Rules and Terms for Authors/Members

[Joyce]

Well, welcome readers! If there were no readers, we wouldn't have any authors, and there are a lot. I write historical fiction. My books are in the Great Depression and WWII in Pacific. They each have a romance in them & they are the first two in a series and am writing the third now, which is my first spy novel with a larger romance. It's hard to write but I am enjoying the challenge. That's why I hadn't participated earlier. I hope that the readers here will take some author suggestions, but that's all they are. Mine are about history but in a more readable format. Joyce Shaughnessy

[Ken]

I'll throw mine into the mix. I generally dislike using these forums for self-promo but its the end of the month and I need just a handful more sales to have my best month. Here goes:

and
The Platte River Waltz, The Growler Brigade.

The two combined tell the tale of a young couple emigrating to Oregon in 1848. I researched the routes and sights along the way and overlaid the tale of their relationship and growth to spice up the long walk.

[Joseph]

Ken and Kilburn are right ;there are a plethora of self-styled "author's" out there.It appears everyone is a writer today...pay a few bucks and someone will "publish " your book and there you have it. . . you're a writer.
There are some good writer's who self-publish, but it's been my experience the majority of such books are poorly written and add little to our understanding of the human condition. Talking and writing are hardly the same thing.
Programs in "creative writing" deserve a portion of blame for some of the drivel that masquerades as "literature" today. Again all it takes is money. Pay several tens of thousands of dollars and a few years later you've become a writer.
It's enough to make real authors sick.

[David P]

What is a "real author", Joseph?

I haven't paid anyone a dime to publish two novels on Kindle in the past six months. They each sell for $2.99 and I am selling over a thousand of them per month now with average ratings here and Amazon over 4 stars.

I haven't taken a creative writing class since my days as an undergrad. I don't pretend to be more than a story teller who never would have even tried to publish anything if I had to go through the grind of agents and publishers. I think self-pub indie eBooks are a revolution in literature unlike anything since the invention of the printing press. For example, I'm shocked to suddenly have "fans" on four continents.

I agree that there are a lot of poorly written eBooks out there. In fact, it was after reading a few of them last year that I decided I could write better ones! Not to worry, the market will sort us all out on its own. Have faith in the readers and the "real authors" will become self-evident.

[Russell]

Joseph,

"There are some good writer's who self-publish...".

I don't disagree with the rest of what you've said. The only real problem I have is with your generalizations.

For instance, I'm not sure what you mean by (or at least think of yourself under the umbrella of) "real authors." For me -- and for whatever it's worth -- "real authors" have already mastered the mechanics of writing. As a 'for instance,' those mechanics would NOT include an approval of "writer's" as an acceptable plural of "writers."

You can, if you wish, now tell me (and everyone else here) that (1) it was just an oversight; (2) get a grip, Russell; this is only an e-mail; and/or (3) I was stoned...this doesn't count.

To (1), I would answer: good. And so, when your submission gets rejected (or worse, ignored), you can bitch about the idiot-f**king editor/publisher/ Webmaster/whatever (s)he wants to call him- or herself. Alternatively, you can study up on rudimentary English -- which you may've missed because of (a.) a headache; or (b.) a hangover.

To (2), I would answer: yup. You're right, Joey-boy. Ya like them apples? But if you didn't like it from me, consider yourself lucky. Once you start to submit -- if you haven't already -- don't be surprised if you don't hear anything except the diminishing throb of your own rejection.

To (3), I would answer: Keep smokin'. The Amazon (the jungle, that is -- not the company) doesn't really need another writer. What it needs is more consumers. In other words: Smoke...and buy.

To quote Richard Ford, "(i)t is no loss to mankind when one writer decides to call it a day. When a tree falls in the forest, who cares but the monkeys?"

And so, now, Joseph, welcome to publishing and America -- the land of open opportunity! I can send you in the direction of any number of publishing houses that'll take your money and make you feel like a hero. For at least 30 minutes.

Russell

[Russell]

David,

"Not to worry, the market will sort us all out on its own."

This is a bit naïve -- or, if not naïve, just wrong -- at least from MY perspective.

It's late here on the East Coast of America. And so, I don't have much more to say before I submit to the "miles to go before I sleep."

If I yet have anything to say -- anything at all -- it would be this: spend a bit more time and thought on what you call the "market," which is a convenient (because, mindless) term for the media; it ought not to figure in the mouth or pen of a writer --except in irony.

Russell

[David P]

Goodnight Russell,

Just remember that Robert Frost also said, "Modern poets talk against business, poor things, but all of us write for money. Beginners are subjected to trial by market."

[Russell]

David,

Good morning.

This is a GREAT quote! Thank you for bringing it to our (or at least to MY) attention.

This is becoming (or, perhaps, became some time ago, and I'm just late to the party) a VERY interesting discussion -- and a valuable one for folks who have no real experience with publication. A pity we don't have a campfire to sit around and continue it without interruption. At the very least, such a setting might allow us to sort out terms and how to use them so that everyone's on the same wavelength.

So much of conversation in a format like this one goes unheard or gets misinterpreted because of the nature of electronic correspondence and the urge to contribute too quickly lest the thread should be lost.

In the meantime, David, please allow me to give back as good as you've very graciously allowed me to get: "If most people who called themselves poets were tightrope-walkers, they'd be dead." (Michael Longely)

Russell

[Diane]

From a freelance novelist point of view, I've read wonderful books by small and large publishing companies and by self-publishered authors. I've also read horrible--how could this junk get published--books by small and large publishing companies and by self-published authors.

From a readers point of view, I don't care who published it, and before I began learning about the publishing industry, I seldom (almost never) took note of the pubishing company, so I had no idea if a book I read was published by a company or self-published. If the book was good, I enjoyed it; if the book was horrible, I wondered, 'how much did the writer pay to get this published' or 'what did the writer do; sleep with the editor?'

This bickering of who produces a better story is nonsense and only exists between writers and publishers. The reading public doesnt' give a fly's arse who published the novel as long as it's good.

[Russell]

Diane,

"Out of the mouths of...fantasy writers" !!!

You are ABSOLUTELY correct (in principle). Unfortunately, however, the real writing life in these United States is somewhat different (more cutthroat; less civilized) from what it may be in Nova Scotia.

Nevertheless, I for one appreciate your post. It's something we should always keep in the back of our minds when staring into the black hole and "megalomania of [not only small press] publishers." *

Russell

* Is there a more egocentric and self-delusional species on the planet? If so, I've never met or read anything about that species. Sorry, by the way, for the generalization: I know there are exceptions to every rule -- except, perhaps, for the rule that applies to "literary" agents (an oxymoron if there ever was one).

[Vincent, Group Founder]

The topic for this folder is "Rules for Authors on Posting." Going forward, let's try to keep the threads on this subject. (There are plenty of folders to create discussions on other topics.)

Thank you.

-Vincent (Moderator)

[Joseph]

I'm glad my comment has stirred so much interest. In my view, such a discussion is infinitely more interesting than the endless notices of "books published" which fills a fair amount of space on this site and is taken seriously by almost nobody.
While I seldom waste time with the merely petulant, here a few things I feel worth noting:

David,
You are at the very least a fast writer . . .two novels in six months. May I remind you of Capote's response when he heard that Jack Kerouac often finished a story in a single session: "That's not writing. That's typing."

I'm glad you've found a hobby that pays well. Still, anyone who equates "commercial success" with excellence must come from a different planet than the one I inhabit.


Of course, it’s difficult to define a real author. They say it's also difficult to define love, but one recognizes it when he/she sees it. There are too many exceptions. Still, a good way to start may be to seek the opinion of those who spend their lives studying such things. I think it's a good idea to do so when making judgments in general. The best of these literary critics is well-educated, almost universally admired by his peers, and as free from personal bias as humanly possible. He or she has no hound in the race.
I'm not surprised when such a critic singles out certain literary magazines as representing some of the finest writing being done. A perusal of the magazine only confirms the view. I’m not surprised to see names like Alice Munro or the late Raymond Carver. I would be surprised to see the names of many who self-publish.
This is not to denigrate all who self-publish. There's often a legitimate reason to do so. Still, I'm willing to bet a "team" of self-published authors would not fare very well when put up against writers who have gone the other route. Unless you disallow that some are better than others, (a popular view in today's society of no losers but "seventh or eighth winners") I imagine the former would do about as well as a group of basketball players from the local YMCA who took on an NBA All Star team.
Finally, Russell.
Here's another generalization: It's kind of difficult not to generalize when you take on a big topic in a small space.
As to your finding regarding "authors:" Congratulations! You are heir apparent to the mythical Miss Grundy. You have found a grammatical error (typo). I imagine someone like yourself was the one to fail Faulkner in English Composition his freshman year at Ole Miss.
Your discovery automatically raises you to the stature of Shakespeare, I imagine. Your silliness reminds me of a reader who found a possible split infinitive in an article written by the rightfully well-respected editor of the venerable Virginia Quarterly who made points similar to the one's I made in my original commentary.
I hope the commentary continues. It’s been fun. Best.

[Jim]

"This is a GREAT quote! . . ."

Speaking of poets. I recently attended a book festival. The local poets were selling tee shirts with the following message printed across the front:

"Poetry - I'm only in it for the money"

Is that great or what. They didn't have an XXL so I couldn't buy one. Pity.

[Jim]

Diane wrote: "This bickering of who produces a better story is nonsense and only exists between writers and publishers. The reading public doesnt' give a fly's arse who published the novel as long as it's good. " That's the bottom line.

Sorry, Vince, I'll keep quiet and just read. :(

[Jim]

But first . . . This business about "authors"/writers/fast typists posting rants (opps) promos for their books has become a very vicious topic for mud-slinging on the Amazon boards. I have been impressed with the amount of civil discourse here on GR.

Readers are constantly trolling for books they might like - here, online, and in the stacks of their local bookstores. I must say that, with my Kindle being chock full, I'm still in love with physical books: holding them, reading them, seeing them in my walls of books. Also boxing them up every time I move.

Just remember, writers are readers, too. That's it. Bye.

[Vincent, Group Founder]

Hi Jim,

No need to keep quiet. I'm just doing a little organizing, so these discussions would be wonderful in the Bulletin Board section on our group (rather than Rules for Authors).

Create a topic the Bulletin Board folder and chat away!

-Vince

PS - As a poet, I ought to get that shirt you mentioned.

[David P]

Joseph wrote: "I'm glad my comment has stirred so much interest. In my view, such a discussion is infinitely more interesting than the endless notices of "books published" which fills a fair amount of space on th... David, You are at the very least a fast writer . . .two novels in six months. "

Yes, I prefer polite and intelligent discourse to endless and shameless self-promotion. I'm glad that reviewers, fans and other authors have begun to toot the horn for me instead.

To clarify, I had over 150,000 words written when I decided to cut off the first book at just over 100,000 words. I released it in January and finished the second (105,000 word) book at the end of March for an April 1 release. I was working under a self-imposed deadline because the timeline depicted in the book started on April 1, 2012, and I wanted people to be able to read it in real time.

The third book is going slower, but I hope to release it later this year. I make no pretension at producing anything more than pulpy science fiction and horror escape literature. I'm not looking to impress any intellectual elites, just entertain people with an original approach to the popular genre of apocalyptic zombie fiction. Since we are trading quotes:

"I have never tried, in even one single little instance, to help cultivate the cultivated classes. I was not equipped for it either by native gifts or training. And I never had any ambition in that direction, but always hunted for bigger game--the masses." - Mark Twain, a Biography

[David P]

Jim wrote: ""This is a GREAT quote! . . ."

Speaking of poets. I recently attended a book festival. The local poets were selling tee shirts with the following message printed across the front:

"Poetry - I'm in it for the money..."

That's great! They must be fans of Frost too! :)

[David P]

Vincent wrote: "Hi Jim,

No need to keep quiet. I'm just doing a little organizing, so these discussions would be wonderful in the Bulletin Board section on our group (rather than Rules for Authors).

Create a top..."

Sorry, Vincent. I'll look for interesting topics on the BB. Thanks.

[Steve]

David wrote: "Joseph wrote: "I'm glad my comment has stirred so much interest. In my view, such a discussion is infinitely more interesting than the endless notices of "books published" which fills a fair amount..."

David, I am truly impressed at your having churned out 105,000 words in two months. That adds up to a lot of hours spent hunched over the keyboard. Do you have a physiotherapist or chiropractor on standby? Glad to read that you write to entertain readers who enjoy pulpy escape literature; a man after my own heart. The quote from Twain was a nice closer. Thanks for sharing.

[David P]

Thank YOU, Steve.
Actually, I had about 160,000 words in rough form when I decided to cut off the first book at 100,000. Which is probably why TheKindleBookReview said "This is book #1 in a series and the book comes to a logical stopping point to end the book. No real cliff hanger, but interesting enough that I will at some point read the second book." LOL.

I only needed to come up with another 45,000 words between January 15 and March 31. I guess it turned out okay because TheKindleBookReview said, "#2 in the series and without a doubt will read #3 when available., April 15, 2012: Is book #2 as good as #1 in the series? Yes... Book #2 ends like a good series book should. Reaching some significant conclusion, leaving a couple in the air, and briefly laying the groundwork and giving a couple of hints for the next book." :)

I'm going much slower on the 3rd book. Half of the hang-up is wanting to pull all the pieces together into a satisfying conclusion. The other problem is all the darned marketing I have to do to keep the 1st two books up in the charts. Nobody told me about that side of the indie writer gig! LOL

[Jim]

David wrote: "Thank YOU, Steve..."

Steve and David, Are you guys clones? Look at your pictures!!
Hope this isn't off topic, but we gotta keep the thread alive here!

[Steve]

Jim wrote: "David wrote: "Thank YOU, Steve..."

Steve and David, Are you guys clones? Look at your pictures!!
Hope this isn't off topic, but we gotta keep the thread alive here!"

Not a chance, Jim, David has a truck stuck to his back. And yeah, you did steer this thread off track, but kudos for trying your damnedest to keep it alive.

Have a good one. (you, too David).

[David P]

LOL.

[Jim]

Okay, Steve. I'll give Resurrected a look. Noticed you're reading Hunter. Hope you find it interesting. Bidinotto is an interesting guy. He's interviewed just about everyone on earth. Check out his site. Oh, and anyone spinning Hendricks and Beck is good enough for me. Beck is still going strong with lots of new stuff. I just keep playing Jimi over and over. Ta!

[David P]

What, Jim and Steve? I'll have you know that the "truck stuck to his back" is a zombie killing SUV. It (or something similar) is suitably immortalized in my books.
David P. Forsyth @davidpforsyth

[Jim]

Zombie Killing SUV, eh? We want pictures, dude! You show your ZK SUV and I'll show mine! The challenge is on!!

Steve: Here yago. Check this out: Read the Friday, June 22, 2012 blog post - My Unsettling View on Self-Publishing on The Killzone: http://killzoneauthors.blogspot.com/

Also check out the comments!

[Steve]

Jim wrote: "Okay, Steve. I'll give Resurrected a look. Noticed you're reading Hunter. Hope you find it interesting. Bidinotto is an interesting guy. He's interviewed just about everyone on earth. Check out his..."

Thanks, Jim, for offering to check out Resurrected (and for affirming my good taste in guitar gods).

[Steve]

Jim wrote: "Zombie Killing SUV, eh? We want pictures, dude! You show your ZK SUV and I'll show mine! The challenge is on!!

Steve: Here yago. Check this out: Read the Friday, June 22, 2012 blog post - My Unset..."

Timely and relevant blog post with some great comments, Jim. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. This topic could make for a hot new discussion post here (somewhere other than on Rules for Posting, but I'm too new around these parts to figure out where), to air the views of readers as well as writers. Why not take the lead and sit back and watch the fireworks?

[Jim]

Steve, I read KZ every day. They did a "first page" analysis awhile back. I sent mine in and didn't get thrown on the floor and busted. Surprise!! The reviewer actually started riffing on it, which was pretty cool.

Where's Vincent, our moderator, when we need him. Vince, could you start a thread about whether or not self-publishing is a waste of time and energy? Essentially we're talking about eBooks!! Check out my KZ link (above).

Vince! Here's another one. Could you start a thread about Zombies? What's the fascination with Zombies?? I'm sure that David is going to jump right on that one with his Zombie Killer SUV. Still waiting for the pix, Dave.

[Vincent, Group Founder]

You rang for your moderator?

The Bulletin Board section would be great for these sorts of threads.

Anyone can create a new discussion in that folder. (Eg. topics on self publishing, zombies, missing moderators named Vincent.)

If you need help, just ring the bell. I'll be in the house somewhere, wandering through the many corridors.

-Vincent

[Jim]

Okay, dude. I'll go over there and see if I can make it work!!

[David P]

Thanks, Vincent. Don't get lost. I'm starting a thread called Apoca-Con for my latest sinister plan to destroy the world (an Apocalyptic Writers Convention) that will coincide with the Long Beach Zombie Walk on Oct. 27. It will be on the BB(if that is appropriate). Thanks again.
DPF

[Margaret]

Kgcummings wrote: "Susan wrote: "You know, it's really sad to have to use the phrase, "rival authors."

There are an awful lot of readers out there, and more being formed each day. Why are we fighting over them so n..."

The promotion of reading should be the aim of authors. Readers have a great capacity for reading, therefore it seems logical that authors should promote this activity over watching television and the like, and rejoice in the wide variety of available literature.

[Amy]

1 in 88 children are affected by Autism. 1 in 54 are boys. My son is among them.

When I decided to donate part of my book sales from my upcoming sequel, RECKONING, I knew this was the first place I would start. Autism is something that is dear to my heart.

My son struggled with speech delays due to his PDD-NOS and I am pledging $0.50 from every book sold for my sequel, with the goal of raising $2500 to purchase 5 iPads to help other families who have a child with speech delays. I know how hard it is to not be able to communicate with your child.

This is my opportunity to give back. I hope you will help spread the word so we can change the lives of 5 families.

[David P]

Please include a link to the book, Amy.

[Amy]

I will just as soon as it is released on July 31st. Thanks!

[[deleted user]]

I'm feeling very disillusioned about writing another book. I wrote a children's fantasy book about an adolescent's adventures in time and space (Mistral's Race into Time). I did this in just under six months two years ago, and after several months and many, many rejections a small publishing house in Cambridge, England took it on and I was published nine months ago. As it's a small publishing house the marketing was mainly online with Amazon, etc. and it is everywhere in the world. It sold relatively well at the beginning but then new books appear and the book's sales dwindled and they have now stopped. Pegasus then put me on Kindle on Amazon two months ago to encourage sales but if no-one can see it, how can it sell. I received my first royalty cheque the other week and it wasn't bad but I was just thrilled to be published. Now I just cannot seem to write another book. I've struggled for two months just to get the first three chapters done of an adult book. I often wonder what is the point of hoping to get another book published? Still the thrill I still get to see my book in print! That is worth it I guess.

[Jim]

Mistralia wrote: "I'm feeling very disillusioned about writing another book...."

Almost brings tears to my eyes reading that. So ultimately you/we write because we like writing . . . and publishing, too. But you did publish and people bought the thing. So that means that you're doing okay. You're not at the top of the charts, but so what? Hardly any of "us" are. Yet, we keep putting out stories - good stories - because we like doing that and the books and stories are "real" books and "real" stories. Yunno, not pretend books and stories. So keep at it and don't quit your day job.

[[deleted user]]

Thanks for that Jim! I work pretty long hours as it is as a freelance translator/proofreader for a translation agency in New York. Can sometimes be annoying with the six hour time difference here in France but I enjoy the work. I just love writing though, have done since I was about six - notebooks, diaries, poems, fairy tales, etc. Difficult sometimes to get the time to write nowadays. I get my inspiration when I walk my dog Chloé out in the fields/woods in the morning and look at the amazing backdrop of the Pyrenees. Perhaps it is too inspiring and I need to be very depressed like Dostoyesky and will then write something sensational! Good to dream.

[Jim]

Dog Walking in the Pyrenees sounds utterly amazing. Maybe a book title right there. I walk my big chocolate lab, Max, here in the Rocky Mountains of Montana. You guys get in the mood, we can swap houses for a summer, since both come with dogs. You're in France doing translations. That sounds very exotic. From that book alone, there must be a million books waiting for you to write. I worked as a technical writer on data projects. We did international conference calls all the time. Just understanding the voices and the accents was a tough job.

Have a good one!

[[deleted user]]

Just ordered "The Storytelling Animal: How Stories Make Us Human - Jonathan Gottschall".

I have a black lab called Chloé. She's French and a true hunting dog!

[Jim]

The Story Telling Animal is a fantastic book.

Max is an English Lab, 109.3 pounds, no hunting, lots of swimming and stick fetching and eating. He's on a big diet that includes green beans (julienne cut).

[Ken]

Jim wrote: "The Story Telling Animal is a fantastic book.

Max is an English Lab, 109.3 pounds, no hunting, lots of swimming and stick fetching and eating. He's on a big diet that includes green beans (julien..."

Ha. I tried putting my boxer/mastiff mix on green beans. The first time I gave it to him, if looks could kill. He's dropped about 10 to 110 lbs

[Jim]

Ken wrote: "Jim wrote: "The Story Telling Animal is a fantastic book.

Max is an English Lab, 109.3 pounds, no hunting, lots of swimming and stick fetching and eating. He's on a big diet that includes green b..."

Ken, try carrots, too.

[Dawn]

Good morning,
I am new here and I would like to promote my short story Kindle e-book "Tails of My Rescue Dog". As a self-proclaimed "crazy cat lady" I share the trials and tribulations I faced as a first-time dog owner to a slightly (??) neurotic rescue dog. It's a warmhearted read for any age. Thank you!

http://www.amazon.com/Tails-My-Rescue...

Dawn Starek
www.tailsofmyrescuedog.blogspot.com

[Jim]

Dawn wrote: "Good morning,
I am new here and I would like to promote my short story Kindle e-book "Tails of My Rescue Dog". As a self-proclaimed "crazy cat lady" I share the trials and tribulations I faced as a..."

Okay. BOUGHT IT! Can't resist. My dog MAX just one the BEST DOG AWARD in the Dog Olympics. It was the Musical Sit competition - a variation of musical chairs.

[Dawn]

Thank you Jim! I hope you enjoy it and please post a review. That's great about Max! You should be very proud. After you read my book, you will see that my dog isn't close to winning anything that involves discipline, but I just love her to death!

Thanks again! :)

[Jim]

Discipline? No way. Max just finally grew up and also figured out that he can swim like a fish. Of course, he's never encountered any fish.

Anyway, we had to blow a child with a small dog off one of the spots to win. My friends are still giving me grief over that one. Anyway, I did it for my doggie.

[Ken]

Jim wrote: "Anyway, we had to blow a child with a small dog off one ..."

The child learned a valuable life lesson and probably got a participation award anyway. No biggie