Discussing Frank Questions *possible spoilers may result in discussion*

[Tera, First Chick]

Discussion Questions
1. Do you think that Mamah is right to leave her husband and children in order to pursue her personal growth and the relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright? Is she being selfish to put her own happiness and fulfillment first?

2. Why do you think the author, Nancy Horan, gave her novel the title Loving Frank? Does this title work against the feminist message of the novel? Is there a feminist message?

3. Do you think that a woman today who made the choices that Mamah makes would receive a more sympathetic or understanding hearing from the media and the general public?

4. If Mamah were alive today, would she be satisfied with the progress women have achieved or would she believe there was still a long way to go?

5. In Sonnet 116, Shakespeare writes, "Let me not to the marriage of true minds/Admit impediments. Love is not love/That alters where it alteration finds. .." How does the relationship of Mamah and Frank bear out the sentiments of Shakespeare’s sonnet? What other famous love matches fill the bill?

6. Is Mamah’s story relevant to the women of today?

7. Is Frank Lloyd Wright an admirable figure in this novel? Would it change your opinion of him to know that he married twice more in his life?

8. What about Edwin Cheney, Mamah’s husband? Did he behave as you might have expected after learning of the affair between his wife and Wright?

9. Edwin’s philosophy of life and love might be summed up in the following words from the novel: "Tell her happiness is just practice. If she acted happy, she would be happy." Do you agree or disagree with this philosophy?

10. "Carved over Wright's fireplace in his Oak Park home are the words "Life is Truth." What do you think these words mean, and do Frank and Mamah live up to them?

11. Why do you think Horan chose to give her novel the epigraph from Goethe, "one lives but once in the world."?

12. When Mamah confesses her affair to her friend Mattie, Mattie demands, "What about duty? What about honor?" Discuss some of the different meanings that characters in the novel attach to these two words.

13. In analyzing the failure of the women’s movement to make more progress, Mamah says, "Yet women are part of the problem. We plan dinner parties and make flowers out of crepe paper. Too many of us make small lives for ourselves." Was this a valid criticism at the time, and is it one today?

14. Why does seeing a performance of the opera Mefistofele affect Mamah so strongly?

15. Why is Mamah's friendship with Else Lasker Schuler important in the book?

16. Ellen Key, the Swedish feminist whose work so profoundly influences Mamah, states at one point, "The very legitimate right of a free love can never be acceptable if it is enjoyed at the expense of maternal love." Do you agree?

17. Another of Ellen Key’s beliefs was that motherhood should be recompensed by the state. Do you think an idea like this could ever catch on in America? Why or why not?

18. Is there anything that Frank and Mamah could have done differently after their return to America that would have ameliorated the harsh welcome they received from the press? Have things changed very much in that regard today?

19. What part did racism play in Julian Carlton’s crime? Were his actions the product of pure insanity, or was he goaded into violence?

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

i finished the book the beginning of april, though i'm not done w/these questions yet! here's what i've got so far:

1> i think mamah is right in leaving edwin given how truly unhappy with edwin she was ~ i think she felt she'd settled or given up in being with him ~ staying would've made their home incredibly unbearable and i think the children would've suffered even more - but i think she left for the wrong reasons initially, her new feelings for frank.

i think if she'd had accepted that job in boulder & stayed near her friend mattie, she would've become independant & more confident and would've seen her children more. she still could have sought a divorce from edwin & once that happened, she could've then gone to/with frank and i think she would've been better off in the long run. (i know it's hard to think that clearly when one is passionately in love & in lust!)

i think society would've been a tiny tad less hard on her had she left before the affair and while on her spiritual/personal growth journey had met frank and entered into a relationship then.

to some degree, yes, she was selfish ~ in the way she goes about it! she was living the life maybe she should have before she had children ~ if she wasn't really in love with edwin, she shouldn't have had children with him to begin with ~ in doing so, she not only left her children, but put their care off onto her sister who then had no life of her own - she took great advantage of her sister lizzie!

unfortunately, i think society (then & now) deems anyone who's a parent as being selfish if they do anything for themselves.

strangely, i didn't react with "how could she leave her children?!" while reading this book ~ which i realized while answering this question would've been my normal reaction!

no one is perfect - who am i to judge?!


2> because loving frank was not only the catalyst for mamah to change her life & try to find what would make her happy, but frank essentially became the reasons for all of her pain & joy in her life from the time their affair started until her death.

while ti takes place during a time when feminism was beginning in america, i don't think there's a feminist message in this novel. it's universal for women & men alike, though i think women are more likely to be interested in this story.


3> i think the reaction today would be far less harsh in the printed media because it's so common place now! the tv media would have a field day as they usually do!


4> i'm not sure ~ i think she would be pleased w/all of the opportunities, choices & freedoms women in america & parts of europe have today. i'm not sure she'd be pleased w/what women do with them at times. there's always still progress left to be made & improved upon!


5> skipping this one!


6> i think mamah's story is very relevant to women today ~ the struggle to do the right thing for yourself AND those you love - getting out of a relationship you KNOW is WRONG for you - finding that all encompassing, true, good love - the search for a career that gives you fulfillment & joy - the fear of the unknown & taking risks - doing something that not only benefits you but those you love... how to do it all and do it well without hurting yourself and others?!


7> i don't find frank lloyd wright admirable. his structures, perhaps - the ideas of his 'organic' architecture, perhaps. for what he put catherine and mamah though? no. for what he put those in the communities he worked in & lived in and those who worked for him through? no. that he married twice after mamah died initially made me angry at both frank and catherine. (she finally grants him a divorce in 1920 ~ 7 years after mamah's death!) but that didn't change my opinion of him based on what i've read in this book. (selfish, controlling, manipulative egoist!)


8> yes.


9> i think for some people, 'act/think happy & you'll be happy' works! for many (including me!) it's just not that easy & simple! (not matter how hard we try!)


10> 'life is truth' means not being fake ~ how you are in private is how you should be in public, don't try to be anything you're not.

i think mamah lives up to this more overall than frank does. i think she lived up to them more once she told edwin of the affair and once she asked for a divorce. frank lives up to it in that he won't give up his relationship & return to his wife because that's what catherine and society would've had him do BUT frank doesn't live up to that in not paying catherine child support & other bills (perhaps leading her on - is that why she kept saying that he'd return to her?), in cheating people out of $ on the bills he owed, keeping things from mamah, by guilting her during times she needed to put herself 1st.


i'm going to work on the remaining Q's and post them soon!

[Tera, First Chick]

spinning off on your answers jo but I totally agree. I find FLW to be SO egotistically and selfish. SO SO SO selfish. I want to smack him much more than her even though I dont like how she handled the situation at all. She seemed drunk on some illusion of him and he seemed drunk on some illusion of himself!
I had to google him of course and he was NO looker. Here is a link I found with pictures of both of them at different ages. http://www.steinerag.com/flw/Artifact...

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

i absolutely LOVED this book though! i was so upset just before the end when i was googling & found out what happened and then to read it had me very upset as well! i was devastated! elizabeth berg's blurb on the back cover of the hard cover states "...Mamah Cheney has been in my head and heart and soul since I read this book; I doubt she;ll ever leave." and that's how i felt before i even finished!

i agree she didn't go about things in the best fashion, but i've been guilty of the same in the past! i haven't always made the best decisions when it came to relationships, and my daughter before she passed, and i know what it's like to so desperately want to be fulfilled and be loved at the same time!

[Tera, First Chick]

I like the book too. So, glad for this group because I doubt I ever would have picked it up otherwise.
Jo thanks for sharing your perspective. Sometimes I'm far too judgemental. Do you think it's a woman thing? Wanting desperatly to be fulfilled and loved that we make decisions we normally wouldnt? I dont often see men falling victim to that in the same way. In the way that they give up part of themselves in order to obtain that fulfillment from another person. Not to bash on men because there are good ones out there but they just seem to draw that line more easily than women do it seems to me. Certainly FLW did it with greater ease than Mamah did. She seemed to bend to his life and his way regardless of the cost to herself. He on the other hand seemed unwilling to bend or give if it jeopardized who he wanted to be.

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

tera, i didn't think you were being too judgemental! i hope i didn't make you feel as though you were! i feel i can be the same way! (i try to remember not to be since i'm no saint!!!) it's natual for us to react that way to what others do ~ then more often than not, we act in the same manner! (i mean 'we' as in a generalization - not specifically you & i!)

i do think it's more of a female tendency to desperately want to be loved and fulfilled which leads women into making decisions they never thought they would make without looking at the consequences first. there are men who act in this manner too, though i believe there are far less who do than women ~ i also think we as a society hear less about the men who act like this than we do about the women - less interesting perhaps? doesn't fit the male stereotype? i think a lot of men are better at controlling their emotions or compartmentalizing their feelings which enables them to just keep plugging along.

the reason mamah and frank stayed together is just what you said: "she seemed to bend to his life and his way regardless of the cost to herself." had she not, frank would've moved on until he found someone who did.

he was rather odd looking! if you go to nancy horan's web site, http://www.lovingfrank.com and go to "book" you can look at actual newspaper articles from the time the affair began through the end and there are a lot of pics too ~ one of frank when he was younger startled me because it was exactly like i pictured him in my mind early on in the book!

there's LOTS of other great info on the website and 2 interesting video's, 1 an interview w/the author, another a walking tour of oak park w/ the author.

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

here are the last of my answers for the questions above!

11> i think "one lives but once in the world" is a bit of a reminder or warning of sorts! theoretically, we all have 1 lifetime to live and in the end, do we want to be filled with regrets or happiness? (but, i also think that quotes not entirely true as this book has given mamah almost a 2nd life of sorts and she will continue to live on as a result!)


12> mattie refers to duty & honor w/respect to mamah's made her bed & now she should lay in it ~ mamah made vows & had children & why should she (mamah) move on when mattie is content w/her situation even though it may not be ideal or she may not be fully happy with it. mattie's contento to be a wife & mother and doesn't mind that her life has changed & that she doesn't do or can't do the things she once enjoyed or wanted to try. i think mattie's also referring to disgrace ~ i doubt she could imagine disgracing herself, her husband & their family as mamah did, regardless of how unhappy she could have been.

mamah believed duty & honor weren't about society's definations, or even the over all feminist movements definations. she wasn't happy in her life & marriage, so she set out to try & find self fulfillment. i suppose, for mamah, duty & honor came for herself 1st, then for those around her.


13> mamah's comment was petty & condiscending crisicism, then & even now! just because she wasn't satisfied with that kind of life didn't mean that others weren't or that they were somehow lacking in value or problematic as a result of their content with that kind of life. there was no compassion or empathy in her statement either.

i think it's also a scapegoat kind of comment ~ because deep down mamah felt she wasn't doing enough personally to further the feminist movement overall.

that comment made in this day & age would garner the same reaction from me. in many instances, society looks to blame it's problems on other people instead of looking at itself instead.


14> it brought all of her fears, self doubts / insecurities and pain to the surface where she couldn't avoid them.


15> else's friendship brought mamah into a community of sorts where she felt as though she belonged; showed her she wasn't the only woman struggling; and perhaps showed her what edwin was going through when she left him (by learning eles's husband had left her) and what she may go through if frank left her.

16> i disagree. ellen's statement is so hypocritical! she also said "i was born to people who loved each other passionately until the last hour of thier lives. they were full of joy and interested in everything. their pleasure in each other nourished my little soul. everyone has the right to that, don't you think? people who live only for their children make bad company for them." (pg. 134) to me, she completely contradicts herself!


17> i don't think mother's getting paid for mothering would catch on anywhere in the world, though it's ironic that foster parents, nanny's, babysitters and surrogate mothers do get paid, but, i think society looks at motherhood as being 'voluntary' whereas most have to earn $ in order to make ends meet & therefore have no choice in the matter.


18> possibly living in speerate houses until frank received a divorce from catherine, but i actually doubt that anything would've improved their reception upon returning.

how has it changed today?! look at brad pitt & angelina jolie! he cheated on his wife with her ~ she slept w/& started a relationship with a publicly known married man! while there was some backlash initially, overall their reputations weren't tarnished in the least!


19> i believe poverty, sexism, religious zealousness also contributed to julian's final breakdown in addition to racism. i think his mind was unfit for many many years before he did what he did at taliesin and mamah's firing them was what finally made him snap completely.

was he purely insane? not exactly, he had the where with all to plan out the killings and attempt to take his own life after he was done. a very sick man, yes.


*because i couldn't sleep, i actually googled mamah on my cell phone one evening just as i reached the part in the book where she & frank hire him & his wife ~ i couldn't sleep and wanted to see what facts, if any, there were online about mamah ~ after thumbing through a few pages, i came upon an entry about a book that focuses purely on what happened to mamah, her children & the others the night they were killed and i was actually DEVASTATED! not that i'd probably ruined the end of the book (loving frank) but because it was such a horrible & unfair end to mamah's & her children's lives!

oh it upset me so! even ticked me off! (seriously!) i actually began reading the book at a slower pace because i knew what was coming & didn't want it to end that way! and yes, i cried once the murders started and through the end of the book!

[Tera, First Chick]

I'm not done with the book yet but I find myself disliking Frank and feeling sorry for Mamah. Odd isnt it. I mean they both did the same thing but I feel sympathy for her and anger towards him. Like real honest to goodness anger. Like I would throw eggs at one of his houses just because of this book anger. On the other hand I just feel incredible sadness when I think of her. On so many levels I feel it for her and her family for the way she seemed to lose herself and how she maybe never even knew herself. I dont know maybe I am being a product of society myself giving allowances to the woman but not the man?

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

i'm sad for the fact that maybe she didn't get to fully relaize herself and her dreams because her life was cut short! i think she was getting there and that if her relationship with frank didn't change, she wouldn't have stayed with him, though i don't think she would've moved on to someone else since she loved him so deeply.

[Tera, First Chick]

so i finally finished the book last night

UGH this book frustrates me. or she does. all along i wanted to slap her silly. I wanted to kick him in the head. Then towards the end around page 270ish or so she FINALLY lays into him and even leaves him for a time because he was a cheap SOB and a liar. She finally sees who he is. It was the first point in the book where I liked her fully. I know she went back to him but atleast she went back to him with her eyes open.
I don't care who she is with or isnt with to a degree but I hated the fact that up to that point she always seemed to see him as her savior and thought he may actually walk on water. If youre going to be with a jackass (and I think he was) then atleast acknowledge it. "Yes, I know hes an ass but I love him and all his assyness" (i think thats a word). That I can respect much more than "Well yes he does assish (again I think thats a word ;)) things but he does it because hes so gifted and hes not truly an ass hes just so consumed with his art blah blah blah"
So long point short. I was so glad to finally see that side of her!
Now onto the death portion of the book. I dont know but it seemed like such a huge measure of the story and she got to it and wrapped it up so quickly. I guess I wanted to know more. How did FLW go forward. What did he carry of Mamah with him how did it effect him and his work going forward? Did he ever blame himself (because I did)? What of Edwin? How did it effect him in the future? Did FLW rebuild Taliesen?
It left me with a bunch of questions. It made me angry that for all that time she totally left her children and then when she decides to go maternal of ALL the times to have them with her it would be at that time when Julian goes nuts. That was the most tragic part to me.
This book left me with a lot more questions and emotion than I thought it would.

[Bloomin’Chick (Jo) aka The Eclectic Spoonie]

see, i felt that way too until i remembered that it's actually & mostly fiction!!! what an amazingly well written 1st novel to evoke such emotions & reactions! but, since this is the author's story, we don't really know what mamah did, said or felt and it's a shame we'll never know!

yes, frank rebuilt taliesen, but i'm not sure if he finished rebuilding in it's original sight because there is a taliesen 2. (i don't remember!)

i know that catherine eventually gave frank a divorce in 1920 and he went on to remarry 2 times. mamah is merely a blip mentioned in his autobio! these 3 things angered me (which i found out while googling around!) and still do!

i will say that when i eventually visit my girlfriend in chicago (she moved there from manhattan last august), i do want to see oak park where some of frank's 1st homes were built and i want to go to midland gardens ~ i'm not sure why ~ i'm curious and i want to go there & see what i feel. sounds odd, i know.