote, actually.In other news, it looks like we'll be restarting the Greece debate a little earlier than expected!"
Someone didn't kick the can hard enough, it seems.
Michael Cargill wrote: "That's not a bad quote, actually.In other news, it looks like we'll be restarting the Greece debate a little earlier than expected!"
it's how Putin operates within Russia. he has his mates head up any political group be it the Far right or a LGBT pressure group. With them in charge he can control what they say (ie no anti-Putin stuff) while he can point to the diversity within Russia as represented by such a wide 'diversity' of groups
Oh now, Russia is interesting.I hear LOTS of stuff about about Russia that doesn't make it into the Western news, as lots of my friends are from Russia and have family there.
There's fomenting happening, it seems.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Oh now, Russia is interesting.I hear LOTS of stuff about about Russia that doesn't make it into the Western news, as lots of my friends are from Russia and have family there.
There's fomenting h..."
I wouldn't be at all surprised. One comment I heard somebody make on Radio 4 is just how many educated Russians (who aren't oligarchs) have just left Russia to work and live elsewhere.
Some even commented that they wanted to live in a civilised country
The Martin Cruz Smith series of novels featuring Russian investigator Arkady Renko give a fascinating, and terrifying, insight into what life is like in modern Russia.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Saw this, this morning - pricelesshttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/"
you beat me to it :-)
message 1398:
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Aug 22, 2015 04:25AM)
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Sorry, Jim.I have the advantage of being a lazy arse at the moment
I am presently waiting to see if my vote for JC will be disallowed -as I left the party over the decision to go to war in Iraq, I may be considered a dangerous lefty enterist...
Will wrote: "I am presently waiting to see if my vote for JC will be disallowed -as I left the party over the decision to go to war in Iraq, I may be considered a dangerous lefty enterist..."But you're a little to the right of at least one of the candidates :-)
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Having union officials performing triage at the hospital entrance to see who could and could not go in takes some beating as well :-(
Ah yes, the good old days