Roger Zelazny discussion
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Collected Stories #4 - Last Exit to Babylon
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It started off with two short intro's to Zelazny. Both Joe Haldeman & Steven Brust are favorites of mine & they sure liked Zelazny. They wrote quick, excellent pieces, touching on just one facet of him.The first short story is the first of the My Name Is Legion stories. It was good, although the end note about the atomic blast could have been better. It said "the old man in the wide brimmed hat might be Odin." Of course, it was Odin, but if someone didn't get that, they wouldn't understand the ramifications. The end note should have been a bit longer & mentioned that Odin is associated with war & madness, as well as positive things such as poetry & knowledge. Maybe they were short on space or figured folks would look up Odin & then get it. They can't spoon feed us everything.
I guess it's just me, but this was probably the best description of an atomic blast that I've ever had the pleasure to read because likening it to Odin added volumes, especially in this situation. It epitomizes Zelazny's ability to say so much in so few words.
I'll post it below.
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We got far enough away, and the signal was given. All was silent for a time. Then the bomb went off. Over the port bow, I saw the man stand up. He was old and gray and wore a wide-brimmed hat. He stood, slouched, fell on his face.
"We've just polluted the atmosphere some more," said Martin.
"Hell," said Demmy.
---------------
Wow!
Just a quick note that Volumes 5 and 6 are in press and due to be released the second week of December through the NESFA Press website, and some weeks later via the big online retailers.These are the Tables of Contents for Volumes 5 and 6:
NINE BLACK DOVES: Volume 5
Introductions:
Considering Cows by Melinda Snodgrass
The Two Rogers by George R. R. Martin
Stories
Permafrost
Itself Surprised (§ Fred Saberhagen’s Berserker universe)
Mana from Heaven (§ Larry Niven’s The Magic Goes Away universe)
Devil and the Dancer (§ Dilvish 9 of 11)
Garden of Blood (§ Dilvish 10 of 11)
Dilvish, the Damned (§ Dilvish 11 of 11)
LOKI 7281
Dreadsong
Dayblood
The Bands of Titan
Night Kings
Quest’s End
The Sleeper (§ Wild Cards)
Ashes to Ashes (§ Wild Cards)
Deadboy Donner and the Filstone Cup
Kalifriki of the Thread (§ Kalifriki)
The Deadliest Game
24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai
Articles
Constructing a Science Fiction Novel
The Process of Composing
Science Fiction Writing at Length
Fantasy and Science Fiction: A Writer’s View
Beyond the Idea
“…And Call Me Roger”: The Literary Life of Roger Zelazny, Part 5, by Christopher S. Kovacs
Curiosities
Head Count
Changeling (Film Outline) (§ Pol Detson / Wizard World)
Coils (Outline)
Alien Speedway (Outline)
The Ahriman Factor (Outline)
Poems
The De-Synonymization of Winter
Dreamscape
Riptide
555-1212
I, the Crooked Rose’s Dream, Dumb-Sung Anatomie
Hands
To Spin Is Miracle Cat
Evangel
Song of the Ring
Day of Doom
Night of Fisting
The Game’s Thirteenth Strike
Locker Room
Song
Nameless Grave By a Nameless Sea, Probably Greek
Appendix C
Evil Chasing Prayer
THE ROAD TO AMBER: Volume 6
Introductions
Roger Zelazny by Jane Lindskold
Remembering Roger by Gerald Hausman
The Trickster by Gardner Dozois
Stories
Godson
Godson: A Play in Three Acts
Come Back to the Killing Ground, Alice, My Love (§ Kalifriki)
Prince of the Powers of This World
The Long Crawl of Hugh Glass
Tunnel Vision
Epithalamium
Forever After: Preludes and Postlude
Lady of Steel
The Three Descents of Jeremy Baker
The Sleeper: Character Outline (§ Wild Cards)
Concerto for Siren and Serotonin (§ Wild Cards)
The Long Sleep (§ Wild Cards)
Amber
Amber Map
Prolog to Trumps of Doom
The Road to Amber
The Great Amber Questionnaire
A Secret of Amber (with Ed Greenwood)
The Salesman’s Tale
Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains
The Shroudling and the Guisel
Coming to a Cord
Hall of Mirrors
Articles
On Writing Horror After Reading Clive Barker
“When It Comes It’s Wonderful”: Art versus Craft in Writing
Warriors and Dreams
“…And Call Me Roger”: The Literary Life of Roger Zelazny, Part 6, by Christopher S. Kovacs
Curiosities
Sandow’s Shadow (Outline) (§ Francis Sandow)
Shadowland (Outline) (§ Shadowjack)
Dysonized Biologicals (Outline)
Donnerjack, of Virtù: A Fable for the Machine Age (Outline)
Celebration
A Zelazny Timeline
Z-World by Michael Whelan
The Quintessential Roger Zelazny
Isle of Regret by Trent Zelazny
In Memoriam: Roger Zelazny by George R. R. Martin
Songs (in Godson: A Play in Three Acts)
My Given Name Is Death
Why Do Little Boys Lie?
It’s Rough Being a Bike
Be a Doctor
Why’s Good-bye So Easy for Him?
Remembering
Oh, How the Dying Goes On
Oh, Wondrous Weed
The Man Who Went Away
Betrayed
Let’s Do It
Save That Quarterback
Poetry
Our Own Piece of the Sky
The Appetite and Rising Sun
Cry of the Needy
What Child Is This?
Storm
Walking, of Course
Spinning the Day Through My Head
Paranoid Game
The God and Frustrate Shrine
Ikhnaton’s Hymn to the Sun
The Rational Gods
Spring Morning: Missive
If anyone wants to ask questions about these volumes, I'd be happy to answer. I didn't know where best to place this message; Jim may want to move it somewhere more appropriate.
Thanks, Chris! No, this is fine. I'll make a topic for each & post the TOC in there at some point. Please let us know when the books are available. I have just a few more pages of #4 to read. It's been great.
I finished it today. Very good! I loved the end with the explanations of how so many of my stories came to be. Of course, I found that all through the book, including a few stories that I don't recall reading before. I can't wait for book 5!
About Volume 5 and Volume 6: NESFA Press has received the books from the printer and the warehouse is fully stocked. Expect the NESFA Press order page to go live for these two volumes any time now, possibly today. Amazon and others will follow over the subsequent weeks.
Chris
Super! The website is:http://www.nesfa.org/press/
I don't see the books for sale yet, so I'll try later tonight.
(Oh! My credit card bills in Jan10 are going to suck!)
Still no new books for sale!
Well, keeping in mind that NESFA Press is run by volunteers, I hazard to guess that the person who activates the shopping-cart functions on the website is preoccupied. They've had the books since Wednesday; the sale function should activate any time now. The previous times it was activated the day they got V1/2 and V3/4, so this is unusual.
Thanks! They're still not there, so I guess I'll look for them on Monday at some point.
They are now listed for sale as of Friday after a long, curious delay.
Thanks for letting me know, Chris. I checked earlier today & they still weren't there. I've ordered them now, though.BTW, they're still not under the 'Latest Releases' page. I had to go to the order page & search on 'Zelazny' to find them.
Got my copies of 5&6 from Amazon last week, Jim. It was a little annoying to find that what looked like an available book was still actually a pre-order for a couple weeks after I placed the order, but I have the books now, so all is well (better than well, since there's more Zelazny to be conquered...
I've had mine for almost a month now, but with the e-reader, I've had access to a lot of stuff that's been simmering for a long time, so haven't gotten into them yet. I got book 5 out & everything, but still have barely cracked it... Never enough time.
I've just started reading volume 4 of this collection, and in reading the notes following "The Eve of Rumoko," I saw something I wanted to mention to Chris.(Once again, Chris, thanks for all the work you put into these notes--they're awesome!)
Anyway, the beginning of the book says that NESFA is open to suggestions regarding the post-story notes, and I have a comment for "The Eve of Rumoko."
There's a line on page 69 that says: "Over the port bow, I saw the man stand up. He was old and gray and wore a wide-brimmed hat. He stood, slouched, fell on his face."
In the notes, it's guessed that this may be a reference to Odin. I disagree. Zelazny used the description, "The tall man with the wide-brimmed hat" (or something very close to that) in Lord of Light, when referencing a nuclear bomb (he's referring to the shape of the mushroom cloud). I think that's the same thing he's describing here: it's just a dirty fountain of water that shoots up after the bomb goes off underwater. The slouching and falling on the face is the fountain dropping back into the ocean.
So, in summary, I don't think it's an allusion at all--I think it's just a metaphor to describe the effects of the explosion.
Yes, several people have suggested the same thing and I think that's the correct interpretation. I was obviously fixated on Norse mythology at the time I wrote that and missed the visual interpretation of what is otherwise a mushroom cloud (and none of the proof readers suggested otherwise!). The change is planned for the second edition of the book, along with some other tweaks.
I finished volume 4 last night, and I've gotta say--my favorite story of the book was "Unicorn Variation." I'd never read it before. Delightful!Anyone else have opinions on favorites from this volume?
Well, if I can't pick "Unicorn Variation" then I'd probably go with "Manna From Heaven", although it's tough to pick just one or two. I'm a real Dilvish fan, too.
Manna From Heaven is actually in volume 5, but that's okay, because I'd allow you to also pick Unicorn Variation!I like the Dilvish stories as well (for the most part, I liked the ones in this volume more than the previous 4), although Tower of Ice dragged on a little bit for me. It felt like there was far too much text devoted to Dilvish climbing a mountain and stuff.
So it is. I just saw the stories listed earlier in this topic & looked through them. I thought I posted that for all these books, but I didn't this time. I'll edit the first message to include it.
OK, done. That makes the choice tougher. "The Last Defender of Camelot" probably, but there are a couple of others that really hit me hard. "Stand Pat, Ruby Stone" was so interesting & bizarre. I've already mentioned how much I like Dilvish... I don't know. It's like comparing apples & oranges. Depends on my mood.
I wasn't a huge fan of "Ruby Stone," actually. Not sure why. "Last Defender of Camelot" was pretty good. Have you seen the Twilight Zone rendition of it? Yikes--not so good.I also really liked "Go Starless in the Night" and "The George Business," amongst others. As much as I love Zelazny's more "serious" stuff, I think I prefer even more his slightly silly stuff, like "The George Business" and "Unicorn Variation."
I wasn't a fan of 'Ruby Stone' the first time I read it or even the 2d. Something about it has grown on me over time. I'm not sure why, either.Was it a new Twilight Zone that butchered 'Last Defender'? I can't find & don't recall it being in the original episodes, all of which I have. I never cared for the newer versions.
Time Enough at Last
The Monsters are Due on Maple Street
Eye of the Beholder
are 3 I believe they remade. The acting & atmosphere was completely lacking, IMO.
If the 'George Business' is the one I'm thinking of, yeah, I loved that. Very short & (view spoiler) Very few authors seem to be able to paint such a complete picture & twist it so much so quickly.
"Last Defender" was from an 80s version of the Twilight Zone. It was adapted for the screen by George R. R. Martin, but the production value was so low that it was almost painful to watch."The George Business" isn't the one you're thinking of, though you're on the right track. (You're thinking of "The Monster and the Maiden." And no, I couldn't remember the name of it without looking it up. =P) It's a different story about a dragon--I'd remind you of the premise, but I don't know how to do that fancy-schmancy "spoiler" thing you did. =P
The 'fancy' spoiler thing is just (spoiler) write spoiler here (/spoiler)
just replace ( with < & ) with >
Anything you put in 'write spoiler here' will be hidden. It's a nice new feature that GR came up with.
Sterling had almost no budget; found great actors & writers, wrote a lot of the episodes himself & did some of the most fantastic shows in super simple locations. He still managed to do miraculous shows, so I don't have much sympathy for the later versions.
Ah, thanks for the tip on (view spoiler)Anyway, The George Business was about (view spoiler)
I haven't seen a whole lot of Twilight Zones, but the original ones that I HAVE seen were quite good--can't say the same for the 80s version. I watched three episodes on that Netflix disc (including "Last Defender"), and was mostly bored out of my mind. Only one of the three was decent.
Glad to turn you on to the spoiler thing. It is awesome. It does NOT flip the spoiler switch in reviews, BTW. I was worried about putting it in there, but the review shows just fine.Oh yes! I remember the George Business now. Yeah, that was funny & good.
Do yourself a favor & watch some of the old Twilight Zones. I don't know if you'll enjoy them as much as I do, but they're certainly not a waste of time. One of the things that gives me a kick is seeing some great actors in them. Many were discovered through the show, others were well known at the time & just lent a lot of class to it.
When Star Trek first came out, I knew Captain Kirk as the man who had been in "Nightmare at 20,000 feet". (I was 7 at the time, I think.) It gave me a thrill though. Jack Klugman played a trumpet player in another, Lee Marvin a boxer, but Mickey Rooney put in possibly the best performance I've ever seen. I think the episode is entitled "Big" & it is just Rooney in a hotel room. That's it for the entire 1/2 hour show, but there wasn't a dull moment.
If you ever get a chance to catch the 3 hour long Rod Serling Special - a review of his career - do it. It's downright amazing.
"Nightmare at 20,000 Feet" just so happens to be one of the few Twilight Zones I've seen! I didn't discover until afterwards that Richard Matheson was the one who wrote it--I hadn't read anything by him until last year, and he's quickly becoming one of my favorite authors (though, of course, no one will ever top Mr. Zelazny).The only other episode I can remember seeing is a Christmas episode where a drunken Santa (view spoiler). I've actually seen that one a few times, 'cause a friend has it on DVD and we tend to watch it around Christmas.
I may just have to look into some of those old Twilight Zones, as per your suggestion, especially since I've read that Matheson contributed more than once.
Matheson is worth reading & he did several of the scripts. I've read a few of his short stories & books, I Am Legend being my favorite novel. Vincent Price did justice to it (although the ending got a bit mangled) in "The Last Man on Earth" (1964?). Charlton Heston's 1970 version, "The Omega Man" was campy & fun, but pretty much screwed it up. The latest one Will Smith was in... well, everyone involved should just go give themselves a swirly & then hide in shame. Horrible CGI & the story bore no resemblance to the original. It was more of a poor take-off of "The Omega Man". Oh, the episode with Mickey Rooney was "The Big Tall Wish", I think. I remember the Santa one vaguely, but can't put a name to it.
Going back to Dilvish, I had a question I meant to ask but forgot about earlier.Okay, so . . . in "The Bells of Shoredan" (Volume 2 of the Collected Stories, I believe), Dilvish comes across (view spoiler). He makes use of it in both that story and the next: "A Knight for Merytha."
The Dilvish story after that is "The Places of Aache" (#5 in the overall Dilvish series, and the first of the series to appear in Volume 4). In "Places" through "The Ice Tower," Dilvish no longer has the (view spoiler) he found way back in "Bells."
Did I miss something? Did he lose the thing somewhere? Or are the Dilvish stories written out of chronological order and I just didn't realize it?
I realize a possible explanation is that there was a huge time gap (publishing time, not Dilvish time) between stories 4 and 5, but still, it seems like a weird thing to overlook. Did Zelazny just forget about what Dilvish found in story #3? Or was this an example of his "less is more" philosophy, where he leaves holes in the story to make it more interesting for the readers?
Maybe Chris can answer definitively, but I suspect Zelazny just didn't have any use for it any more, so it got lost - or maybe he forgot. He did screw up the Amber genealogy, after all.
The order in which the Dilvish stories were written is explained in the notes that accompany them and in the biography; the latter stories were written out of sequence.There was a gap from 1967 to about 1979 between the writing of those two tales. Zelazny may have forgotten about the blade. But there are other implied incidents in Dilvish's life between the tales that aren't covered in the stories, so it is also possible that Dilvish lost the blade and Zelazny just didn't tell us when/how. (Gene Wolfe does this sort of thing a lot in his stories.) Since Zelazny re-read the first stories before continuing on with the fifth tale, it seems to me less likely that he forgot about the blade and more likely that he omitted it for his own reasons.
Ah, thanks!And yeah, I'd seen that some of the stories were written out of sequence (I think he wrote #6 before deciding he needed a better transition between it and the last, so he came up with #5, or something to that effect . . .).
In any case, it didn't negatively impact my enjoyment of the Dilvish stories. I just assumed I'd missed something and forgot about it until now. =P
Thanks again for the responses, guys!
Roger Zelazny
Books mentioned in this topic
I Am Legend and Other Stories (other topics)My Name is Legion (other topics)
Last Exit to Babylon (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Steven Brust (other topics)Joe Haldeman (other topics)
Roger Zelazny (other topics)
Table of Contents
Introductions
11 The Prince of Amber (by Joe Haldeman)
15 What I Didn't Learn from Reading Roger Zelazny (by Steven Brust)
Stories
21 My Name Is Legion: Précis
25 The Eve of RUMOKO (series: My Name Is Legion)
81 'Kjwalll'kje'k'koothaïilll'kje'k (series: My Name Is Legion)
145 Home Is the Hangman (series: My Name Is Legion)
213 Stand Pat, Ruby Stone
225 Go Starless in the Night
233 Halfjack
241 The Last Defender of Camelot
265 Fire and/or Ice
269 Exeunt Omnes
273 A Very Good Year...
281 The Places of Aache (series: Dilvish 5 of 11)
291 A City Divided (series: Dilvish 6 of 11)
303 The White Beast (series: Dilvish 7 of 11)
307 Tower of Ice (series: Dilvish 8 of 11)
359 The George Business
371 The Naked Matador
379 Walpurgisnacht
385 The Last of the Wild Ones (series: Jenny/Murdock)
405 The Horses of Lir
419 Recital
427 And I Only Am Escaped to Tell Thee
431 Shadowjack (series: Shadowjack)
443 Shadowjack: Character Outline (series: Shadowjack)
451 Unicorn Variation
Articles
483 Some Science Fiction Parameters: A Biased View
491 Black Is the Color and None Is the Number
501 The Parts That Are Only Glimpsed: Three Reflexes
505 Future Crime
511 A Number of Princes in Amber
515 Balance Art Commerce
517 Amber and the Amberites
523 "... And Call Me Roger": The Literary Life of Roger Zelazny, Part 4
Poetry
24 Diadoumenos of Polycletus
209 Come, Let Us Pace the Sky-Aspiring Wave
212 On the Death of a Manned Stellar Observation Satellite
223 I, a Stranger and Revisited
239 On the Return of the Mercurian Flamebird After Nesting
278 There Is Always a Poem
280 Doctrine of the Perfect Lie
368 Pelias Waking, within the S.C.
370 Torlin Dragonson
384 Wriggle Under George Washington Bridge
402 Lamentations of the Prematurely Old Satyr
403 Moonsong
404 Nuages
418 Friend
424 The Burning
426 Dance
431 Ye Who Would Wish to Live
442 Shadows
446 great cummings
447 The Man Without a Shadow
477 When Pussywillows Last in the Catyard Bloomed