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message 751:
by
Jim
(new)
Jul 04, 2015 07:00AM
If you think that being a digital currency means anybody can issue it, try issuing US dollars, another digital currency and see how long you get away with it :-)
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R.M.F wrote: "Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Of course, if you had the Scottiepoond, and linked it to the rest of the UK, you would have no control of it. You would therefore still have no f...It's old name was the Groat, which I quite like TBO. "
rhymes with Scrote
Jim wrote: "If you think that being a digital currency means anybody can issue it, try issuing US dollars, another digital currency and see how long you get away with it :-)"I was making the point that digital currencies could be the future. Personally, I'm a great believer in Scotland having its own currency.
For me, Sterling's a clapped out old nag that's seen better days. I don't want to be tied to that.
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Of course, if you had the Scottiepoond, and linked it to the rest of the UK, you would have no control of it. You would therefore s..."And boat, moat, goat, vote... :)
R.M.F wrote: "Jim wrote: "If you think that being a digital currency means anybody can issue it, try issuing US dollars, another digital currency and see how long you get away with it :-)"I was making the point that digital currencies could be the future. Personally, I'm a great believer in Scotland having its own currency.
For me, Sterling's a clapped out old nag that's seen better days. I don't want to be tied to that."
I'm sorry, you are once again showing that you have absolutely no idea how economics works. Sterling is one of the most stable currencies in the World. The danger from Scotland's perspective is the danger that the Scottiepoond will be unable to track Sterling because the Scottish government will live up to the same financial understanding as you, as evinced in the referendum debates where the SNP could produce nothing to show they had any fiscal policy at all. Which was the main reason why they lost the referendum.
If they carry on that way, if they peg to Sterling should you become independent you will go through the same pain that the UK went through in the 1990s when it tried to follow the Euro.
When that happens, people like Warren Buffett rub their hands with glee.
"the same pain that the UK went through in the 1990s when it tried to follow the Euro."I'm old enough to remember that and the humiliation of Black Wednesday, and yet, the same people responsible for that disaster are still lecturing others on economics. The nerve of these people.
Well, this will set the cat among the pigeons.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ec...
Don't read this RMF as you don't believe anything the Telegraph puts out.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Well, this will set the cat among the pigeons.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ec...
Don't read this RMF as you don't believe anything ..."
And who can blame me after the Frenchgate farce.
R.M.F wrote: "And who can blame me after the Frenchgate farce."What, when the balance of evidence showed that a) The leak came from the LibDem Scottish Minister, b) Nicola Sturgeon denied she said it, then c) the investigation said that she probably did say it. It was witnessed by the diplomat that wrote it down.
But, of course, you won't believe that because it would cause a natural disconnect in your thinking. You said it yourself earlier in this thread, the best outcome for her cause was to have the Conservatives in government. You knew that, she knew that. When you put these things together and her propensity for unrehearsed statements, yes, you know, deep down, she said it.
Which leads me to my next point. You are now suffering from cognitive dissonance. On the one hand you disbelieve the source, but on the other hand you want to believe the contents of the report. Life is tough, huh?
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Well, this will set the cat among the pigeons.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ec...
Don't read this RMF as you don't believe anything ..."
It was in the Guardian two days ago Geoff. Torygraph late as ever...
The concern really is that -apart from the Chair, Lagrande, all the IMF economists have been saying for months that the proposals from the EU finance ministers are not fir for purpose and can't be presented to the Board of the IMF as they won't work...
Interesting pre budget report in the Grauniad.Camaron's advisors say that employers should be forced to pay the living wage, to reduce the number of workers having to claim in work benefits. These scroungers apparently include 40% of the DWP staff... Can't wait to hear how IDS is going to incentivise himself yo raise his staff's wages...
Yes, but Legarde is ex EU, so she understands how essential it is for the survival of the Euro that Greece is not given a get out clause. Because if you give that to Greece it will have to be given to Portugal, Spain and Italy. The first two could be afforded, just, but Italy? No hope at all. If Italy defaults then the Euro game will be over sooner than expected. Don't get me wrong, the Euro experiment is doomed anyway, it was the minute they introduced it before creating a European federal state. But forcing Greece into becoming a third world state, is worth doing to kick the can down the road.
The biggest problem is, when the Euro collapses, we will have the biggest crash ever. It will dwarf the 1930s depression. This is the sort of thing that causes wars, big wars, as everything collapses. Remember, it was only the rearmament in the late 1930s that ended the Great Depression.
I've yet to be convinced that the euro collapse will be that bad. Remember that there's a lot of people with a lot of their reputation invested in the survival and success of the euro, (to say nothing of their salaries and pension pots in it)Initially we had a lot of hype about how the euro was a success.
What that became obvious nonsense they shifted to giving us a lot of hype about how it had to be supported or it would be the end of the world.
My guess is that the big worry for these people is that it will be 'career defining'
For Greece it's already worse than the 1930s but even if Greece leaves, you could probably still have a euro with Germany and a few others, and France, Italy and the south would go back to their own currencies which would devalue a bit, which would in turn make them competitive and Germany would find things a bit harder.
The real problem is what happens if we have a rise in interest rates? The UK debt is just about affordable at a point where interest rates are nominal. When they get to over 5% it's possible that the repayments cost more than the NHS. Obviously we'll do what we always do and debase the currency because we've got one.
We had a discussion a bit back about the purpose and survival of the Labour party. My guess is that in the next fifty or so years we'll see one of those major shifts and we'll see the whole concept of a welfare state change into something different
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "And who can blame me after the Frenchgate farce."What, when the balance of evidence showed that a) The leak came from the LibDem Scottish Minister, b) Nicola Sturgeon denied she sai..."
Geoff, please stop digging. The whole affair was thoroughly debunked.
Jim wrote: "I've yet to be convinced that the euro collapse will be that bad. Remember that there's a lot of people with a lot of their reputation invested in the survival and success of the euro, (to say noth..."In a nutshell, the UK is screwed?
message 766:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 05, 2015 04:37AM)
(new)
R.M.F wrote: "Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Geoff, please stop digging. The whole affair was thoroughly debunked."That's not what the investigation concluded:
A leaked civil service memo which alleged the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wanted David Cameron to win the general election was an “accurate” record of a conversation with a French official, an investigation has concluded.
Source:
http://www.world24monitor.com/2015/05...
Which is attributed to The Independent.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "A leaked civil service memo which alleged the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wanted David Cameron to win the general election was an “accurate” record of a conversation with a French official, an investigation has concluded...."
It has to be said that Nicola Sturgeon's comments made perfect sense. Not merely her comments about the Labour leadership but it's also so much easier to be right when you're in opposition as opposed to having to compromise when you're part of government. She'd seen what that did to the Libdems, why on earth would she want to risk that working with Labour?
Her comments were perceptive and to the point
I think that just about sums her up Jim (whether one agrees with her or not)
The key word is 'alleged.'I feel sorry for the French who got dragged into this sorry saga.
Leaving aside Scotland, another reason why I don't trust the Telegraph was the HSBC affair.
Peter Oborne walked away when the Telegraph threw journalistic integrity out the window.
Hell, I don't trust any newspapers these days, going back to Iraq 2002, when they became establishment lackeys.
message 771:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 05, 2015 10:05AM)
(new)
R.M.F wrote: "The key word is 'alleged.'"The Diplomatic Service are trained to be accurate. It's the only thing that the Foreign Office can afford to accept. Sturgeon is unused to dealing with this and probably forgot that the person was in the room. I would trust his notation above any politician, whatever the stripe.
By the way, where does it say alleged, or did you just decide to add it? You must admit, it's the sort of thing she would say.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "The key word is 'alleged.'"The Diplomatic Service are trained to be accurate. It's the only thing that the Foreign Office can afford to accept. Sturgeon is unused to dealing with ..."
It was yourself that used the word alleged in an earlier post.
R.M.F wrote: "It was yourself that used the word alleged in an earlier post."I used the term alleged as I was not in a position to say it was certain. However, the report on the investigation should be taken with its own reservations, where appropriate, and not mine.
Are the Germans now going to get a referendum to ask if they're willing to pay for a Greek bail out?
They didn't get one over the Trillion Euros of Quantative Easing (soft invented money) given to the banks, so why should they?
What would happen, I wonder, if Greece left the Euro Zone but kept using the Euro?
One of the Balkans Macedonia, is it? countries does that already.There's no legal mechanism to expel Greece, of course - and Spain and Portugal must be watching anxiously.
So the French ambassador denied Sturgeon said it. The French Consul-General denied Sturgeon said it.
The SoS for Scotland denied Sturgeon said it.
And now, thanks to an IPSO investigation, The Telegraph are now saying Sturgeon never said it...
Despite this overwhelming evidence, some people still doubt it...
I know a brick wall when I see one :)
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "What would happen, I wonder, if Greece left the Euro Zone but kept using the Euro?"Technically, they can use the Euro for international debts, but a different currency for their domestic situation. A lot of countries had this before the Euro officially came into being.
Jim wrote: "Are the Germans now going to get a referendum to ask if they're willing to pay for a Greek bail out?"Nein.
message 781:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 06, 2015 03:31AM)
(new)
R.M.F wrote: "Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "What would happen, I wonder, if Greece left the Euro Zone but kept using the Euro?"Technically, they can use the Euro for international debts, but a different currency for their domestic situation. A lot of countries had this before the Euro officially came into being."
No, I mean they continue to use the Euro domestically and internationally.
I would have thought that all members of the Euro would have to give permission for Greece to be ejected. Not sure they could get that.
Merkel has, unusually for someone so astute, allowed the EU finance ministers to paint her into a corner.I don't think She expected the greek government to actually stand up for what the greek citizens wanted from them: a genuine plan to move forward afetr 5 years of failed austerity
A number of people have asked, apart from political survival, what has Merkel really achieved during her time in office? I must admit I struggled.
The Greeks haven't got a plan. After decades of amassing huge debts through overspending they are now attacking the bodies who are trying to help them. Who is going to bail out a country that won't face up to its lack of financial prudence? The Greek government is gambling on the EU caving in. They might be in for a shock.
Will wrote: "One of the Balkans Macedonia, is it? countries does that already.There's no legal mechanism to expel Greece, of course - and Spain and Portugal must be watching anxiously."
don't think Macedonia is in the EU?
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "A number of people have asked, apart from political survival, what has Merkel really achieved during her time in office? I must admit I struggled."exactly the same as Blair I would say. Happened to be in power when the economy was sailing along quite brightly, didn't feel the compunction to enact all that much legislation. Except the messianic war mongering
I don't think we in the UK should be feeling smug over this. We've got another housing bubble ready to burst any time soon, and our fiscal management isn't anything to write home about.
Marc wrote: "Will wrote: "One of the Balkans Macedonia, is it? countries does that already.There's no legal mechanism to expel Greece, of course - and Spain and Portugal must be watching anxiously."
don't think Macedonia is in the EU? ..."
To quote the Wiki
It is referred to within the UN as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", pending a resolution of the long-running dispute with Greece about the country's name.
On the NATO summit held in Bucharest in April 2008, Macedonia failed to gain an invitation to join the organisation because Greece vetoed the move after the dispute over the name issue
n October 2012 the EU Enlargement Commissioner Štefan Füle proposed a start of accession negotiations with Macedonia for the fourth time, while the previous efforts were blocked each time by Greece.
Anybody notice a pattern....
message 789:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 06, 2015 06:32AM)
(new)
I take your point Will, but by the same token by no means are Greek the only bad guys is this sad affair.The EU were so desperate to get all the nations into the Euro that they fudged the joining criteria to such an extent that they were no long fit for purpose.
Add into that the fact that Germany needed Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece in the Euro to keep its value so low that their rampant export drive could still go full steam ahead without any fear of them becoming uncompetitive because of the high level of the currency. If you like, Germany used up the spare export capacity of these countries.
There are no heroes or villains in this, none of the nations comes out black or white. All are culpable. The biggest problem is that the cart was put before the horse. The Euro was used to federalise the EU, when it should have been federalised before the Euro was introduced. Thank you Mr Dellores.
As for the EU caving in. After the revelation of the IMF document that Leguarde tried so hard to suppress, there may well be considerably less appetite to hold Greece's feet to the fire than there was. And if Leguarde goes then it's open season.
Governments and financial institutions all conspired to fudge things for their own gain.I'm not surprised that your ordinary Greek citizen has decided to stick two fingers up at the world.
Michael Cargill wrote: "Governments and financial institutions all conspired to fudge things for their own gain.I'm not surprised that your ordinary Greek citizen has decided to stick two fingers up at the world."
I entirely agree, I suspect that had I been Greek, I too would have voted No.
Who wants to be part of an economic system that seems to happy to shaft you
Greek's mismanagement, Will, goes back decades and runs right across the spectrum.First I think we have to credit the new government with a desire to actually change things, but they are entirely right that the deal on offer - previously rejected last summer by the former right wing government don't forget -means that in 10 years time, Greece will have suffered enormous hardship, loss of its youth abroad and an economic devastation unseen in the EU so far - for what? Debt to fall from 129% of GDP to a projected 110%?
Who in their right minds would vote to condemn their children to that?
Hmm, I am not so sure that raising the retirement age to 67 would be massive economic hardship. It would put them on a par with many of the nations who would be lending them money.or tackling tax avoidance.
or raising VAT to similar levels as elsewhere
"austerity" sounds such a painful thing until you start to look at the details.
And here we go again from Will (;-) )Indeed, the devil is the detail, isn't it? Like the 49% youth unemployment, the three generations of families largely dependant upon the state pension of the eldest (roughly the EU average, despite the strange notions put about by the Mail...)Standardising all rates sounds great until you include stuff like electricity and medicines - and the rate is much higher than our VAT rate, too.
There are a lot of accepted reforms, like the pension age and the reduction in early retirement availability.. but as your article pointed out, there a lot of elderly people in Greece (especially now that so many of the young have left the country to find work - that's an uncomfortable scenario for us to contemplate too isn't it?
Five years of austerity measures has wrecked the economy, reduced GDP by 25%, and left Greece with no real prospect of growth. Suggesting the major public assets should be sold off, and their prospective income taken away for a short term repayment is so short sighted it is risible!
I can tell you that, as an industry insider, changing taxation habits and behaviour is not a quick fix but something that takes a good thirty years. It's taken us longer than that, and the use of pretty extreme measures, to reduce tax dodging in the building industry. In which we have been so very clearly successful.
But they haven't had five years of austerity! That's the whole point. They agreed a programme of measures with their creditors. Some of these measures would not have harmed citizens, such as reforming tax laws and privatising state run businesses. If they had done some or all of that they would not be in the current mess. They would have had money to invest in growth, such as by improving tourism infrastructure. They agreed these measures, but then didn't do them.
Greece is like a bankrupt person who can't stop spending and is then surprised that no-one wants to lend them money.
But they haven't had five years of austerity! That's the whole point. They agreed a programme of measures with their creditors. Some of these measures would not have harmed citizens, such as reforming tax laws and privatising state run businesses. If they had done some or all of that they would not be in the current mess. They would have had money to invest in growth, such as by improving tourism infrastructure. They agreed these measures, but then didn't do them.
Greece is like a bankrupt person who can't stop spending and is then surprised that no-one wants to lend them money.
Let's look at that article in a bit more detail, shall we?Tax changes
First example is VAT. Six rates of VAT. Well, we have four rates: STandard, reduced rate and Zero rate. The fourth one is VAT Exemption, which is different to zero rating. The standard rate is still 3% higher than ours. The statement about allowing lower VAT on the islands to cause tax dodging is no different to the carousel fraud that goes on in the rest of the EU, including the UK. THe UK loses between 1.65 and 2.64 billion annually. The EU goverments lose £170 billion a year. This represents twice the EU's annual budget!
Pensions are incredibly difficult to reform, as the Chancellor has recently found when he released pensioners limitations and left the door open for every shark and carpetbagger free to plunder the hapless.
The privatisations have not gone well. Could this be because the companies that want to buy these assets want to get the lowest possible price for them?
ERT was closed down by the right wing goverment because it refused to come into line with the governments views. What the BBC fails to say is that ERT was closed down then operated by its staff that worked without wages. In the meantime, the right wing government opened a new state broadcaster that they could control. That wasn't cost control, that was censorship.
Not really one of the BBC's best articles, I would suggest.
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