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KKC Theories > Denna is one of the Chandrian

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message 1: by Chad (new)

Chad Smith | 10 comments I haven't read ALL of the threads here, for multiple reasons. So I thought I'd propose this question.

After reading both books in the KKC multiple times, I've come to the theory that Denna is the female chandrian? She has the perfect lifestyle to jump from patron to patron to make sure nothing about the chandrian is in anyone's library. Cinder is her patron Master Ash, helping her find whispers of the chandrian(that's why she was at the Mauthen wedding). She is always changing her name. She knows Yllish story knots, which no one at the University can really help Kvothe with since they are so old. I'd like to know what others thought.


message 2: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments First off, she has a silver and blue stone ring that she looks at and fiddles with that is an heirloom. The only people who have any relation to these colors are Skarpis "Spakling blue eyes" Lanre's Silver sword and of course, the vial with blue liquid Auri finds in SROST that "probably belonged to some icy god" which is a relation to Cinder's description "a creature of winters pale" "there was drifts of snow behind him, and he was standing on water" "Ferule chill and dark of eye"(Icy god). Which is most likely and is in correlation with her patron theorized as being cinder. Second, everytime Kvothe sees her in the Eolian she is wearing "an elegant green dress" or "Vibrant green"(Lackless colors) then there is her tear drop earings and necklace "made of a pale green stone" which are also in correlation with the flute Iax used to call the moon "made of a pale green stone".

From this we can say that since Skarpi is closest resemblance to her Heir loom that she is Yllish, this is because he had "sea foam eyes" and a "drift wood face" so he came from sea and has drifted away since.(YLL) Next, we know from Caudicus that Vint originated from "pirate kings" and that the Lackless box has Yllish writing on it so Lackless family originated from Yll.. Also, we know that Illien is from Yll and that he was around the time of Felurian(she knew stories of his so he was older than her)and because Red hair is the sign of Yll blood. So we know Kvothe is blood of Illien and Yllish too "maybe I laid down with a fiery god" - Kvothes mother. Together what can we make of this?

Denna is Lady Lackless. Kvothe is Illien heir. Together they are Savien and Aloine, Lyra and Lanre. They are "in perfect harmony" - scene after they sing Lay of Sir Savien.

We also know that if Illien was savien he was a Knight considering he is knighted "Sir" savien. So he worked for the king. The only person ever to be forced into pledging a promise to a king is Taborlin when Cyphus captured him "he knew that if he got Taborlin to promise to help him he would have to do whatever he told him, because Taborlin never broke his word" - Cob. And if we substitute Taborlin for Chronicler in WMF when Kvothe and bast made up the chronicler story then Taborlin/Illien/Lanre wanted to marry the kings daughter, LYRA. Thus, Lanre would go searching for secret magics to bring back to the king "the king would only let Taborlin marry her if he brought the king back something more prescious than the princess. So we know they were together fighting off "the enemy" meaning Taborlin/Lanre found something more precious than her...Whatever is in the Lackless box.

I personally think it is a Philosophers stone of sorts, "But taborlin had an amulet that protected him against bad things." "in a box no lid or locks lackless keeps her husbands rocks." the amulet. This amulet would have been very valuable, but dangerous in King Cyphus's hands so it would have to be locked up. This would probably be when Lyra locked it in the box and Lanre would have grown very angry and killed her. "her death is on my hands." but Lackless family use Amyr to protect the box/stone. "the Mear has come close to them(amyr) though he does not realize it. Remember what I just said and one day, youll get the joke and laugh." This is right after he marries Melian(sounds like aloine). So amyr are w lackless. To further prove this, Cyphus was king of Modeg. Modeg have great horn bows, Adem creator have great skill in bowmenship(aethe). Aethe lived in the time Ruach did. Selitos was Ruach. Kvothe went north of Felurians clearing to get to Cthaeh. North of Eld is Kearshean forest, "a much older forest". Chandrian are affriad of amyr and sithe, sithe guard Cthaeh. King Cyphus of Modeg "is the wisest king of all" Selitos is also the wisest of all kings. So if cyphus is father of Lyra, and wisest then it would make sense that selitos would force lanre to help him in the war then lanre would talk to Cthaeh and find he was being betrayed and go to sack Myr tariniel and selitos would curse Lanre for killing his daughter and burning his city. The amulet would be locked and Lanre would use kings he worked for to do his dirty work since he is cursed.


message 3: by Chad (new)

Chad Smith | 10 comments Wow. Your room must look like an episode of CSI, with stings going from wall to wall.

This is very interesting though, you've brought up many good points.

As I thought Kvothe's mother was the Lackless lady since it was said she was taken by Edema Ruh troupers, and Kvothe's father poem almost calls her name as Netalia Lackless "To make my wife Not tally a lot less".
Laurian also didn't like it when Kvothe was singing about Lady Lackless.


message 4: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments Ahhh, yes. I simply meant they were both you see. Every Lady needs an Heir and they aren't called Men lackless so it cant be Kvothe as pure Lackless blood. Denna is the next generation past Natalia. You see Denna tells the stone story, about a women who gave herself to a man and he cast her away. If the original Lady is the moon, then the man who cast her away would be Iax, and so all Lackless know the story of the stone as it would be their fate(predestine). So when she meets Lanre they would have this relationship that Kvothe and denna have always meeting by chance and never by will. Though Denna may look for other loves as Natalia and Meluin have Denna is always pulled back to Kvothe moving away and closing in in harmony. Thus, every Lady after would be under the same fate. In a way the three I suspect to be Lanre(Illien/Taborlin), could possibly be three different people, but under the same lineage they befall the same fate. "Though their roads might take them someone else, they all end in the same place." - Paraphrased Tehlu.


message 5: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments To solidify the predestine theory it only makes sense that just as Natalia ran away and found a Ruh, so did her heir denna. It is their fate to do so. Thus explaining why Meluin didn't, she is second born.


message 6: by Jason (new)

Jason (jzone) | 79 comments I'm still on the Denna is Ambrose sister bandwagon. Explains why they were together, doubt they were dating... and why he had her ring repaired. When Kvothe was hanging with the Maer there was the rumor that the youngest Jakis daughter took off and there were some relations to prostitution or something. Seems likely that's Denna.


message 7: by Ions (new)

Ions honestly, I've never considered the Denna Ambrose connection!


message 8: by Chad (new)

Chad Smith | 10 comments Jason, it would seem weird that Ambrose would do something nice for a random girl like that unless they were siblings. That is an interesting theory. There are a few times this could make sense.


message 9: by Michael (new)

Michael | 20 comments But why would she be more or less slumming it when Ambrose's family is rich?

Why would he not try to exploit her relationship with Kvothe for his selfish gain?

Denna being a Chandrian is an interesting idea. But why would she get beaten by her patron? Why would she get scared after mistakenly ingesting denner resin?


message 10: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments Jason, as there is little to no evidence that she is his sister, instead consider this.

Almost all stories told about a great hero sound parrellel to Kvothe, however the Iax story is about a rich boy who is not satisfied with worldly things anymore and wants the moon to love him back. So he goes out and steals her. The boy has a knack for badluck doesn't really try just does. Now we know there are different forms of Lackless and Jakis is very close to Jaxless and lackless. So we must consider that Ambrose is the family of Jax. and since Kvothe describes Denna as "The woman" very similar to "The Lady" used to describe lyra then we can assume that Denna is the moon or decendent of her. And at some point in book three the prophecy will continue and just as Jax stole her, ambrose will steal her.


message 11: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments and Michael she actually isn't scared of the denner resin, she kind of accepts it, "is it weird that im not afraid?" - paraphrased denna. Then she tells us she hasn't been sleeping because of her dreams.. Sounds like shes the lady to me. Also, if you were to consider her being a chandrian you would have to say that she is inherently cursed and no such curse has been made present(female curses are brings the blight, and lives in decay, in thrall of iron as those are the females speculated) Also, we'd have to wonder what use she would have since she does not have any great powers for haliax to use other than her voice, thus it rather seems that her patron is chandrian(access to great libraries and unlimited travel) and she is simply a stepping stone used by them to paint their leader in a good light to turn the tides of the "holy war" If you have played assassins creed or watched star wars you would understand this book perfectly. The cw/darkside has never stopped fighting. So Amyr are forced to search the world for these prodigies and train them as best they can in hopes they choose the right side in the end. Just as in star wars kvothe struggles with patience and is too eager to learn when the only thing he lacks is the one thing he denies.

Also, denna "met" her patron and he beats her. If denna was chandrian they would already know eachother and would not be teaching each other dancing. She would also be very old(knowledgable) and would not have just learned yll.


message 12: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments If you want to really dive into theory, Patrick has proved half of Kvothes bais oppinions about fairys and beings wrong. Kvothe thought fairies were fake until he saw one. Kvothe thought a shade was fake until he saw one. Kvothe thought dragons were fake until he saw a herbivore dragon. Kvothe thought lanre was fake until he saw one. Thus, if it took two books to prove most of kvothes fairy belief wrong then I'm guessing were going to get to see the rest of the stuff proven real too(ogres, amulets, taborlins staff, rendlings, dennerlings, bloodsucking skin changers, angels with wings of flame and shadow, a huge fight scene using fire and lightning, the doors of death, Lyra, the door on the moon, denna as a bloodsucking skin changer because her lips are always described "as if she had just been sucking the blood out of a creature" and finally well get to see Kilvins ever burning lamp, the lightbulb lol)


message 13: by Jason (new)

Jason (jzone) | 79 comments Michael wrote: "But why would she be more or less slumming it when Ambrose's family is rich?

Why would he not try to exploit her relationship with Kvothe for his selfish gain?"


I'm guessing Denna ran away from home and wants nothing to do with her father and his money. Ambrose taking her for lunch and offering to fix a ring if he noticed it needed it is obviously just another guess. As for exploiting Kvothe I highly doubt she would have mentioned Kvothe to him, no reason to.

The rumor Kvothe heard while at the Maer's was

"Baron Jakis had paid several officials to avoid scandal when his youngest daughter was discovered in a brothel. There were two versions of that story, one where she was selling, and another where she was buying. I filed that information away for future use."

Based on that and how Denna talked to the young would be prostitute later in the book is seems she might have been at the brothel to help someone there... tough to tell though.

Not sure it's right but it's the theory I'm running with until the book comes out. :)


message 14: by Hayden (new)

Hayden Johansen (Hayd) | 72 comments haha "It's a good man that sticks to his word" - the maer


message 15: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 117 comments Jason wrote: "I'm still on the Denna is Ambrose sister bandwagon. Explains why they were together, doubt they were dating... and why he had her ring repaired. When Kvothe was hanging with the Maer there was the ..."



I've been on that bandwagon as well. Someone mentioned Ambrose being nice to her...I'm not saying he would't treat family nice but based on his everyday interactions we have seen thus far (granted they are biased from someone who hates him) he always gives me the creeps with women. He's the type of character that I immediately get uncomfortable when he is onstage. Not because of anything he has done to Kvothe but because of all the interactions I have read about him having with the opposite sex. People like him are not just going to go out of their way to mind manners. He has an entitlement nobleman complex (that's obvious) and it eeks into every social interaction we see with him. That being said, if Denna is his sister, there has to be some ulterior motive even if she is family. Just the way my brain works cause he's a creeper.


message 16: by Sydney (new)

Sydney Mugerwa (corrosivemind) | 5 comments In a cold dark room, laptop light casting his bearded face in a godlike relief,Monsieur Patrick Rothfuss read all your hypotheses with a dark gleam in his eye. And then he laughed...and laughed...and laughed...He took a a humongous breath of air, tasted the fear in your hearts...and he set about to prove you all wrong. Such is the dark unparallelled power of the Creator :D


message 17: by Nhoj Leon (new)

Nhoj Leon (akosinhoj) | 2 comments your theories here are so spot on it should be considered a spoiler. lol.


message 18: by Chad (new)

Chad Smith | 10 comments I'm going to spin this a bit, back to Denna being one of the Chandrian.

In WMF she is talking to Kvothe, Simmon, and Wilem about the magics of the university; then asks about a type of magic that you just write it down and it becomes true, and you don't even need to know the language for it to effect you.

Could Cinder be giving her messages via yillish knots in her hair? His Beardy Highness (Patrick Rothfuss) said there are 7 types of magic and though we know of 6 the 7th has only been whispered. She whispers to everyone when asking about this magic.

She was in Severen the same time Lady Lackless was, while Kvothe was out fighting Cinder. Wasn't it said that the Chandrian wanted what was in that box to release it on the world?


message 19: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Chad wrote: "I'm going to spin this a bit, back to Denna being one of the Chandrian.

In WMF she is talking to Kvothe, Simmon, and Wilem about the magics of the university; then asks about a type of magic that..."


I don't recall there being a link between the Lackless box and the Chandrian. It's implied to be important though.


message 20: by Ned (new)

Ned Rae | 1 comments I don't believe Denna is Lady Lackless, I resent the idea that the Lackless heir must be a female when the rhyme concerning the Lackless door refers to "A son who brings the blood" I think this is clearly Kvothe, his mother being Lady Lackless. The theory that she is Ambrose sister is interesting but Ambrose doesn't exactly strike me as the kindly older brother type, if she was his sister who'd run away from home I'd expect him to scorn her. I'd be more open to the idea they were both Chandrian than that they were siblings. I'm more inclined to believe Denna to be a Chandrian or a trap set by them. "See a woman pale as snow, silent come and silent go" this from the rhyme about the chandrian could seem to describe Denna. she is described as 'fair' and the way she comes and goes in the story, silently. beyond this no-one seems to have an idea of her age, Deoch has known her for a long time it seems but he comments that she has always been the same. An agelessness attributable to being more than your average human.


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