The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated *** Showing 901-950 of 5,982

[Will]

Reducing or eliminating the deficit benefits everyone because more of our taxes are spent on services and less on debt repayments and interest. Devolution is a red herring. It doesn't matter which flag you fly over your parliament if the budget doesn't balance.

As the hard left anti-austerity Greek government has just found out, as it makes long overdue austerity proposals to the EU.

[Will]

Umm,, I've read the document online now.

It struck me that, apart from giving way on privatisations, there's a bit more of a neat balancing act in there than is apparent from the newspaper reports... It isn't actually hugely different to the last set of proposals under all the sound bites.

Both sides will end up claiming victory in practice, after making a lot of noise. There's enough scope for Merkel to Hail Total Victory! which is what she wants, of course.

I bet there's no apparent debt relief at this point - but so much restructuring that it will amount to the same thing, with repayment linked to growth forecasts - which are very slim.

Defence cuts are the largest saving, and can be achieved by procurement savings rather than huge unemployment. And there's some sensible pension reform, which has been agreed anyway since January...

Sensible socialist policies like central procurement of medicines to achieve better discounts and use of generic rather than branded pharmaceuticals where medically possible.

And of course the Germans have been suggesting Humanitarian aid packages as their quid pro quo....

[Will]

I've been reading some of the budget detail.

"Legislation to prevent tax rises ever!'

Well, the legislation is actually only for this parliament. And has a lot of notable exclusions.. like the increase in Insurance Premium Tax, which will put every household and car Insurance policy premium up by rather a lot, hidden energy taxes that will impact on electricity costs.

I had Boy George down as a stupid, over priviledged tosser. He's still an over priviledged tosser, but I'm prepared to admit he has a lot of low cunning too.

[Jim]

I suspect that with Greece the big issue now is whether it can be sold to the Germans. Obviously they won't get a vote, but opinion polls show that apparently 80% of the German population are against Greece being bailed out using German money.
The big question is whether Merkel is willing to risk a big backlash.
'Alternative for Germany' is growing. Also in 2014 Federal Constitutional Court of Germany ruled the proposed 3% vote hurdle for representation in the European elections unconstitutional (to quote the wiki) and it is possible that the 5% vote hurdle for National elections might be lowered
Her government holds the majority of the seats in parliament but it's not the most stable of alliances, everybody but 'The Left' and 'The Greens' is in it and most of her time is probably taken holding it together

[Jim]

Will wrote: "I had Boy George down as a stupid, over priviledged tosser. He's still an over priviledged tosser, but I'm prepared to admit he has a lot of low cunning too.
..."

The problem we have in this country is when you look at both front benches, that's about as good as it gets. How many of the Labour or Conservative front bench would you employ to do a real job?

I suspect there's a couple of serious underlying issues. Talking to people from other countries they genuinely believe that you should treat politicians with an element of respect. I think with us that started to die during the First World War, and has got a regular good kicking since. The expenses scandal probably put the finishing touches to it for a lot of people because they could look at those jailed and decide 'they're all the same'

The other underlying issue is that the party machines have got too dominant. You don't get the proportion of MPs who could think for themselves that you used to get (because the machine doesn't like them, it makes apparatchiks nervous, MPs thinking for themselves)

The third issue is the unthinking 'hate' that you get. How often will you find anybody in politics willing to credit an opposition party for a genuine achievement or for saying something useful for the debate. Basically a couple of score of us meaningless oiks have to be gunned down somewhere foreign and they'll all be briefly statesmanlike and agree with each other, often for the full fifteen minutes

So we've got a situation where useful people who could do something just don't go into politics. Why on earth should they?
They're not allowed to think, the 'other lot' are always animals, scum, wrong, whatever (and half the time you are the other lot) and any thinking person will soon work out that there's damn all you can actually achieve. So all you get is the flak whatever you do

[Marc]

the hand in the cookie jar of expenses comes from the fact that with 650+ MPs, most have no real power and within a 5 year term some get itchy fingers because they feel they are 'owed' for their service to the country.

[Jim]

Ah yes, the feeling of 'entitlement' which we see shown by bosses of both public and private sector. But irrationally it gets up my nose most when it's the BBC. But at least I don't have to contribute them :-)

[Will]

When it is time for the EU referendum here, remember Reichchancellor Merkel and Greece...

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2...

[Jim]

But the EU has always had this attitude towards democracy, look at how the Irish were made to keep taking their referendum until they got the right answer, and when the French voted against the constitution, the EU just brought it in under a different name

The EU is not merely un-democratic, it's anti-democratic. They've already overthrown two governments, the Previous Greek and Italian ones

[Will]

I am appalled by this. The behaviour of the EU towards Greece has changed me entirely from a Europhile to one who is prepared to actively campaign against staying in the EU at the referendum.

[Jim]

Will wrote: "I am appalled by this. The behaviour of the EU towards Greece has changed me entirely from a Europhobe to one who is prepared to actively campaign against staying in the EU at the referendum."

I remember our discussion :-)

As someone whose entire working life has been dealing with the EU I started off as 'probably better in than out. However in the last ten years I've moved slowly towards the 'probably better out than in' (but with no great vehemence) and in the last three or four years I've got to the stage where frankly I feel we have to leave if our democracy is going to survive.

[Marc]

our democracy is in a poor state irrespective of the EU. The last election showed that. Our government was elected with a majority on a share of the vote that would be modest even within a multi-party coalition system.

[Jim]

Well our parties are coalitions

[Marc]

yes and the Whip system is anti-democratic while the breadth of Manifestoes are never going to represent any single voter.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

We had our chance to remove the first past the post system and the majority of UK citizens opposed it.

[Will]

Did we, Geoff? When?

[Marc]

Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "We had our chance to remove the first past the post system and the majority of UK citizens opposed it."

we did have the opportunity but I honestly believe most people didn't understand what the proposition was

[Will]

The EU are worried about throwing good money after bad. They don't trust the Greeks after their anti austerity rhetoric, silly tricks like calling a referendum, and the hostile way Greece has handled the negotiations. And the fact that Greece didn't keep its side if the bargain last time.

This could all have been avoided if Greece hadn't tried to bully their way to a debt write-off. It's what happens when you try to play brinkmanship without having many cards.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

2011 Will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...

Playing the "ignorant public" card, Marc. Really?

I knew exactly what the proposition was and so did the people I spoke to about it. In the end it was rejected. Get over it.

[Jim]

Marc wrote: "yes and the Whip system is anti-democratic while the breadth of Manifestoes are never going to represent any single voter."

That's why I think we need two minor changes. The first is a 'none of the above' on the ballot paper. Anybody getting less votes that that would not be allowed to seek public office or work for a quango for six years

The second is a very strict limit on party donations. Each MP can raise in their constituency no more than £5K, nationally the party can raise no more than £100K.

It would reduce the number of apparatchiks, force the party to rely more on the MPs and force the MPs to relate more closely to their voters

[Jim]

Will wrote: "This could all have been avoided if Greece hadn't tried to bully their way to a debt write-off. It's what happens when you try to play brinkmanship without having many cards. ..."

To be fair to the current party in power in Greece, they never built up the debt.
Also to be fair to them I'm not sure what else they could do

Firstly the debt will never be repaid.

Secondly there is no way Greece can survive in a single currency with Germany without massive capital transfers between the two areas. This is what happens in the USA, it's what happens in the UK. But German voters do not appear willing to pay for these capital transfers

Thirdly moving to a new currency isn't something that appears possible to do openly in situations like this. Most of the changes I've read about seem to happen on Monday morning when all the banks are shut anyway. I'm surprised that they haven't shifted to the Drachma already to be honest, they've had the nearest thing to perfect conditions to do it in

[Will]

I suspect that the bailout deal will now fail.

Merkel is too obviously trying to effectively take over Greece and asset strip it... which is simply unacceptable.

The political problem is that all the politicians have been to dishonest for years about the issue of a single currency where the countries involved have different levels of wealth. The planned structure was simply impossible, and finally it has reached breaking point now that one of the poor countries has stood up and said 'NO MORE'.

The divisions this has caused will not heal in a generation, and I think that the whole EU project of 'Ever closer Union' is about to founder - and that will be Merkel's legacy. The woman who broke the EU.

[Will]

And i'm wrong about a deal! Looks like Greece has negotiated :

That assets will not be stripped out of the country, and privatisation (not in my view a proper measure, though i know Will will mutter into his beard for HOURS about that) funds will remain in Greece to help recapitalise the banking system

That emergency funding will be available for both liquidity and the ECB loan repayments (Presumably the IMF loans too?)
Debt restructuring and a 'grace period' on repayments


Now we shall see if austerity works in any way or simply creates an even deeper recession, and more misery for the people who (unlike the previous conservative government) are not responsible for the mess.

[Jim]

Just looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

It's fascinating, certainly the last thirty or forty years.
If you take 1980 as your start date the Greeks have been swapping mainly between Pasok (left) and New Democracy (right)

If you scroll to the bottom of the page there's a nice chart, it looks as if Greek politically parties are equal opportunity employers when it comes to promoting economic incompetents

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

Is that the sound of a can being kicked down the road, I can hear?

[Will]

Fascinating to see that the top twitter hashtag last night, in both Greece AND Germany was: #itsacoup

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

Shouldn't that be #itsacopout?

[Marc]

Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "2011 Will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...

Playing the "ignorant public" card, Marc. Really?

I knew exactly what the proposition was and so did th..."

why accuse me of a need to get over it? I wasn't in favour of it. And your pals may have understood it but plenty didn't. Fact still remains that our democracy is piss poor and pretty unrepresentative. Would AV have fixed it? No. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and find something that can fix it

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

"At present, the UK uses the "first past the post" system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the "alternative vote" system be used instead?"

Bearing in mind how much publicity was around at the time, the AV vote was 32%. And I don't believe it was difficult to understand, do you?

[Patti (baconater)]

I don't understand it, Geoff.

But then again, I don't understand half the muttering a in this thread. :P

[Michael]

I don't think anyone is saying that the referendum question itself was hard to understand, more that the benefits of the proposed system were poorly communicated because the campaign wasn't very good.

[Jim]

Or perhaps the electorate understood it and just didn't like it

[Will]

I think the electorate understood the "first past the post" system, but I doubt if many people understood the alternative vote system. As I recall, the "first past the post" lobby scared everyone with stories of extremist parties getting MPs, and that was all she wrote.

I would certainly agree that the largely lib dem campaign for the alternative vote system was lack lustre. It was always going to struggle because it was only one alternative out of many. Plus neither labour nor the conservatives wanted it (for obvious tactical reasons).

Good to see that there a an agreement on Greece. If they can stick to their promises this could be the turnaround they need. Maybe the UK should offer to help by returning the marbles?

[David]

Patti (baconater) wrote: "I don't understand it, Geoff.

But then again, I don't understand half the muttering a in this thread. :P"

I'll try to explain. I think the main point here is that there are some people called Scotties who are searching for something called a Grexit. From what I can make out, that's a small stone that was once used as currency on the island of Merkel. They're quite rare but may have been referenced in the WWII epic film Tory, Tory, Tory.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

Well RMF, it is good to see that the SNP is showing its true colours. It proves beyond doubt that we need what you would call EVEL as soon as possible. No amount of Nicola Sturgeon's mealy mouthed justification will hide the fact that she and her party cannot and will not be trusted again if they vote on the hunting amendments.

The additional irony is that the amendments bring hunting with dogs into line with Scottish legislation. So, not only are Scottish MPs going against their word by voting against English matters, but also they treat the English as second class citizens who are not allowed to determine that their legislation falls into line with Scotland.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

An interesting analysis by Robert Peston on the Greek crisis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-3350...

[Will]

Geoff, I fear you may mistake the Tory enthusiasm for ripping animals to shreds for gratuitous sport as something that is widely shared.. it isn't. Even in the countryside, where I live. So if the SNP can stop these unpleasant people and their barbarity, so much the better!

[Will]

Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "An interesting analysis by Robert Peston on the Greek crisis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-3350..."

Interesting analysis, Geoff. I think he's right in mos ways. Particularly in the point that the Euro has been sold as an irreversible currency union, and now it is clear that it is not.

I've seen a fascinating piece by an Irish economist on the reason Ireland's brief austerity worked and Greece's period of austerity has utterly failed: most of the Irish Debt was in fact private debt to the banks, and hence after their bailout much of the debt had gone with the bankruptcies - whereas most of the Greek Debt was Sovereign Debt, and so it hasn't gone leaving the country permanently ruined by Germany & the IMF's policies.

[B J]

Will wrote: "Geoff, I fear you may mistake the Tory enthusiasm for ripping animals to shreds for gratuitous sport as something that is widely shared.. it isn't. Even in the countryside, where I live. So if the..."

Yes, Will - but how will you feel if the next time that the SNP MPs decide to vote in Westminster on a non-Scottish issue you don't agree with their stance?

[Will]

It doesn't matter how I feel BJ if it is a non devolved issue.

It is either a UK parliament or it isn't. Can't be both. EVEL should have its own separate assembly if it wants one, like the rest of us do. Scotland & Wales have to bear the cost of our devolved assemblies - quite rightly too. So England should do the same, or alternatively cough up the additional funds to run the Senedd & Holyrood. I don't want my taxes being used to pay for English MPs to vote on EVEL matters. That is inequitable.

[R.M.F.]

Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Well RMF, it is good to see that the SNP is showing its true colours. It proves beyond doubt that we need what you would call EVEL as soon as possible. No amount of Nicola Sturgeon's mealy mouthe..."

For two years, Westminster begged Scotland to stay in the UK. We are a family of equals, was the message. You wanted us, you got us :)

This is a UK PARLIAMENT and SNP MPs are UK MPs, and are legally entitled to vote on this. ;)

If England has a problem with devolution, then tough s**t. English MPs could have gotten off their arses years ago and solved this problem. They are and always will be, a majority at Westminster.

It's not Scotland's f**k**g problem if English MPs are too lazy to sort this out with a federal system or an English Parliament.

Sorry for the foul language, but honest to God, England's MPs could have fixed this years ago, and their whining on this makes me laugh.

[R.M.F.]

B J wrote: "Will wrote: "Geoff, I fear you may mistake the Tory enthusiasm for ripping animals to shreds for gratuitous sport as something that is widely shared.. it isn't. Even in the countryside, where I li..."

See the above reply.

[B J]

But it was your personal feelings (that I happen to agree with) on this one issue that you were expressing. EVEL seems to me to be the cheap option. If we have a separate English Assembly AND a UK parliament we'll be paying through the nose for yet more of the self-important morons.

[R.M.F.]

B J wrote: "But it was your personal feelings (that I happen to agree with) on this one issue that you were expressing. EVEL seems to me to be the cheap option. If we have a separate English Assembly AND a UK ..."

English MPs could double up on this. Most of them seem to have too much time on their hands already.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

You rant is duly noted RMF, but in no way excuses the sheer mendacity of the SNP.

They lied about their financial position if they became independent, they lied regarding post independence EU membership, they lied about the Scottish NHS, the lsit goes on and on.

Then to finish off, they refuse to keep their gentlemen's agreement to not vote on English matters.

Quite frankly, why does anyone believe this bunch any more? How deluded must the people who do believe them be?

[B J]

Not sure I understand that, RMF. If they double up i.e. they sit in both the UK Parliament and an English Assembly then those two bodies couldn't sit simultaneously. If there's a separate building for the English Assembly it's going to stand empty for a lot of the time. Doesn't it make sense for the doubling up to take place in just the one building? If so, then we are effectively left with EVEL.
Quite agree - this should have been sorted out years ago. That's one of the problems with democracies and short-term governments - there's always the temptation to leave the difficult problems for the next government to resolve.

[Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)]

The point is we need EVEL and we need it as soon as possible.

The SNP MPs preposterously claim that EVEL will reduce them to second class MPs. English MPs have been second class since devolution began and the Midlothian Question was first asked. EVEL redresses the balance so that all MPs are equal and as it should be.

[B J]

The piecemeal approach to devolution seems to be gathering pace with the announcement about Cornwall following on from Greater Manchester. I'm forming the impression that we'll end up with a load of Assemblies including The English Assembly For All The Little Bits That Didn't Quite Make It Into One Of The Big Bits.

[Marc]

we just don't need any of these representatives if we the electorate pulled our own thumbs out of our a**es and took responsiblity for ruling ourselves by pure plebiscite. Then you wouldn't need any assemblies or Parliaments. But then that would entail a level of engagement with politics and the issues that would keep people away out of the pub, so it will never happen

[R.M.F.]

B J wrote: "Not sure I understand that, RMF. If they double up i.e. they sit in both the UK Parliament and an English Assembly then those two bodies couldn't sit simultaneously. If there's a separate building ..."

If it were up to me, no new building would be needed. English MPs could have allocated days (perhaps Thursdays and Fridays) to sort out English devolution issues, and the other days devoted to UK business, where all MPs would vote.

Or, you could get the lazy buggers in at the weekend or cut their holidays, which are way to generous in my view.