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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
R.M.F wrote: "We've fought everyone from Napoleon Bonaparte, To Rommel, Jewish settlers, Ottoman Empire, the list goes on. High time we pulled the plug and got the hell out. ..."
Change the names and it's a strong argument for pulling out of the EU :-)
I forgot one in my list of possible peacekeepers, U2, or possibly just Bono if The Edge is out buying new guitar strings
Marc wrote: "I agree. But then who you going to call on to contain the madness there? The UN? The US? The Dutch? The Faroes?"Between them, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Jordan, and Israel, can sort it out.
If Cameron wants to start bombing camels, he can get in the cockpit and do it himself.
are you serious? Each has their own agenda. Saudi in Yemen. Iran in iraq, syria & lebanon. Israel on extended its borders in an exclusion zone and at the expense of the Palestinians. Turkey playing a real blinder as regards Syria isn't it? Too busy keeping a thumb on the Kurds to stop the recruits to ISIS flooding over its border. Jordan? Irrelevant. I think you missed out Egypt which is a big regional player, but just now has removed itself for picking bloodily at its own navel
Marc wrote: "are you serious? Each has their own agenda. Saudi in Yemen. Iran in iraq, syria & lebanon. Israel on extended its borders in an exclusion zone and at the expense of the Palestinians. Turkey playing..."Exactly. Let them cut each others throats.
R.M.F wrote: "Exactly. Let them cut each others throats. ..."Or as it appears, nuke each other
Marc wrote: "I forgot one in my list of possible peacekeepers, U2, or possibly just Bono if The Edge is out buying new guitar strings"I used to ride the U2 to and from work in Vienna. It was very convenient.
Now tell me that this rhetoric from Boy George does not hide a concerted attack on the poor.http://www.theguardian.com/education/...
http://www.theguardian.com/society/20...
Specifically the point where the DWP says: We estimate the cost savings to be... but have not calculated the cost of supporting those families affected.
Ethnic cleansing arrives in the UK. Only this time it is the vunerable being driven from their homes.
(Waits for Will to start frothing)
I think we ought to introduce a few general principles into public finance.For example nobody will be taxed to contribute to the pension of somebody earning more than them
That sort of thing. It'll be tricky to work out, it might mean that all public employees got the same pension entitlement, no matter what their income, but then, 'from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs' so I've no doubt our Chancellor could make a really major saving and split the labour party by stealing the left's ideological clothing
;-)
Much better to do away with the idea of a state pension at all, Jim. After all, all those economically inactive octogenarians are a wasteful drain on the country's resources. In these difficult times for the economy, we do need to consider if we can afford the luxury of older people (unless they are terribly well off of course)
I'm glad my MP and others in his party (SNP) are putting up a fight, unlike the spineless bunch that calls itself the Labour party.
well it was the SNP that filletted them
Will wrote: "Much better to do away with the idea of a state pension at all, Jim. After all, all those economically inactive octogenarians are a wasteful drain on the country's resources. In these difficult t..."well as someone who's pension consists of working until he drops I probably wouldn't notice :-(
Seems to be a lot of talk on twitter about an Australian TV show doing an documentary about child-abuse at the heart of Westminster, some years ago, and that great efforts were made to cover it up. It would seem that Jimmy Saville was only the tip of the iceberg. Unsurprisingly, our media seem to be very quiet on this subject.
yeah I heard a still serving Labour MP was one of the names
Marc wrote: "yeah I heard a still serving Labour MP was one of the names"I'm surprised the media reported that. They're usually too busy sucking up to the Royals or getting to cosy with government.
It was the Australian version of 60 minutes that showed the documentary.You can view on YouTube here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...
A few MPs and others were named.
Michael Cargill wrote: "It was the Australian version of 60 minutes that showed the documentary.You can view on YouTube here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...
A few MPs and others we..."
Yeah, understandably, legal considerations have to be observed when dealing with who can and can't be named. Obviously, everybody is innocent until proven guilty.
No such provision exists for the dead. Was surprised to learn that Lord Louis Mountbatten has been suspected. Again, he may be innocent, but from what I've been hearing and reading, some of his past actions were highly questionable, especially in regard to a children's home in Ireland...
More grim reading for people like me. Under 40s have no chance of getting onto the property ladder. What's happened to this country? Productivity is down, taxation revenue is down, property bubbles seem to be the driver of growth, deficit problems, and...
I can't be arsed saying anymore :)
In short, people like me are doomed!
this was all the same in the 80s under Thatcher when the property bubble burst there too. We only have a few significant growth industries, in the 80s it was private health, property & financial services and what are the Tories cowtowing to? They give the Bankers an easy ride, they're massacring the NHS which will force more people into private health schemes and well yes property is still booming and busting strong.
Marc wrote: "this was all the same in the 80s under Thatcher when the property bubble burst there too. We only have a few significant growth industries, in the 80s it was private health, property & financial se..."It's alright for people like you. You probably own your home, your pension is secure, comfortable retirement awaits you :)
It's young people like me that will have to clean up the mess, and fight global warming and Chinese invasions. That's the future I've got to look forward too :)
I have no pension. The bank own my home as it was remortgaged. And I will never retire from writing, they'll have to prise the pen from my cold, dead fingers at death
R.M.F wrote: "Was surprised to learn that Lord Louis Mountbatten has been suspected..."Don't know what else he was up to, but reference to Mountbatten reminds me of an anecdote I read. During the war, MB had two ships under his command torpedoed and sunk when he decided to stop zig-zagging to make up time. Always self-confident, he lobbied directly with Churchill to be given command of an aircraft carrier. Churchill's response was, "Damn, man, haven't you had enough ships shot out from under you?" MB was not entrusted with any ships during the rest of the war. But he was given opportunities to make a hash of operations like the Dieppe raid.
David wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Was surprised to learn that Lord Louis Mountbatten has been suspected..."Don't know what else he was up to, but reference to Mountbatten reminds me of an anecdote I read. During the..."
Quite like Churchill's reply to that request.
Marc wrote: "I have no pension. The bank own my home as it was remortgaged. And I will never retire from writing, they'll have to prise the pen from my cold, dead fingers at death"Apart from that, everything is fine :)
Marc wrote: "I have no pension. The bank own my home as it was remortgaged. And I will never retire from writing, they'll have to prise the pen from my cold, dead fingers at death"You aren't alone there Marc.
Although I did have a decent pension fund: but it has been stolen by Aviva to pay Lemmy and Iggy Pop to make adverts for them...to pull in other suckers to be ripped off.
I was under the mistaken impression that the older generation were all property owning millionaires, ready to blow their pension pots on fast cars and plastic surgery! :)
Got a fast car, though!Cost me £ 750, too!
Scaletrix is it?
I sincerely hope not. I always put the scalextric cars off the track...
So, having registered to vote in the Leadership contest, I'm now being bombarded with material by some of those standing.Full marks to Yvette Cooper for being first off the mark. 'Nil points' (imagine the heavy french accent there please) for crap material. Even Tories claim to believe in fairness and equality, although we all know that's a lie, so why make that the base of your claim to be a leader?
Will, do you not think there is a better quality of contender in the deputy leadership contest?
i haven't paid it much attention, Marc: although I'll be glad to see the back of Harriet Harmon
fundamentally flawed3 is irrelevant as Scotland will be independent before the enxt Labour government. Those seats ain't coming back.
4 is preposterous as while the Tories might struggle to squeeze new votes, how is a Left-Wing Labour party going to take tory votes? It's too great a leap.
Labour is seriously screwed, whichever wing wins the leadership battle. A left-wing man will never get voted to lead a fundamentally small c conservative nation, while a right-wing leader won't get elected as Tory-Lite, since the populace trust the Tories to run Capitalism more than Labour.
Blair got in as the article says because people were fed up with the longevity of the Tories and their corruption. But Blair offered an alternative (or so we thought). What does either wing of the current Labour Party offer, especially with the context of SNP, Greens & UKIP
I think there are problems with the analysis.1) A financial crisis. This would be an opportunity for any Labour leader, rather than Corbyn. (This isn't an anti-Corbyn point.)
But what a Labour leader could do is 'blow it.' Remember that the Libdems lost most seats to the Conservatives. So if Labour doesn't look good, they might find that in a crisis people switch back to the Libdems.
2) The main cuts have been made now. If there is now major financial crisis (see above) and things are improving, the proportion of people suffering from Austerity might well have decreased and people are liking not paying the tax.
3) Scotland might go away, but it might also be locked out of English politics by then
4)As Marc says this one is a bit preposterous. But also it is based entirely on the assumption that the economy will not improve. If it doesn't improve then pretty well any of the Labour candidates for leader are in with a good chance of winning, or at least getting into a coalition.
Also we will almost certainly have the constituency boundaries changed by the next election. Given that the change is apparently 15 years overdue, it's about time. Wales might or might not loose between 5 to 8 Westminster seats.
5) I don't think many people outside a core group of labour supporters 'hated' the Conservatives. I think people just decided that it was time 'the other lot' had a turn
6) I genuinely don't know if 'left policies' are popular or not.
Looking at it, apart from point 6, I'm not sure any of these would work for Corbyn any more than they would for any other Labour Candidate who was reasonably presentable.
Hmm ... that article is very shallow.1. All the analysis is suggesting that the UK is recovering from a recession and not heading for a new one. The deficit is coming down, which will reduce future interest payments. We are far from out of the woods, but the recovery is happening and will probably help the conservatives.
2. Austerity is the one area where a Corbyn labour party might pick up some votes. His problem is that anti-austerity measures will cost more in the long run than austerity, and will largely help existing Labour core supporters and not the swing voters. But Greece has shown us that anti-austerity rhetoric can be very popular with those who haven't thought through the implications.
3. Scotland will continue to hurt Labour more than it hurts the Conservatives. Without Scottish seats it is hard to see Labour winning an outright majority. And a hard-left Labour/ SNP alliance would be poison to many undecided or middle ground voters.
4. Yup, this one is silly. The Tories could continue to take votes from the lib dems and UKIP, particularly if austerity measures means they have a chance for tax cuts later.
5. Another silly one. You can't simply compare the numbers of votes for each party without taking into account the rise of support for other parties, such as the lib dems and the nationalists.
6. People like left wing politics? Huh? I think it is generally true that people like the objectives of left wing policies. Who could object to principles like equality and the welfare state? The problem for the left wing is how to achieve those objectives in a recession when the country is overspending at record levels.
That's the conundrum that Labour faces. They need to come up with workable policies which both achieve traditional labour values and tackle the recession. Corbyn's dinosaur left wing policies won't do it, but they will be superficially attractive to people who want the outcomes he is promising. That might be enough to see him into power - it worked for the Greek anti-austerity coalition.
I'd disagree with Jim slightly on this one. I think point 2 - austerity - is Corbyn's best chance to appeal to the electorate. Unfortunately, I think it's also one of his weakest arguments.
We need a healthy opposition to hold the Government to account. I am not seeing anyone who particularly inspires me yet, and Tony Blair is exactly right that Corbyn would be electoral suicide.
message 1140:
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 24, 2015 01:36AM)
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I agree with you Will, a Corbyn leader would be a disaster, because it would again return us to a landslide majority for the Conservative party. Having lived through a number of these now, they are more destructive than any political party could possibly be. A clear example of this was the Poll Tax. This would never have got into law if there had been a majority of 30 or so, but because there was a such a majority, the opposers to this legislation never got the chance to turn it into a good method of raising revenue. By the time they did, it was already toxic.
BTW Will, I'm concerned that you may have too much time on your hands today. ;)
the weird thing is when Blair had 2 huge majorities, he did virtually nothing with them in terms of significant legislation
Setting Corbyn aside for a moment (because it's not about him) but I think 'shallow' sums up the article.One issue is assuming that the conservative party could split over Europe.
We might have left Europe by the time that the next election is called. Not only that but I think that there are a lot of people in the centre and left in British politics who are looking hard at Europe after the way they have acted to Greece.
So it's entirely possible that this issue might split Labour as much or even more than the Tories. But it is also possible that a lot of Labour MPs etc are shifting to a stance where they are more in touch with their constituents and it could be that a less pro-EU party could take votes of UKIP.
Not wanting to knock Corbyn, but whilst in the greater scheme of things he isn't quite irrelevant, but he's marginal. The important thing for this country is for the Labour party to be coherent. If it is a coherent party, then it has a chance of winning. But I'm afraid that we might have got to the stage that it has to become a coherent English party and can no longer rely on drawing in MPs from Wales and Scotland.
more than that Jim, there is a lack of coherence between its London bloc and the Northern cities. The two constituencies have very little in common
Marc wrote: "the weird thing is when Blair had 2 huge majorities, he did virtually nothing with them in terms of significant legislation"Power for its own sake, that's why.
Actually:https://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/abo...
Human Rights Act
Compulsory DNA recording
Declaration of war in Kosovo
Iraq War
Introduction of Foundation Hospitals
Tuition fees
Education reforms
If you look carefully 98% of changes in law came about by statutory instruments not new Acts of Parliament. This was deliberately done to allow less time for debate by MPs.
Taking this into account, the Blair government passed a new law every 3 hours. These figures exclude European laws that affect Britain.
Not just that, but the left of the party will, I suspect, not tolerate people like Kendall or Cooper who have no real values behind them. If they are elected as leader, there is going to be a total implosion - not least because they are unelectable as PM's - why vote for them when you can have genuine Tories?I think that article was right when it said that the challenge is to draw back those labour voters who went to UKIP, and capture Lib Dem voters.
Corbyn could do that - his actual policies when examined will prove to be a lot more in tune with the times than he's being painted - there's a lot of complete rubbish being spouted about him right now across the press.
I was reading some interesting stuff about the most popular political party in Britain, and that party is called: None of the above...The number of people not voting, would have won the 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005,2010, and 2015 elections, if they'd been a political party. Sobering.
If Labour were smart, and it's a huge if, they would be better targeting that lot, instead of marginal seats in Middle England. They would thrash the Tories if they got back some of those people.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Actually:https://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/abo...
Human Rights Act
Compulsory DNA recording
Declaration of war in Kosovo
Iraq War
Introduction of Foundation Hospitals..."
sorry Geoff, I meant to exclude foreign conflict. I meant significant domestic legislation
R.M.F wrote: "I was reading some interesting stuff about the most popular political party in Britain, and that party is called: None of the above...The number of people not voting, would have won the 1992, 199..."
yeah and I consider myself as one such, someone who goes to the trouble of scrawling "None Of the Above" on my ballot paper. The question is how Labour appeals to this cohort. there is no obvious solution and no way of assuming such a bloc all think the same and have similar values that can be tapped into
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Sadly Marc, I think you're correct. I do wish I could point out just where you were wrong, and I suspect you'd be delighted if I could. But I'm afraid I cannot :-(