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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
B J wrote: "Jim wrote: "Forgive his languagehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g..."
What a brilliant rant."
This is a good rant. Both sides need to grow up, stop the partisan name calling, and actually get some work done.
I think you've summed it up nicely RogerI think that in the UK the 'remain' side has moved through the process of grieving and the Americans have a long way to go to catch up.
There have been some interesting discussions about his our society works
http://capx.co/should-we-like-what-fa...
http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-o...
I can't remember the exact order for the 5 stages of grieving but I'm over denial & on to anger. Screw the other 3 whatever they are ;-)
Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance (Kubler-Ross - 1969)
It's one reason why I've not bothered too much about what people have said. Not that I've not listened to their arguments and tried to answer them, it's just I've tried not to worry too much about the emotion. For some people it's been too raw and you've got to let people vent.Life's too short to get upset about politics
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance (Kubler-Ross - 1969)"yeah them's the fellahs, I don't do bargaining though ;-)
So it's straight on to depression, Marc?Skip that bit too, it sucks big time.
nah, a writing a day keeps the depression away
Well that leaves Acceptance - so we're back on an even keel now :-)
I accept that I am depressed. Does that count?
Dunno - how many fingers does depression have??
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Dunno - how many fingers does depression have??"Uh, four. Is that right? Do I win a prize?
ah but I write about not accepting the information provided by my senses
Therein madness lies!!!
Politics has always been rough and tumble, but in later years, the hollowing out of politics, i.e the 'end' of ideology, has contributed to this IMO. Pre-June 23rd, I was watching old EEC debates on youtube. The emotion was there, but Labour was Labour and surprisingly, the Tories acted like Conservatives. There was a clear ideological divide between the two, especially when you had genuine socialists arguing against joining the EEC.
Changed days, huh?
Nowadays, the obsession is with the centre ground, which is why a 1970s throwback like Corbbyn seems out of place.
'nowadays'? Ever since Blair became obsessed by Mr & Mrs Worcester of Middle England and did nothing with 2 100+ majorities for fear of alienating them.
And it's probably true, Labour can only get a majority in England by moving towards the centre, but then they have the issue as Miliband found that of you're asking who would the country rather entrust the running of the capitalist economy to, they will go with Tory every time.
Marc wrote: "'nowadays'? Ever since Blair became obsessed by Mr & Mrs Worcester of Middle England and did nothing with 2 100+ majorities for fear of alienating them.
And it's probably true, Labour can only ..."
I don't get why people trust the Tories with the economy. I remember Black Wednesday, and their handling of Brexit is a dictionary definition of incompetent.
Millions of people voted Labour at one time, millions don't vote for anybody. There is a rich ream of voters out there waiting for something to vote for.
Forget Middle England, go for millions more - that's what I would do If I were Labour leader.
I agree re Tories economic prowess, but in same way Tories are veiwed as untrustworthy on the NHS, Labour viewed as untrustworthy on the economy.
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Sure do!! "
My Preciousssss!
I obviously don't know the ins and outs of UK politics, but from what I gather from this conversation is that your parties are similar (albeit more complicated) than ours in the US. However, it seems like we are going through similar issues.Our parties on both sides, liberals and conservatives, are increasingly becoming controlled by extremists, and people are responding to that. I believe the majority of people are somewhat moderate. When the extremists bully their way into office then the moderates become disillusioned and tend not to vote, thereby allowing the extremists to get their way.
That appears to have happened here anyway. The moderates stayed away from the polls allowing "he who should not be named" to become the president elect. This is a simplified version. I'm a simple minded guy, so that's the only way I can understand it.
Is this what happened with the Brexit vote? Most of us on this side of the pond were quite surprised by the outcome. Almost as surprised as the result of our presidential election.
Brexit happened because people were promised free unicorns if they voted Leave.Trump happened at least in part because Clinton was a poor candidate.
Brexit also happened because people wanted to give elites and London in particular a good kicking and for reasons that had nothing to do with the EU voted Brexit. This is similar to the howl expressed in the US by many of those who voted for Trump.
Michael Cargill wrote: "Brexit happened because people were promised free unicorns if they voted Leave.Trump happened at least in part because Clinton was a poor candidate."
True, Clinton was a poor candidate and did little to present herself as a good candidate. Also, she was too reserved, too moderate. Bernie Sanders was more extreme and therefore more popular. The other candidate was over the top extreme and scared the shit out of moderate voters who decided to stay home.
Marc wrote: "Brexit also happened because people wanted to give elites and London in particular a good kicking and for reasons that had nothing to do with the EU voted Brexit. This is similar to the howl expres..."
Yes, Washington has been so ineffective that people wanted change. It didn't matter how bad the change may be, they wanted to give Congress a good kicking.
Now, I think the extremists are not just in the Middle East anymore.
Bexit also happened because being so tied into the EU is not good for us economically: people can see that despite the conspiracy of silence about it. Plus the EU is causing widespread misery across the Mediterranean areas for idealogical reasons, and that affected a lot of people.There are a whole host of reasons for both votes. The endemic corruption of the politicians, the sense that whole communities have been abandoned and ignored by the governments (of all persuasions), that the chattering classes are very willing to wring their hands over social problems but not to bring forward solutions to the issues.
I'm not sure that if 'moderate' voters were truly scared they would stay home. Wouldn't they come out and register their fear by voting the other way?
'People' had no idea about the economics of the EU.And the idea that anyone really cared about what is happening in the Mediterranean is laughable.
Both those issues influenced/determined my vote for a start, so stop laughing, Michael. I'm not so self important as to think I'm unique, and nor am I so dismissive of other people.
But you would admit that giving elites & London a kicking has sod all to do with the issue of the EU? Many voted emotionally/ viscerally, around an unspecified sense of getting their country back or regaining sovereignty. Are you saying that these people could define what both those catchphrases actually mean when translated legislatively? No, it was a catch-all panacea. Same way as many of those more consciously voting to leave the EU felt it would be to the betterment of the UK, without knowing how that would play out economically or what it would look like in a post-EU Britain. A yes/no In/Out referendum boiled a complex set of issues down to a simple binary choice which could not possibly adumbrate exactly what Brexit means. Accordingly it invites a yes/no emotional choice from many.
For many, Marc, the EU is just another elite lining its own pockets while treating people as a commodity. The so called Four Freedoms of the EU are not about the lives of citizens: they are about maximising profits for a few and everyone knows that.Here's an interesting, though quite long piece. Well worth the read.
https://www.theguardian.com/membershi...
I get that, but there were more parochial elites to be duffed up as well and it all got lumped in together under this simplistic In/Out choice. Many voters chose to make this a referendum wider than the issue at hand; ie the merits and demerits of belonging to the EU
I sleep easy at nights, because my leave vote was based on sound, rational principles of democracy and sovereignty.
Will wrote: "Both those issues influenced/determined my vote for a start, so stop laughing, Michael. I'm not so self important as to think I'm unique, and nor am I so dismissive of other people."certainly I know people who've watched the growth of youth unemployment in Southern Europe and don't want their grandchildren to be at the mercy of an organisation that is willing to impose this to rescue an ideological fixation
Ironically, by leaving the EU we may be placing ourselves at the mercy of that organisation even more.The situation that those Southern Europe nations find themselves in is down to the actions and decisions taken by their democratically elected governments.
R.M.F wrote: "I sleep easy at nights, because my leave vote was based on sound, rational principles of democracy and sovereignty."go on then, define by what you mean by both. What changes a Brexit will bring about in both these spheres.
Will wrote: "For many, Marc, the EU is just another elite lining its own pockets while treating people as a commodity. The so called Four Freedoms of the EU are not about the lives of citizens: they are about m..."well worth a read
A very good point made was that white male privilege doesn't exist for poor white males
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I sleep easy at nights, because my leave vote was based on sound, rational principles of democracy and sovereignty."go on then, define by what you mean by both. What changes a Brexi..."
"The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but upon the sovereignty of the People, who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election. Five basic democratic rights derive from this relationship, and each of them is fundamentally altered by Britain’s membership of the European Community,"
Tony Benn, 1975.
Couldn't have said it better myself. :)
Brexit will restore these ancient rights to where they belong. Rights that were gained through blood, sweat, and tears, over many a long century.
A cliche, yes, but sometimes there is truth in cliche....
you're on glue my friend. Name me one actual real change this will bring about to our Parliamentary democracy. A democracy let us not forget which is currently headed by a non-elected PM, who has thrown away some of previous PM Cameron's policy commitments from the last manifesto, which for better or for worse, again we didn't vote for hers. Also we have the farcical situation of cost cutting by a proposal to get rid of 50 Parliamentary constituencies with their MPs yet the Lords is having none of its unelected fat trimmed and currently stands at what, 800+ members? Governments have 3 main sphere of influence by changing law or introducing policy decisions:
1) Foreign policy - EU rarely had impact on that in our case, partly because it was so hopeless at getting unity on any decision, partly because we just went ahead and duffed up Gadaffi or whoever the US orders us to
2) Economics - in a global economy, any individual state is so tied into an intricate nexus that it is very difficult to effect anything in a positive way through policy, but it is plenty possible to right royally screw things up. If Trump does go protectionist for US economic interests, it will be interesting to see how that plays out, but also the US can act in isolation because of its size and economic muscle, we cannot.
3) Social policy - Government really shouldn't be left in charge of trying to legislate for our lives
Sovereignty of the People is a truly great phrase. RMF, I understand your position, but is Brexit truly in the best interest of the UK? To my US ears, it sounds like an isolationist position. Don't get me wrong, I think the results of the recent election here sounds the same way. I think isolationism is a product of fear of the outside world, fear of change, fear of things that are different.
Marc, I don't think an isolationist position is the best for the US either. We just got out of a major recession. I don't know that we can remain a major power if we have another one. I fear that if we step away from the rest of the world then other powers will fill the void.
And that is a very scary thing. I believe isolationism is short sighted. What will be the results of isolationism in the next 20 years? More wars because now we have other powers moving closer to our borders? Isn't that what happened in World War II?
I have always been virulently against US foreign intervention, but you are right, unfortunately right now due to your (with the UK trailing in on your coat-tails for most) past history, the geopolitical situation is very nasty and messy indeed. Parts of the Middle East, Russian and Chinese expansionism, they will move to fill any vacuum left by the US withdrawing.
"Name me one actual real change this will bring about to our Parliamentary democracy. A democracy let us not forget which is currently headed by a non-elected PM..."This is Britain - we're a parliamentary democracy. You know as well as I do, that we the people, don't elect the Prime Minister. Parliament does that...
I'm very surprised you wrote this...
"who has thrown away some of previous PM Cameron's policy commitments from the last manifesto,"A political manifesto is legally non-binding.
"yet the Lords is having none of its unelected fat trimmed and currently stands at what, 800+ members? "
The Lords needs to go - an affront to democracy. I agree with you on that point.
Roger wrote: "Sovereignty of the People is a truly great phrase. RMF, I understand your position, but is Brexit truly in the best interest of the UK? To my US ears, it sounds like an isolationist position. Don..."
Brexit is the opposite of isolation. The EU is a closed shop, a protection racket. Post-Brexit, we will have to go further abroad and trade with the rest of the world.
It's fortress Europe that's raising the drawbridge, not Britain....
so your notion of democracy is a limited one then? While there could be an internal party coup ousting the head of a party the night of an election victory, this tends not to happen. Therefore when the leaders of each party speak at the election hustings either on TV or in the flesh, we know one of them will be voted in as PM by virtue of being their party leader at election time. If they get a majority, they form a government, Parliament can't stop them. The Queen putatively could stop them, but it would cause a constitutional crisis so she tends not to interfere. So in effect we the people do choose our PM. Except in odd times like now or when Gordon Brown took over the reins from Blair. Nor did we vote for a coalition of Lib & Tory last time round but hey that's what happened. So these 'odd times' I mention are becoming more frequent and less odd.
Whoever commands a majority in Westminster gets to be PM. Granted, it's unlikely to happen without the backing of your own party, but our unwritten constitution and centuries of convention, can theoretically allow a independent to become PM, if enough MPs back him or her...
That is the criteria I'm happy to adhere to, and I vote in full knowledge of this at election time...
R.M.F wrote: ""who has thrown away some of previous PM Cameron's policy commitments from the last manifesto,"A political manifesto is legally non-binding. "
And there we have it, a clinching argument for the strength and representiveness of our democracy. Make a bunch of promises you have no intention of keeping, just to get hold of power for power's sakes.
So we've always lived in a post-truth, post-fact world and not just descended into one within the last 2 years. Truth is an essential handmaiden of democracy I would have thought, but here you dismiss it as frippery, as garnish, as window dressing. I commend your work Sir
Nobody voted for a coalition in 2010 or Nick bloody Clegg to be deputy PM, but our flexible system made this happen. I know it, you know it, and I suspect, most of the British public knows that this can happen.
The nation seems satisfied with this set up....
R.M.F wrote: "Roger wrote: "Sovereignty of the People is a truly great phrase. RMF, I understand your position, but is Brexit truly in the best interest of the UK? To my US ears, it sounds like an isolationist..."
Brexit is the opposite of isolation. The EU is a closed shop, a protection racket. Post-Brexit, we will have to go further abroad and trade with the rest of the world.
Brexit is half-arsed isolationism. We have cast ourselves adrift in the world with no trade deals in place and no muscle to have say tariffs and protectionism like the US may have. Fortress Europe? Hardly, It has porous borders (an argument in your corner I concede), while it remains a fortress incapable of wielding any influence on the world stage in terms of united foreign policy. Tends to argue against notions of a pan-European army and a unified foreign policy.
R.M.F wrote: "Brexit is the opposite of isolation. The EU is a closed shop, a protection racket. Post-Brexit, we will have to go further abroad and trade with the rest of the world. It's fortress Europe that's raising the drawbridge, not Britain...."
Why bother trading with your millions of neighbours when you can trade with one or two shitsplats on the other side of the globe?
And the criticism of the EU tends to be that it is pro-capitalist, pro-globalisation... yet here you are saying it is protectionist and a closed shop.
UK Amazon Kindle Forum
Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
That Old Ace in the Hole (other topics)
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