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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
It's funny to see people hoist on their own petard. The Telegraph newspaper begged us to stay, we stayed. Now they're saying we can't vote in Westminster, even though the law says we can...So, in summary, English MPs want to be able to vote on anything they like, but they don't want the rest of the UK voting on 'English only' matters...
Right...
Let's take EVEL to its logical conclusion. If Scottish MPs can't vote on English matters, then why should MPs from the North of England vote on transport infrastructure in London, which has its own assembly. Should men be barred from voting on changes to abortion law? What about Yorkshire MPs voting on flood improvements in Gloucester?
The problem for the SNP is that they're now largely irrelevant in that they've been factored out of the important debate because everybody knows what they'll do.Scotland itself is largely irrelevant to it. A fair proportion of the English don't particularly care whether they stay or go, (in England the poll figures for Scots independence have often been higher than in Scotland)
Europe is now the important debate and it is going to split most parties. The Labour party discovered that UKIP stole a lot of their voters, and the only party that is probably solidly pro EU is the libdems. But actually they might find the new muscular EU something they dislike.
I suspect that with the Conservative party they'll let it be a free vote, already it looks as if ministers are going to be allowed to campaign against staying in. Labour will probably follow suite, or if they're clever get in first.
Compared to Europe, Scotland will fade into the background. If the SNP start saying that Scotland should have a veto of the UK leaving the EU, then that'll probably swing some English votes behind leaving.
The only situation I can see where a result will get difficult is where England alone votes to leave and the UK as a whole votes to stay.
Jim, as I've said before, we in Scotland had two years of Better together, please stay, family of nations, we're all equal partners in the UK ect etc etcWestminster can't now turn round and say that Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, don't get a say on the UK leaving Europe, especially if one of those parts votes to stay in, and the rest vote to leave.
I know it sounds absurd, but they said it first, not us. I'm just taking Westminster at its word.
The UK is not greater England.
Who said it was, but following your statement, if the majority of the UK population vote to leave, then it doesn't matter what Scotland voted, because the UK is not greater scotland.Obviously in that situation, the Scots might want to leave the UK, just as in the situation where the English voted strongly to leave but the UK didn't, the English might decide to leave the UK.
the Scots will want to leave the UK if England votes to leave the EU. That's why we will very likely have another independence referendum set up in the lifetime of this parliament and probably a constitutional crisis to boot
Marc wrote: "er the way I read that (and how badly written was it btw?) was as I said above. The SNP won't care how hot under the collar Angry from Tunbridge Wells gets, all grist to their independence mill"I quite agree Marc, it was a very sloppy piece of writing. Unfortunately, the old joke regarding The Gruniard now refers to most of the press.
As for the comment regarding the SNPs boorish behaviour and outright lying - why would anyone, outside the Nats, trust them at all? The referendum proved one thing, above all else, the Scots are not gullible. They will not be fooled by their lies.
But if they are the only Party a) offering independence and b) with the clout to deliver it, then the Scots will stick with them because I think they have committed themselves to the idea. Labour dominated Scottish post-war politics and delivered nothing to the Scots that they saw of value. That is what has led to the push for going their own way, capped off when Labour were in the pro-Union campaign which to the Scots seemed to mean they were Tories with red rosettes.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Marc wrote: "er the way I read that (and how badly written was it btw?) was as I said above. The SNP won't care how hot under the collar Angry from Tunbridge Wells gets, all grist to their independ..."Because no party in the history of British politics has ever lied. The SNP are unique in telling lies. Is that what you're saying?
Marc wrote: "But if they are the only Party a) offering independence and b) with the clout to deliver it, then the Scots will stick with them because I think they have committed themselves to the idea. Labour d..."Labour ruled for 50 years in Scotland. The SNP could equally achieve a similar feat, because Labour are going down the path of trying to out-Tory the Tories, in order to win English marginals, something that won't play well in Scotland.
Jim wrote: "Who said it was, but following your statement, if the majority of the UK population vote to leave, then it doesn't matter what Scotland voted, because the UK is not greater scotland.Obviously in ..."
I think the lock system i.e all parts of the UK have to vote the same, is the fairest way, else the UK becomes a mockery of itself.
Yes, I know it's absurd that that Northern Ireland or Wales or Scotland, could hold the balance of power, but Westminster keeps insisting that the Union is a partnership of equals. Their words, not mine.
R.M.F wrote: "I think the lock system i.e all parts of the UK have to vote the same, is the fairest way, else the UK becomes a mockery of itself. Yes, I know it's absurd that that Northern Ireland or Wales or Scotland, could hold the balance of power, but Westminster keeps insisting that the Union is a partnership of equals. Their words, not mine. ..."
Don't confuse Westminster and England.
Marc wrote: "the Scots will want to leave the UK if England votes to leave the EU. That's why we will very likely have another independence referendum set up in the lifetime of this parliament and probably a co..."I think by that time the English won't care to be honest. If England votes decisively to leave the EU, is it likely that losing the Scots will deter them?
Will wrote: "That's just rot, Will. The job of opposition is to oppose. That is what democracy is all about. If Camaron thought he could command a commons majority on the vote, he'd have gone for it. He droppe..."Nope. Democracy is "rule by the many". Our elected representatives are supposed to take decisions on our behalf. The Opposition also represents the views of the many by moderating the Government.
The SNP's antics are not about good Government. They are playing games solely for electoral advantage by tinkering with legislation that does not apply to Scotland. They are not representing their constituents.
It's a silly move that will backfire on them.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Not happy reading for RMF:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11...
Jim, you are absolutely on the money..."
Must admit Geoff, I only saw a journalist with poor writing skills frothing at the mouth and the brain at the same time.
Jim wrote: "Marc wrote: "the Scots will want to leave the UK if England votes to leave the EU. That's why we will very likely have another independence referendum set up in the lifetime of this parliament and ...I think by that time the English won't care to be honest. If England votes decisively to leave the EU, is it likely that losing the Scots will deter them? "
no, not at all. The English won't care what the Scots do and if they did they couldn't really stop them anyway. It's like a Premiership football team having a player who wants top be at another club. His contract is meaningless if he gets the pout on
I agree entirely. It's not for the English to do anything, it's just up to the Scots to leave or not. It's entirely up to them. So far they've voted to stay which is fair enough, but by voting to stay they can hardly expect a country with a population of 5.3 million to tell a country with a population of 53 million what it can or cannot do. (It's a bit like when people were saying after the last election, the North of England should join Scotland. Given that Manchester Metropolitan area and Liverpool/Birkenhead Metropolitan area have a population larger than Scotland, it would be a case of Scotland being subsumed into the North of England :-)
why not, the Labour Front Bench had been doing that for years under Smith, Blair & Brown! :-)
Mind you, it is worth pointing out that the SNP didn't actually *DO* anything, isn't it?All they did was announce that in the free vote offered to all MP s on the issue, they would vote against the proposal.
And that was enough. One wonders if everytime the SNP say 'Oh, we'll vote against it' the Tory administration will go into a huddle and wet their pants?
In other words, in a free vote the SNP will force all of their MPs to vote on party lines and simultaneously break an election pledge only to vote on issues that affect Scotland?"All they did ..."?
The easy solution to all this is for England to get off its arse and create an English parliament. Given that they've done feck all for 40 years on this issue, I'm not expecting any action any time soon...Perhaps England needs another 40 years? :)
Of course, people in England will moan about extra layers of politicians, money down the drain, blah blah blah.
Fetch me a violin. If England can't sort out its own problems, it's not our problem :)
Will wrote: "In other words, in a free vote the SNP will force all of their MPs to vote on party lines and simultaneously break an election pledge only to vote on issues that affect Scotland?"All they did ..."?"
You're forgetting that Scotland and England don't exist in a UK parliament.
And another thing. It's not the SNP's job to worry about Tory backbenchers. The Tories have a majority, and yet, many of their MPs rebelled against the Fox Hunting vote, thus jeopardising the chance of the government winning the vote. I fail to see how Cameron's failure to control his backbenchers is an SNP problem...
No, I'm not forgetting anything. I distinctly remember the SNP saying that the independence referendum was a once in a lifetime deal and the wouldn't be asking for another one.And I remember them saying that they said that they would vote on purely English issues.
Not to mention promising the electorate an anti-austerity policy which simply cannot be afforded.
You are quite right that it's not the SNP's job to worry about Tory backbenchers. But that is precisely what they are doing by organising a whipped vote during a free vote on an issue that has nothing to do with Scotland whatsoever.
I don't have the slightest problem with English and Welsh Tory backbenchers voting with their conscience on fox hunting. They are doing what they are paid to do - representing their constituents. And if the Government gets a bloody nose as a result, that's fine by me too. I thought that the ban on fox hunting was absolutely right - and that Labour deserved praise for doing it.
What I object to is when politicians lie to us. Or play purely political games. Or forget that they are supposed to be there to represent our best interests and not theirs. And that's why I am deeply unimpressed by the SNP.
Dishonest. Flaky. Amateurish.
Marc wrote: "once a generation I think Will."Yes, that's what I remember, because I took it to mean once every 15 to 20 years which seemed reasonable enough
R.M.F wrote: "The easy solution to all this is for England to get off its arse and create an English parliament. Given that they've done feck all for 40 years on this issue, I'm not expecting any action any time soon....."if you don't like it, leave
Ah but you had a vote over that
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "The easy solution to all this is for England to get off its arse and create an English parliament. Given that they've done feck all for 40 years on this issue, I'm not expecting any a..."Exactly. We had a problem, we had a vote. Obviously, it didn't go the way I wanted it to, but at least there was a vote.
Compare and contrast that to England's non-activity on the issue of an English parliament. Time for you lot to roll your sleeves up.
Will wrote: "No, I'm not forgetting anything. I distinctly remember the SNP saying that the independence referendum was a once in a lifetime deal and the wouldn't be asking for another one.And I remember them..."
SNP politicians are not there to represent yourself, for the simple matter that you couldn't vote for them. My MP is SNP, and I'm happy with the job he's doing. As far as I'm concerned, he represents my interests.
"And I remember them saying that they said that they would [not] vote on purely English issues."
That was always the case, until English MPs changed the rules of the game and voted down the Scotland bill. Something that didn't effect them or their constituents. As I've said, EVEL has to cut both ways.
Meantime, across Europe, the opposition to the failures of 'austerity economics' grows.http://www.rt.com/news/267049-spain-o...
Your interests include fox hunting in England and Wales? How so?The Scotland Bill is about the devolution of powers from the UK Parliament to Scotland. So it is very much legitimate for MPs from all parts of the UK to vote on it.
The two issues are simply not comparable. The fox hunting proposals do not affect Scotland in the slightest. The Scotland Bill is about the fundamental relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Only the SNP playing their cheap tricks could link the two.
Will, that's silly. You assume that every individual issue will be treated separately, and that just doesn't happen. No political party does that. The Tories certainly don't. Nor do labour. Kick one leg and the other twitches is a proverb that seems to apply here.Why are you vilifying the SNP for behaving like a political party at Westminster?
R.M.F wrote: "Compare and contrast that to England's non-activity on the issue of an English parliament. Time for you lot to roll your sleeves up. .."Why should we set up a whole new parliament when you lot were promising to clear of and leave us plenty of room in the one we've already got? With the Scots gone there would be no point in and English parliament, the Welsh and NI have theirs and we wouldn't need one.
But then you cannot make your minds up and first you're going and then you're not and then you are again.
It's worse than having supposedly grown up kids who won't leave home. They wander off and you're half way through planning what you're going to do with their room and working out that you can now afford an extra holiday a year when you discover they haven't actually left.
I'm not accusing you of this, but many people, particularly Conservative MPs, seem to think that England is Britain, and vice-versa. That's why their needs to be one. Yes, I'm not happy that Scotland voted to stay in, but that's the cold, hard reality of the matter, and the UK needs to deal with that.
Will wrote: "Will, that's silly. You assume that every individual issue will be treated separately, and that just doesn't happen. No political party does that. The Tories certainly don't. Nor do labour. Kic..."That's exactly what I keep asking. One minute Westminster is begging us to stay in, we're all part of the UK etc etc and the next minute they moan that our MPs are being horrible by being an active part of the UK parliament!
It confuses the hell out of me :)
"Your interests include fox hunting in England and Wales? How so?"I've said it until I'm blue in the face :)
There is no England or Wales in a UK parliament.
"The Scotland Bill is about the devolution of powers from the UK Parliament to Scotland. So it is very much legitimate for MPs from all parts of the UK to vote on it."
And that cuts both ways in a UK parliament.
I feel we're all going round in circles on this one.
"The two issues are simply not comparable. The fox hunting proposals do not affect Scotland in the slightest. The Scotland Bill is about the fundamental relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK."
So why do English MPs sit on the Scottish affairs committee?
R.M.F wrote: "I'm not accusing you of this, but many people, particularly Conservative MPs, seem to think that England is Britain, and vice-versa. That's why their needs to be one. ..."So what, there are Scots who seem to think that Braveheart is history.
In fact compared to Braveheart, assuming England is Britain is only a 15% margin of error which is pretty good on a government project
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I'm not accusing you of this, but many people, particularly Conservative MPs, seem to think that England is Britain, and vice-versa. That's why their needs to be one. ..."So what, t..."
??
Tell you what Jim, I bet someone could get a grant to make a film about Edward 1 bravely and chivalrously extending the Empire by bringing much needed civilisation to his nearest foreign neighbour (Wales)... have to skip over the brutal repression that followed, the huge cost and use of overwhelming military force though, just like they do in the history books...History is a form of fiction as it's written by the winners.
Will wrote: "Tell you what Jim, I bet someone could get a grant to make a film about Edward 1 bravely and chivalrously extending the Empire by bringing much needed civilisation to his nearest foreign neighbour ..."easily done. As always the English fight alongside local allies whether in Scotland, Wales, France, America, India, Malaya or Afghanistan.
It's cheaper and means the population at home can enjoy the moral outrage at their government's disgusting behaviour and get all the benefits of empire without ever having to risk their own necks.
We found a system that worked, kept our casualties down and meant there were people all over the world who needed us, if only because we were the only people who could protect them from their internal rivals
Will wrote: "Tell you what Jim, I bet someone could get a grant to make a film about Edward 1 bravely and chivalrously extending the Empire by bringing much needed civilisation to his nearest foreign neighbour ..."Perhaps you've been watching the wrong programmes, Will. Have a look at the History of Castles that was on BBC4. Looks more closely at Edward I financial gamble with castles.
Ha! Edward took down my local castle, Geoff. He brought 10,000 men - can you credit that? Ten THOUSAND? With a full siege train. The garrison was about 30 blokes and a village...That BBC4 program was fascinating, but a bit slanted.
R.M.F. - yes, we have a UK Parliament. but to satisfy the interests of devolution, some legislation applies only to parts of the UK. The latest fox hunting proposals apply to England and Wales only. There is no point in repeating your argument about it being a UK parliament because in this respect it simply isn't true.The SNP are not behaving remotely like other parties.
well they aren't remotely like the other parties, they are a purely Scots party. There is a purely Welsh party and some purely Irish parties.Looked at as a UK party they got about a 10th of the votes of the Conservatives, a third of the vote of UKIP and slightly more than the Greens
Will wrote: "R.M.F. - yes, we have a UK Parliament. but to satisfy the interests of devolution, some legislation applies only to parts of the UK. The latest fox hunting proposals apply to England and Wales only..."So, to throw the questrion slightly to my narrow interest;
Under EVEL, why should any of the MP's be allowed to pass any legislation at all that relates to Wales? We have 40 MPs, against a total of what? 550 for England? All those MPs don't live in wales, have no Welsh constituents or interests.
Our Assembly can only deal with those powers specifically devolved, so why should English MP s vote on hunting in Wales?
Because it's a UK parliament, of course. Which gives the Scots equal rights in my book. If the English can vote on matters for the smaller nations in what remains of the empire, that has to work in reverse too.
Sorry, but that is not how it works. We have a UK Parliament which can and does have separate legislation for different parts of the UK. It has been like that for centuries.It's not just about England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, etc. We also have different laws for London compared with the rest of the UK. And legislation which affects even smaller areas, such as the designation of national parks.
Some decisions taken by Parliament affect the whole of the UK. Some decisions affect only a part of the UK. That's how our democracy works, and how it has always worked.
Of course, that gives rise to the possibility that an English MP could vote mischievously on a matter which only affected Scotland (and vice versa) - the so-called West Lothian issue.
Up to now, MPs have got around this by being sensible and reasonable to each other. With one or two exceptions, they tend not to get involved in issues that don't affect them or their constituencies. Up to now, the West Lothian question has been far more of a theoretical possibility than a real problem.
I say "up to now", because this has all changed with the childish antics of the SNP. They are threatening to whip their members to vote on an issue which does not affect them in the slightest. And their only real reason for doing that is for electoral advantage.
The current fox hunting proposals affect England and Wales only. That is perfectly consistent with a UK Parliament - we have many laws which are different across different parts of the UK. English and Welsh MPs can vote on that legislation because it will affect them all equally.
The SNP have no business in meddling with legislation that does not affect them.
It really is straight-forward. I am struggling to see why you can't understand it.
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Westminster is a UK parliament. There is no such thing as 'English' only matters...
UNLESS..YOU DON'T MEAN ENGLAND IS THE UK...
Oh my God... why didn't somebody tell us, the Welsh, and the Northern Irish :)