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message 5501:
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R.M.F.
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Jun 03, 2017 02:05AM
Even got a new name for that party: The Hadrian Party: building a future for the north of England since AD 200 :)
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surely Hadrian's eponymous wall was a marker of division and separation not unity?
The Great North Party?Naw, that's what we'd have after a hockey game.
Finally, you brought the two-four! Set it next the Zamboni, eh?
https://youtu.be/qqlF6zKluAc
R.M.F wrote: "To expand on my earlier point - that's what I'm talking about. The North of England needs political clout. So people wouldn't want to be run by the SNP, which is fair enough. But if you had a new party dedicated to the North, fully independent, but willing to ally with the SNP, Greens etc etc on certain issues, then that extra political clout could get more for the north. Theoretically.
Brexit has opened up fault lines in Britain between North and South, rural and urban. In my opinion, there is a gap in the market for a dedicated north of England party.
Naturally, of course, that's for you guys to solve... ..."
But actually Brexit is a case where the North might well be getting what it wanted, so from our point of view is a sign the system works.
The other problem you have is that you seem to think a Northern Party would be a natural ally for SNP, Greens etc. But actually it might be a more industrial working class party who would regard the greens as a lot of idiots wanting to destroy the only decent jobs we've got.
Similarly the north was traditional Labour territory, but again, the classic quote is that Labour owed more to Methodism than Marx. Being pro-nuclear, pro-industry, and English, there could be very little overlap with either the SNP or the Greens
I suspect that in reality it isn't all that big a problem. As with Brexit, the voice of the North isn't drowned out because we're part of England and in English issues there's plenty of agreement with the South of England
I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt
Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"I suspect that it depends by area. In the south I can well believe it. In a lot of the North, when I was younger, it was entirely a working class movement.
I can remember a meeting where a young female teacher said that marxist class analysis proved that teachers were part of the proletariat. An elderly union official just looked at her and said, "If you use marxist class analysis, you're an intellectual"
But I've talked to Labour people in the south and can see where the middle class guilt comes in. Also at times a genuine dislike of working class people and what they stand for :-)
I think it applied to the Fabians and any industrialist who converted to socialism, like New Lanark etc.Clearly the likes of Kier Hardie were not middle class
Have you looked at the union movements in North America, especially the UAW and CAW? In the UK, NUT?
My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the labour parties came about at the same time as the unions.
By labour parties, I mean 'left wing'.
There are many left wing parties globally. They are known by many names.
yes the Unions were very important in the formation of the Labour Party. They themselves owed a debt to former democratic movements such as the Chartists. But as usual, it was the middle class leadership & idea mongers who formalised the structures and aims in the creation of the Labour Party, with the drive & momentum coming from below.
Marc wrote: "I think it applied to the Fabians and any industrialist who converted to socialism, like New Lanark etc.Clearly the likes of Kier Hardie were not middle class"
yes that makes sense
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Have you looked at the union movements in North America, especially the UAW and CAW? In the UK, NUT?
My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the labour parties came about at the same time as the unions.
By labour parties, I mean 'left wing'.
There are many left wing parties globally. They are known by many names. ..."
In the UK you have Ernest Bevin's remark in 1935 that the Labour party 'grew out of the bowels of the trade-union movement'!
So he would agree with you :-)
Remember that in the UK, with a first past the post system, our parties are actually coalitions. So the Labour party has in it people who in other systems would be Social democrats, Socialists and even some who'd probably fit into marxist parties.
(This isn't party political, the conservatives are also a coalition.)
It has the advantage that with our system the coalition has to campaign on a join manifesto. Under a PR system individual parties campaign on their own manifestos which they then tear up in the smoke filled rooms as they put together a government. Our parties do the smoke filled rooms bit before the manifesto is written.
and then go on to ignore much that is written in it as a supposed policy or commitment once in power, or as with T.May, during the campaign itself!
Marc wrote: "and then go on to ignore much that is written in it as a supposed policy or commitment once in power, or as with T.May, during the campaign itself!"but it does at least mean that the House of Lords can legitimately block stuff that isn't in the manifesto.
At some point the Conservatives will probably finish the reform of the house of lords. Easy way would be to introduce a top age limit
Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Certainly not the case in Glasgow.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Certainly not the case in Glasgow."
More middle class abandonment ? ;-)
Jim wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Certainly not the case in Glasgow."
More middle class ab..."
That was a time when the working classes empowered themselves, and looked to solve their own problems through direct action.
In Ukraine & Civil War Spain perhaps, both crushed by Stalin
Marc wrote: "In Ukraine & Civil War Spain perhaps, both crushed by Stalin"Yes, or even in the Russian and French revolutions which used working class as cannon fodder and provided an improved livelihood for middle class intellectual revolutionaries
Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Reminds me of the World History teacher we had in high school who said Alexander the Great died of a broken heart when he realized there were no more lands to conquer.
David wrote: "Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Reminds me of the World History teacher we had in high school who said Alexander the Great died of a broken heart when he realized there were no more lands to conquer"
I published a short (flash story) on that very idea
The North of England has never been the same since Fred Dibnah died.
Didn't he have a gardening show with the woman with nipples?
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Didn't he have a gardening show with the woman with nipples?"No. Fred Dibnah was the man who knocked down chimneys, and drove around in steam tractors all day. He had a TV series years ago, which I used to enjoy watching as a kid.
He's a hero of mine.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Didn't he have a gardening show with the woman with nipples?"You're thinking of Alan Titchmarsh & Charlie Dimmock n the show "Ground Force". She didn't wear bras...
http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/02/theres-...
Marc wrote: "David wrote: "Marc wrote: "I had a (RW) Uni History teacher who said that the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guilt"Reminds me of the World History teacher we had in high sc..."
More entertaining than food poisoning, I guess.
Marc wrote: "explains a lot..."A working class hero by anybody's standards. Sadly, they don't make them like that anymore.
Trade unions are much, much older than the Labour Party. SOGAT (that dates me) had journals and records from predecessors dating back to the 18th century.
yes plus the Chartists. But the Labour Party knitted them into the parliamentary fabric of society
Marc wrote: "yes plus the Chartists. But the Labour Party knitted them into the parliamentary fabric of society"And thus watered down their radical tendencies in true Labour party style.
Marc wrote: the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guiltWhilst the Conservative Party draws its strength from the 'Haves' sense of entitlement.
David wrote: "Marc wrote: the Labour Party came into existence through middle class guiltWhilst the Conservative Party draws its strength from the 'Haves' sense of entitlement."
Not necessarily, Look at classic Labour figures such as Hilary Benn or Jeremy Corbyn, classic 'Haves'. Then you get David Davis the conservative who most definitely wasn't
Todays headline Poll for Good Morning puts the Tories just one point ahead (down from 17 at the start of the campaign)
delusional.I put it out on Twitter that if the Corbynistas & Momentumites really thought he was going to win, they should each put £10 on and donate their inevitable winnings to the NHS.
I called one in particular out on it and we are both pledging to put down £10 bet, him on Labour largest share of the vote, me on Tory majority of 25-49 seats and in case of either winning, to donate the winnings. I've just got back from William Hill. Odds of 11-4
How can a poll be delusional? Might be wrong, but delusional?
Corbynistas and Momentumites all over social media singing Hallelujah & Praise the Messiah for he has come amongst us to deliver improbable electoral victory.Mind you polls have been delusional for recent ballots. Tory voters tend not to admit their allegiances, so polls miss a lot of their actual bedrock support. Then there's always the last few days when people revert to the devil they know. And probably, unless people admit to themselves that May cannot protect us, the recent terrorist atrocities have also probably strengthened Tory votes
The day after UCL's public '1984' read-athon, it's worth reflecting how Theresa May is following George Orwell's playbook; empty slogans ('Strong and Stable') and demonisation of 'the other'. She has responded to questions on her piss-poor record by smearing her opponents, and is fighting on a manifesto carefully designed to give her a free hand to do anything she pleases. She has done nothing to deserve a fresh mandate, so I don't think it is delusional to imagine that she won't get one.
it's delusional when you look at the cold hard facts of winning seats. I look at a map of the UK and Labour ain't winning back any of Scotland. So far they've struggled to hold on to some of their heartland seats in by-elections & lost Copeland. They will lose some of the outer boroughs they hold in London. Where on the rest of mainland Britain do you see them swiping seats from the Tories? Nor will the LibDems take seats off the Tories, probably not even in their former heartland of the South-West
But one thing you say is true, the Tories & May have mounted the worst campaign I can remember, yet they'll still get in with an increased majority. Not only is Tory manifesto open ended, she's going back to undo the few commitments written in it - Dementia Tax and 5 years more with the ECHR
Seen on the Internet:Theresa May is the only woman who can wear a Versace suit and make it look like a sack.
I thought we didn't judge women politicians by their appearance any more? Let's lambaste her for U-turns, lack of charisma, meaningless slogans, for ducking debates & contact with the public, for never taking responsibility for anything from her stint at the Home Office...
Thought I'd reproduce an email I sent to Harrow Labour Party last night.I'm inquiring why there has been barely hide nor hair of any campaigning in Harrow East by Labour, when it is within the top 50 targets (by swing needed) and amongst the top London targets for the Party. Throughout the campaign, I have had just one leaflet, which I cannot for one second conceive of being sufficient to win over any undecided voter. Not has anyone bothered to canvas my views and concerns. All parties claim they listen to the needs of the people. First you have to be in earshot...
It seems to me down to one of two things. Either the campaign is being conducted wholly by digital communication, which only works for those who are members of the party and which I may say is a pretty poor version of democracy if candidates don't make themselves available in the flesh. Of course it's possible canvassers did call round and I missed them, but as I work part-time I have more chance than most of being at home when they ring the doorbell. If they did call round and put that one solitary leaflet through my letterbox, they haven't followed it up with further leaflets and communication.
The other reason could be that Labour have given up on winning Harrow East and are instead concentrating resources on to holding on to the Harrow West seat. If this is the case then I think it is a shocking dereliction of duty and an admission by the Party that it cannot win the election, if it won't even seriously fight for a seat in the top 50 targeting of marginals. It suggests Labour are a barely credible force for opposition let alone government, as many of its critics have been saying.
On Thursday I feel I cannot vote for your Party that have done nothing to court my vote and yet I am desperate to kick out the Tories from both this constituency and government itself. Your Party has failed the likes of me and this country as we look almost certain to be condemned to 5 years more of austerity and then some as Brexit comes home to roost on our economic isolation. This has nothing to do with the leader, but reflects collectively on your organisation (the party with the biggest membership in Europe remember), or your ambition. I feel no less disenfranchised than one of my sons who is a member of the Liberal Democrats who are not fielding a candidate in his university town of Brighton to leave the way free for the Greens. It seems Labour are leaving the way free for the Tories in Harrow East by mounting no more than a token campaign.
I would be interested for your response.
Marc wrote: "I would be interested for your response. ..."I too would be interested in their response. :-)
It strikes me that it's been the campaign for empty slogans, 'Strong and Stable', 'For the many, not the few.'
I think some of the fault lies with the fact that the two main party leaders are people who aren't good at reaching out and communicating with people who aren't like minded.
Don't forget 'enough is enough'.Yes, neither are particularly good at insulting their opponent either, always a worrying sign!
I can only say Marc, that my local constituency party has been fighting hard and leafleting/door knocking a lot.Did you ever consider volunteering to help out yourself, as an articulate and intelligent person?
Marc wrote: "I thought we didn't judge women politicians by their appearance any more? Let's lambaste her for U-turns, lack of charisma, meaningless slogans, for ducking debates & contact with the public, for n..."Oh, I agree completely. Just that comment from a lady (no idea who she is) amused me.
I was struck by something Churchill said"Whatever one may think about democratic government, it is just as well to have practical experience of its rough and slatternly foundations. No part of the education of a politician is more indispensable than the fighting of elections."
Neither of the two party leaders have really shone at this in the past. For May, she was somebody the 'team' either hid or deployed appropriately
For Corbyn he was always so detached from his party that he was an irrelevance and the best that the party could hope for was that he never drew the attention of the media.
Suddenly both of them are thrown into the melee and they frankly are way out of their depth.
Politicians like Denis Skinner or Boris Johnson love the cut and thrust. Both can appeal to their audience, boost their supporters and stiffen the sinews of party members who're wavering.
Of course they hack of opponents. So what :-)
And neither of them is anything like the monster portrayed by their opponents.
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