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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
Geoff, you're taking to one of the few very people in the world who doesn't really care that much for money. Even if Scottish independence resulted in Scotland becoming the poorest nation on earth, I would still vote Yes every time. Why? Because it's democracy and self-determination I believe in for Scotland.
Jim wrote: "That's why every time there's been a poll in England the English have a majority for the Scots going, we want to empower you :-)"I used to live in England for a few years. Love the country and the people. I'm not afraid to admit I'm an Anglophile.
There's no denying both countries profited hugely from the Union, and I will miss Britain, but I think both countries should shake hands, thank each other for the good times, and then go their separate ways.
Go their separate ways? And how exactly do we do that? Build a wall, dig a ditch, float Scotland off towards the north pole?Not to mention giving Scotland a huge loan/ handout for the debts it will run up fro day one.
And ignoring the wishes of more than 50% of the electorate.
And financing the cost of such a separation at a time when we ought to be saving money and not wasting it on meaningless flags and jingoism.
And entrusting the governance of a nation that can't afford to run itself to a party that doesn't tell the electorate the truth about austerity?
It us time to face facts. Mel Gibson is Australian. At a time of economic difficulty we all need Scottish independence like a chicken needs a flag. It is a massive and irrelevant waste of money that doesn't solve anything.
"Go their separate ways? And how exactly do we do that? Build a wall, dig a ditch, float Scotland off towards the north pole?"I have no idea what this means! :)
"Not to mention giving Scotland a huge loan/ handout for the debts it will run up fro day one."
You don't have to if you don't want too. You're the boss of the politicians. Make it clear to them on election day.
"And ignoring the wishes of more than 50% of the electorate."
We on the yes side didn't ignore them. They won, we accepted the result. We can still campaign for another referendum, that's our democratic right. The Tories didn't quit in 1997 when they lost.
"And financing the cost of such a separation at a time when we ought to be saving money and not wasting it on meaningless flags and jingoism."
It's the Tory party talking about bombing targets in Syria, whilst standing in front of the Union Jack.
"And entrusting the governance of a nation that can't afford to run itself to a party that doesn't tell the electorate the truth about austerity?"
That's a decision for the Scottish electorate. If they want to elect idiots to run the country, that is their God given right.
"It us time to face facts. Mel Gibson is Australian. At a time of economic difficulty we all need Scottish independence like a chicken needs a flag. It is a massive and irrelevant waste of money that doesn't solve anything."
I'm genuinely perplexed. What's Mel Gibson got to do with Scottish independence? ;)
Will wrote: "And ignoring the wishes of more than 50% of the electorate.And financing the cost of such a separation at a time when we ought to be saving money and not wasting it on meaningless flags and jingoism.
"
74% of our electorate have been ignored because they did not vote for the government
Meaningless flags and Jingoism is something that great britain never practises in its foreign policy then? Remember when Cameron & Sarcosi rushed over to Libya to take the plaudits for 'liberating' Libya? Recall the invasion of the Falklands and the flag waving for the fleet as it set sail from Portsmouth? Not to mention the lionising of heroes such as Corporal H Jones as the government played the patriot game in order to sell us the war
Marc wrote: "Not to mention the lionising of heroes such as Corporal H Jones as the government played the patriot game in order to sell us the war"I think you will find he was a Colonel not a Corporal, Marc.
All countries are, by their nature, Jingoistic. Even those who claim they only want peace. Von Clausewitz said: All diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means.
sorry, you're quite right, Colonel not Corporal. Clausewitz certainly said that, and Palmerston was the first Prime Minister to formally link war with uniting a population back home for political purposes. But there are plenty of countries who pursue diplomacy without bullets and bombs, Norway being the obvious example as they try tirelessly and probably fruitlessly to sort out Palestine
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jul 02, 2015 03:18PM)
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R.M.F wrote: "Geoff, you're taking to one of the few very people in the world who doesn't really care that much for money. Even if Scottish independence resulted in Scotland becoming the poorest nation on earth, I would still vote Yes every time. Why? Because it's democracy and self-determination I believe in for Scotland. "
RMF, do you not see the howling contradiction in what you have said. You believe in democracy, yet you do not accept the will of your own people.
You may not have any interest in money, yet are so selfish that you would allow your fellow men and women to die of starvation. And have no doubts, they will die of starvation if there is no money.
So do you believe, then, that you are so self centred and selfish that no one else matters? That's not democracy, that's Maoism. I presume you know where that went - millions dead.
So, your basic premise is that you will set the people free, even if it kills them.
Never mind flag waving, what about EVEL? I've been reading more about it, and this is shaping up to be a complete and utter constitutional shambles! What are the Tories thinking?
The speaker get to decide what is and isn't an English only law? He's supposed to be neutral!!
If the Tory majority fades away over the next few years, he will come under massive pressure to load the dice for the Tories. If he doesn't, he's out, and his neutrality goes up in smoke...
The Scots will achieve independence, certainly within my lifetime. It's a very wooly notion of a referendum once a generation. The politics will determine whether they have to wait 20 years fro another one (they won't). If the EU vote is to pull out, then Scotland will have another referendum 3 years after the last one. Whereas AV has no political momentum in it favour for us to ever vote again on it, let alone another one in 14-15 years time.
Marc wrote: "sorry, you're quite right, Colonel not Corporal. Clausewitz certainly said that, and Palmerston was the first Prime Minister to formally link war with uniting a population back home for political purposes. But there are plenty of countries who pursue diplomacy with bullets and bombs, Norway being the obvious example as they try tirelessly and probably fruitlessly to sort out Palestine"
Second error of the night, Marc. more research required on your part I would suggest.
Are you unaware that Norway is a full member of NATO? They may or may not be involved in Palestine. I suspect that was attempted humour on your part. They were, however, involved in the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
The trouble with Norway is they are such a peace loving and pacifistic country aren't they? Perhaps not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
My thanks goes to a very good Norwegian friend who laughed out loud when she saw your post.
I'd be interested to know what they contributed to the modern campaigns. Aircraft, troops on the ground?By Palestine I meant the diplomacy of the Oslo Accords and all that followed when the world came closest to a settlement in that benighted area of the globe
Marc wrote: "I'd be interested to know what they contributed to the modern campaigns. Aircraft, troops on the ground?By Palestine I meant the diplomacy of the Oslo Accords and all that followed when the world came closest to a settlement in that benighted area of the globe."
I think you'll find that Oslo would have wished that their name had been left of the whole benighted affair. A report conducted on behalf of Norway's Foreign Office showed that they merely acted as the mouthpiece of the most powerful party. You therefore got jingoism by proxy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Ac...
Marc wrote: "The Scots will achieve independence, certainly within my lifetime. It's a very wooly notion of a referendum once a generation. The politics will determine whether they have to wait 20 years fro ano..."I'm ideologically against the Conservatives, but taking a step back, their incompetence astounds me. Their attempt to abolish the Human Rights Act is going down quicker than the Titanic, and this farce over EVEL, could sink the Union.
R.M.F wrote: "I'm ideologically against the Conservatives, but taking a step back, their incompetence astounds me. Their attempt to abolish the Human Rights Act is going down quicker than the Titanic, and this farce over EVEL, could sink the Union."Isn't it strange that the only people who see it as a farce are the Scottish Nationalists?
The biggest mistake that the Scottish Nationalists are making in Parliament is that they are isolating themselves daily.The way to get things done in Westminster is to form cross bench alliances. All the SNP MPs is antagonise the other MPs with their childish antics and cry wolf tactics, like in the case of the English Votes for English Legislation. This was agreed in the Smith Commission agreement.
These proposals level the playing field that allows all MPs to be equal. Up till now, Scottish MPs could vote on English matters, but English MPs were prevented doing the same to Scottish matters. That is true inequality.
Why should Scottish MPs have greater priviledge?
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "The biggest mistake that the Scottish Nationalists are making in Parliament is that they are isolating themselves daily.The way to get things done in Westminster is to form cross bench alliances...."
If I've said it once, Geoff, I've said it a thousand times. Any effect on English spending, has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK.
English MPs voting to cut NHS spending in England affects NHS spending in Wales, Scotland and NI, but under these proposals, the Celtic MPs would be barred from voting on this...
The SNP wanted FFA for Scotland, but hundreds of English MPs voted it down..
In short, it's English votes for English laws, English votes for Scottish laws, and nobody else voting on English laws...
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I'm ideologically against the Conservatives, but taking a step back, their incompetence astounds me. Their attempt to abolish the Human Rights Act is going down quicker than the Titan..."I don't, I'm welcoming this with open arms. It speeds up the end of the UK.
Geoff, I'm surprised you can't see the potential for constitutional deadlock that will arise from EVEL. The solution of course is a federal UK, but Westminster doesn't like to give up power.
R.M.F wrote: "If I've said it once, Geoff, I've said it a thousand times. Any effect on English spending, has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK."You can say it as many times as you like RMF, it doesn't make it correct. That is something that you and the SNP MPs have in common.
R.M.F wrote: "I don't, I'm welcoming this with open arms. It speeds up the end of the UK."If you think that the people of Scotland are so gullible as to believe your bizarre posturing, why do you live there?
Having lived in Scotland, own property in Scotland and voted no to separation, I know they are far more canny than you give them credit for. That's why all the polls said that you would win the referendum that you convincing lost.
If you believe in democracy why don't you act like a democrat and accept the will of the people? You lost, sanity won, get over it.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "If I've said it once, Geoff, I've said it a thousand times. Any effect on English spending, has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK."You can say it as many times as you like RM..."
Please enlighten me on how the UK is funded, and where Scotland, Wales, and NI, get their money from.
"If you think that the people of Scotland are so gullible as to believe your bizarre posturing, why do you live there?"Are you SERIOUSLY asking why a Scottish person lives in Scotland? Please tell me this is an April fool's joke :)
I give up... :)
R.M.F wrote: ""If you think that the people of Scotland are so gullible as to believe your bizarre posturing, why do you live there?"Are you SERIOUSLY asking why a Scottish person lives in Scotland? Please tell me this is an April fool's joke :)
I give up... :)"
No, I was asking why you live amongst people you have no respect for.
I give up... :) Promise?
"No, I was asking why you live amongst people you have no respect for."When did I mention a lack of respect? Evidence please, or this is a strawman.
R.M.F wrote: ""No, I was asking why you live amongst people you have no respect for."When did I mention a lack of respect? Evidence please, or this is a strawman."
You belief is that the majority of Scottish people have been so deluded that they voted to stay in the UK. How more disrespectful can you get?
Or, do you believe that the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and you should honour Alec Salmond's promise that the referendum would not be repeated in a generation.
the nature of politics being that Salmond said it, but new leader, new broom, new slate Sturgeon can probably get away with agitating for another referendum after the next Holyrood elections or if UK votes to leave the EU, whichever is the sooner. You know, similar political legerdemain that saw Farage step down as leader only to be reinstated a couple of days later. Not sure even Sepp Blatter is going to be able to pull that one off
"You belief is that the majority of Scottish people have been so deluded that they voted to stay in the UK. How more disrespectful can you get?"Evidence I said this, please.
"Or, do you believe that the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and you should honour Alec Salmond's promise that the referendum would not be repeated in a generation."
I'm not Alex Salmond. I'm not beholden to any promises he made. Neither are the Scottish people.
Did the Labour party quit in the 1980s when it lost GE after GE?
Did the Tories throw in the towel after 1997?
This is a democracy. If I want to peacefully campaign for another referendum, that is my God given right.
The Yes side did respect the vote. Do you see violence in Scotland? UN peacekeepers? Russian tanks? :) Of course not.
The people of Scotland will decided its future, not politicians. You talk of a generation before another referendum, but if the Scottish people decided tomorrow that they wanted independence...
Marc wrote: "the nature of politics being that Salmond said it, but new leader, new broom, new slate Sturgeon can probably get away with agitating for another referendum after the next Holyrood elections or if ..."At last, somebody gets it. I hate it when I agree with you :)
"This is a democracy. If I want to peacefully campaign for another referendum, that is my God given right. 'i remain unconvinced that god is a democrat
frankly I have got to the stage where I no longer care.It's entirely up to the Scots.If they don't like it, leave. Just go. Just don't expect us to send any money and for the love of mike stop going on about it. Make your minds up and if you're in agreement go. If the Scots are not in agreement argue amongst yourselves until you've made your minds up but don't expect the rest of us to be particularly interested
We're not the only ones thinking like that. I've just remembered that in the pub a couple of nights ago the SNP was mentioned and someone said they'd heard that Longleat Safari Park (famous for its drive-through lion enclosure) had amended its admission charges to include "Scots on bicycles free".Maybe I should point out that it was a Scot who said it.
My greatest concern is that they get independence, turn into a Northern Greece and then come scuttling back to be reunified and expect those they left to pick up the debt bill.
Jim wrote: "frankly I have got to the stage where I no longer care.It's entirely up to the Scots.If they don't like it, leave. Just go. Just don't expect us to send any money and for the love of mike stop goin..."And yet, whenever I put on the news, I'm bombarded with England's problems: housing crisis in London, HS2, UKIP, hospital waiting lists in Swindon, travellers camping in the middle of English villages, UKIP, not enough people playing cricket in England, Kevin bloody Pietersen, UKIP, Nigel Farage, UKIP, EU referendum, Royal palaces needing fixed, UKIP, BBC bias, UKIP, people buying holiday cottages in Cornwall and pricing out the locals, UKIP
I could go on and on...
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "My greatest concern is that they get independence, turn into a Northern Greece and then come scuttling back to be reunified and expect those they left to pick up the debt bill."Because nobody in Scotland has ever paid tax.
The city I live in, Dundee, had the highest casualty rates of men killed and wounded in the Great War.
1 in 4 Dundee men were killed or wounded in WW1
But according to Geoff, Scotland has done nothing for the UK, but sponge from England...
R.M.F wrote: "I could go on and on... ..."You just did, feel better now :-)
Actually the Royal Palaces are also Scots, and strangely enough they might even let the Scots vote in the EU referendum. But if BBC Scotland covers the other stuff, complain to them, not to the English
Not only the Royal palaces, but Westminster itself needs the asbestos removing or some such
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I could go on and on... ..."You just did, feel better now :-)
Actually the Royal Palaces are also Scots, and strangely enough they might even let the Scots vote in the EU referendu..."
We did complain to Westminster. Scotland has been asking for broadcasting to be devolved for years. Westminster keeps saying no.
We asked for FFA. 90% of Scottish MPs wanted it, but hundreds of English MPs said No, no, no.
And you wonder why we complain :)
Marc wrote: "Not only the Royal palaces, but Westminster itself needs the asbestos removing or some such"Asbestos is the least of its problems. Its the scumbags, the time servers, the lackeys, etc etc that need removing.
R.M.F wrote: "We asked for FFA. 90% of Scottish MPs wanted it, but hundreds of English MPs said No, no, no. ..."
You can have full fiscal autonomy when you're independent and it's not our currency you're using
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "We asked for FFA. 90% of Scottish MPs wanted it, but hundreds of English MPs said No, no, no. ..."
You can have full fiscal autonomy when you're independent and it's not our curren..."
The pound is not the sole preserve of England, and as an international currency, we could use it if we were independent. Hell, the North Koreans could use it if they wanted to, and nobody could stop them.
I think we could spot any North Korean Pounds that replaced Her Maj with Kim Jong Un. And as for who they'd replace jane Austen on the back with...
Marc wrote: "I think we could spot any North Korean Pounds that replaced Her Maj with Kim Jong Un. And as for who they'd replace jane Austen on the back with..."Anyway, I think we've been banging on about Scotland for a while now, lets move on too something else. There's hardly any mention of UKIP these days, lets change that :)
R.M.F wrote: "The pound is not the sole preserve of England, and as an international currency, we could use it if we were independent. Hell, the North Koreans could use it if they wanted to, and nobody could stop them. ..."
When you were an independent country and had your own currency you had the £ Scots. Go back to that. Of course you can use the £ Sterling, but it can only be issued by the Bank of England. Obviously Scots banks can continue to issue promissory notes which might or might not be accepted.
Of course, if you had the Scottiepoond, and linked it to the rest of the UK, you would have no control of it. You would therefore still have no fiscal autonomy.
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "The pound is not the sole preserve of England, and as an international currency, we could use it if we were independent. Hell, the North Koreans could use it if they wanted to, and no..."It's all digital currency these days. I fear the days of paper notes are over.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Of course, if you had the Scottiepoond, and linked it to the rest of the UK, you would have no control of it. You would therefore still have no fiscal autonomy."It's old name was the Groat, which I quite like TBO.
R.M.F wrote: "It's all digital currency these days. I fear the days of paper notes are over."It doesn't make any difference as to the delivery method, it is a promissory note by proxy if you use a credit or debit card.
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You really have to be kidding.
Even without oil and gas, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.
Facts
In 2011-12, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at
£46.3 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of
North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £47.2 billion
(8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of
North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at
£56.9 billion (9.9% of UK total public sector revenue).
In 2011-12, total public sector expenditure for Scotland, including a per capita share of
UK debt interest payments, was £64.5 billion, 9.3% of UK public sector expenditure. Source: http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0041/004...
Have you been using Alex Salmond's calculator, RMF? If so, you need to throw it away and use a real one.
I never, for a moment, thought that you had voted to stay in the UK.
You have been drawn into the SNP Reality Distortion Field, unfortunately.
Also, comparing Scotland's finances to years of Westminster mis-management, is also risible. The UK is in pretty bad financial shape, is it not, and about to get worse?
We have never said that we were not in a mess. We had to bail out RBS to the tune of £45.8bn. If Scotland had had to pay that out of the £56.9bn you generate, you'd have £11.1bn left over. Bearing in mind you need £64.5bn to cover your spending, you'd have been finished. No ifs, no buts, finished. Mass unemployment with no money to pay benefits and having to borrow at 5-6% interest would have caused massive malnutrition. The NHS would stop. Not slow, not cut. Stop. No money, no electricity, no drugs, no doctors, no nurses, unless they worked for nothing.