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Group Reads > Regency Buck - Spoilers thread

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message 1: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
All spoilers to go here. :)

I know in the past this was a Heyer I liked rather than loved. I'll be interested how I find it this time!


message 2: by Sabine (new)

Sabine | 11 comments Yes, for me it's similar. Perhaps because I don't want to be best friends with anybody of the main characters.


message 3: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Just thought I would put this in the spoilers thread.

I can remember reading a Beau Brummell biography years ago & he really did say some of the witty lines that GH has put in his mouth! :)

& Judith is a rare example of a religious main character in a GH novel - she won't travel on Sunday, drags Perry to church etc, etc.

I'll just link to the thread about religion.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 4: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (sema4dogz) | 435 comments That's an interesting point about Judith Carol, I cant think of a another single one ( heroine I mean )

I wonder if GH was foreshadowing her character in An Infamous Army , where she becomes very dutiful and proper?


message 5: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 03, 2015 12:23PM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
AIF spoiler (view spoiler)

On previous reads I never thought about how awful cockfighting must be. Luckily, Judith "feels just as she ought" on this subject.

Can you imagine how awful her father's grounds must have been with up to 100 cocks strutting about/going for each others throats?


message 6: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (sema4dogz) | 435 comments Sorry Carol and everyone , I guess I wasn't thinking when I said that about AIA and Judith spoilerwise


message 7: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 1368 comments I have to admit this is not among my favorites. I find it a little tiring when the hero and heroine argue all the time. Faro's Daughter is another--a novel I'd really adore if the heroine weren't in a perpetual snit. The Reluctant Widow works better for me in the outraged heroine sub genre, because she actually has some pretty good reasons for her resentment.


message 8: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 03, 2015 12:25PM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Barbara wrote: "Sorry Carol and everyone , I guess I wasn't thinking when I said that about AIA and Judith spoilerwise"

Hey that's OK Barbara, I know that subject has come up in another thread. You could spoiler it though.

Well, I've finished & this time I loved it! Spectacular detail means this would be the best GH Regency for new readers to start with.

& the double talk was very well done!

I'm going to give it 4.5* rather than 5 for 2 reasons. I'll wait a couple of days to give people a chance to get through this before I give the reasons this book isn't quite 5*for me.


message 9: by Anne (new)

Anne | 265 comments I remember liking this book a lot , but since I'd read it right after These Old Shades and Devil's Cub (not the group reads, but a couple years ago), it hadn't enchanted me as much as those two ;) I gave it a 4, but I need to re-read it one of these days. Lord Worth was really awesome, and I loved his banter with Judith.


message 10: by Elza (new)

Elza (emr1) | 296 comments Barbara wrote: "That's an interesting point about Judith Carol, I cant think of a another single one ( heroine I mean )

I wonder if GH was foreshadowing her character in An Infamous Army , where she becomes ve..."


Arabella comes to mind, and although she's a secondary character, Patience (the vicar's daughter) in The Nonesuch.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1136 comments Anne, I agree about Lord Worth and the banter between the two of them.


message 12: by MaryC (new)

MaryC Clawsey | 480 comments ***Carol*** wrote: Judith is a rare example of a religious main character in a GH novel - she won't travel on Sunday, drags Perry to church etc., etc.

Can we be sure that Judith is really religious and not just doing what she considers proper?



message 13: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
MaryC wrote: "***Carol*** wrote: Judith is a rare example of a religious main character in a GH novel - she won't travel on Sunday, drags Perry to church etc., etc.

Can we be sure that Judith is really religious..."


No not really & as I remember it, Arabella spoiler (view spoiler)


message 14: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 04, 2015 06:03PM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
As a massive GH fan the first time I went to England I visited both Brighton & Bath.

These are some playing cards I bought at the Pavillion (& I don't care that GH obviously found it tacky - I thought The Pavillion was gorgeous!)

 photo efd4d657-43f4-48a9-811f-76df7aafd44b.jpg

 photo 2015-05-042016.03.09.jpg


message 15: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments ***Carol*** wrote: "As a massive GH fan the first time I went to England I visited both Brighton & Bath.

These are some playing cards I bought at the Pavillion (& I don't care that GH obviously found it tacky - I tho..."


I love them!


message 16: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 05, 2015 02:24PM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Thanks Karlyne!

& I don't think Judith ever develops a sense of humour - she has no idea why Charles is laughing when they borrow Worth's horses. Thats part of GH's early works charm is that her heroines all have distinct personalities. & Judith had blue eyes - not grey! Yay!

@ Abigail - I agree with you about Faro's Daughter (from memory - long time since I read that one) but I think Judith had considerable reason for her ire. She had been running her father's household for years - & then Worth treats her like a child. It would be galling.

& with the cock fighting - I read every word. The boxing too (& I hate boxing) Judith & GH both make it clear it's a disgusting, cruel "sport."

Edit; when I wrote disgusting, cruel "sport" I was referring to the cock fighting. But it applies to the boxing too.


message 17: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 06, 2015 11:43AM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Louise Sparrow wrote: "I've read the book many times, but listening to it this time Peregrine seems much younger to me, too young to be marrying in fact."

Louise Sparrow in the Chapt 13-23 thread.

It's an important part of the plot development though - gives a reason why Bernard has to move so quickly.

Would Perry have worked better as a more Jessamy (Frederica) like character? Serious but capable of acting rashly (so a quarrel could be forced on him?)

I have to say I do like the Regency Buck Perry! He reminds me of my son & his friends at the same age! Singleminded & self absorbed!


message 18: by Louise Sparrow (new)

Louise Sparrow (louisex) | 458 comments @Abigail – I rather like a hero and heroine that are a bit quarrelsome to start with. I think Judith has more of a reason to dislike like him than like him though, I’m not sure I entirely understand what attracted her, I just accepted that she did. Faro’s Daughter I will fully defend however, it’s one of my favourites, we’ll have to add that to our group read list so we can have proper debate. :p

@ Carol – The Pavillion is not perhaps refined for a regency taste but I agree with you that it’s beautiful, I could sit in the music room forever.

I do like Peregrine, and it definitely worked as a plot device, as I said it’s the first time I’ve really noticed how young he seems, maybe it was the performance putting a different slant on it to the way I usually read it.


message 19: by Elza (last edited May 07, 2015 04:07AM) (new)

Elza (emr1) | 296 comments It finally came to me that Regency Buck is basically Emma meets Mr. Darcy. Two well-born people, equally wealthy, and both used to ordering their own lives. No wonder they are constantly butting heads!

The description of Emma fits Judith to a tee: "handsome, clever, and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition ... had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her." Like Emma, Judith's flaws are "the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself."

I do like the way that GH keeps Worth's involvement with the Peregrine plots ambiguous. She definitely knows how to create tension and keep the reader wondering what is really happening and who is making it happen.


message 20: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Yes that was clever writing!

What would happen to Bernard? Wonder where he went after Worth beat him to a pulp.


message 21: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments Emr wrote: "It finally came to me that Regency Buck is basically Emma meets Mr. Darcy. Two well-born people, equally wealthy, and both used to ordering their own lives. No wonder they are constantly butting he..."

Judith is very like Emma! Emma had her father to soften her somewhat, while Judith saved her affection for her brother. I think they both needed older husbands simply because they wouldn't have been able to take a young man seriously. They would have known instinctively that the experience and wisdom they would value in a man wouldn't be found in someone close to their own ages. And Worth as Mr. Darcy? I see that, too!


message 22: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
When I read Why Shoot a Butler, Frank reminded me of Worth. Upon rereadng, Worth isn't that bad! High handed yes, but Judith's temprament is a good reason for Worth to believe she wouldn't listen if he had tried to warn her about Bernard!& he did try once, didn't he?


message 23: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments Actually, I found Worth a more sympathetic character than Judith. My favorite parts of the book, though, involved the minor characters, Mrs. Scattergood, the royal brothers and Perry and Charles. And Henry, the tiger!


message 24: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
I liked them both so much better this time around!

I agree with you about the minor characters - I loved Lady Albinia too! & GH cleverly didn't overplay her. & I liked Beau Brummell.

The Beau's real life end was very sad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beau_Bru...


message 25: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments I loved Brummell's explanation of why he never married: "the lady admitted to eating cabbage"! I may have been eating a salad with cabbage in it at the time. I'm so plebian.


message 26: by Leslie (new)

Leslie Karlyne wrote: "I loved Brummell's explanation of why he never married: "the lady admitted to eating cabbage"! I may have been eating a salad with cabbage in it at the time. I'm so plebian."

LOL!!

For those who like Beau Brummell and also like mysteries, you should try Kate Ross's books (start with Cut to the Quick).


message 27: by Margaret (new)

Margaret | 530 comments I enthusiastically second the recommendation of Kate Ross, one of my favorite authors. Rosemary Stevens also wrote some historical mysteries, with Beau Brummell as the detective, which are also good.


message 28: by HJ (last edited May 09, 2015 10:17AM) (new)

HJ | 948 comments I love Kate Ross too!

This time as I listened to Regency Buck, because I already knew the ending, I was concentrating on

-- how Heyer slips in the the information for the mystery plot e.g. she tells us loud and clear that Worth knows when Peregrine will be travelling back to London, and therefore could have arranged the "highwayman", but she also describes Judith laughing with Bernard about how often the postman has to deliver letters from Perry putting off his return date (so Bernard knew too);

-- why Worth might behave as he does to Judith;

-- why I don't like this book as much as most of Heyer's.

I love mysteries, and Heyer's skill at giving the reader all the clues yet leading the reader astray is superb. I think she succeeded at that better in this book than in some of her contemporary mysteries.

As to Worth's behaviour, I think he found her very attractive when he first met her, but also found her a little humourless and badly-behaved. He didn't recognise her as a lady of quality when they met in Grantham, at first because of her and Peregrine's clothes and the gig they were in, and then because she was out on her own (without her maid). It must have been a shock when he realised that she was his ward.

I think that after that he was deliberately remote because he knew that it would not be proper for him to court her while she was his ward. He took that responsibility seriously, and in finding a house and a companion for her was doing just as he ought. Judith found it provoking partly because of what had happened at Grantham, and partly because she had got used to being the one making the decisions in the year or so since her father had died. But Worth could have been much more restrictive than he was.

I think that Worth was jealous of Judith's friendship with her cousin Bernard, and also he very quickly mistrusted Bernard's intentions both towards Judith but mainly towards Peregrine. He knew that Bernard knew Farnarby, and therefore when he heard from his tiger about how Farnaby had forced a duel on Perry he was immediately suspicious.

Judith asks him at the end of the book why he didn't tell her it was he who stopped the duel, not Bernard, and he relies (very annoyingly) just that it was for many reasons. I think it was because he couldn't really do so without telling her about Bernard, and he didn't want to scare her or change the way she behaved towards Bernard too much. He also didn't want to put Bernard on his guard: it must have been annoying that Bernard saw him warning Farnaby off, and he didn't want Bernard to realise that he (Worth) knew that Bernard was behind it. He didn't think Bernard would stop his attacks on Perry, because he had too much at stake. So he puts the "groom" into his employ to keep him safe.

He tried to protect Judith and Peregrine by saying he would not agree to her marriage to anyone while she was his ward; although Bernard would gain quite a bit if he just (!) killed Perry, the Admiral rather than he would inherit the title and the entailed estates so he would have to wait for his father to die. Plus, he was so much in debt that he also needed the unentailed assets which would go to Judith, and he needed Judith's own money too.

Worth agreed to Perry's engagement because he wanted matters to come to a head while he was Judith's guardian and could control matters to a degree. The risk of Perry's producing an heir was too much for Bernard.

I think Worth was genuinely surprised at Judith's wilfulness and didn't think it possible that she wouldn't see how improper it was for her to drive a curricle to Bath. (That is odd, actually.) And he was hurt by her statement that she mistrusted him, and had always done so, just when he was doing his best to keep her and Perry safe and when he had done nothing to justify this. Also, they had been getting on much better, even though he was still keeping her at arm's length because she was still his ward.

So, all in all I understand Worth's behaviour towards Judith more than I used to. But although I like the book better because of that, it is still not one of my favourites. I think this is because there are so few occasions when Judith and Worth get on well together, and therefore very little of the banter between hero and heroine which I like. I suppose the same could be said of The Grand Sophy (which is one of my favourites), but I really like Sophy. In contrast, I find Judith rather tedious. Someone has compared her to Jane Austen's Emma; I don't thing she's as bad as that because at least she doesn't keep interfering in everyone else's life on the assumption that she knows best. However, there are similarities -- she also thinks she knows best!

There are some really good scenes in the book, so I did enjoy re-reading it. But I won't choose it again for quite a while.

Apologies for the very long post! What do you think??


message 29: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 09, 2015 04:42PM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
HJ Apologies for the very long post! What do you think??

What do I think?I think you should put this up as a review! Very good analysis indeed!

I would just make the minor alteration that Worth took his duties as a guardian seriously only after Judith & Perry came to London. Before that he was seriously negligent.

Also some good points about the inheritance.

I think Bernard is quite a complex character. I don't know that he loved Judith (in fact, I'm quite sure he didn't!) but he became obsessed by both her & his hatred of Worth & in the end this was almost as important to him as getting his hands on Judith & Perry's money.


message 30: by HJ (new)

HJ | 948 comments ***Carol*** wrote: " HJ Apologies for the very long post! What do you think??

... I would just make the minor alteration that Worth took his duties as a guardian seriously only after Judith & Perry came to London. Before that he was seriously negligent...."


You're absolutely right. He should have gone up to Yorkshire straight away to check on the estate etc. and organise care of Judith and Perry.


message 31: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (last edited May 10, 2015 02:10AM) (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
& I'll now just mention the two reasons this isn't quite a 5* book for me.

1/ When I first read this book I was only 12/13 so wasn't too familiar with romance writing conventions & I preferred both Bernard & Charles to Worth. Now as an older reader I see Bernard as the sneaky scoundrel he is! But I still see making Charles so appealing as a weakness of this book (shared by making Gideon so appealing in The Foundling)

2/ Worth threatening t beat Judith. After the curricle race it was understandable - to a point as Worth was in a towering rage. But he says it again! It's just never sat well with me.


message 32: by Talltree (new)

Talltree HJ wrote: "I love Kate Ross too!

This time as I listened to Regency Buck, because I already knew the ending, I was concentrating on

-- how Heyer slips in the the information for the mystery plot e.g. she t..."



Wow, HJ, I agree with everything that you said, except I like RB more than the Grand Sophy. I like imperfect heroines and while I loved Sophy , EVERYONE loved her and she always had an answer for everything, nothing fazed Sophy - wish there were more confident heroines like Sophy - but still Judith seemed more real and loveable.


message 33: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments I think Judith's besetting sin to me was being born without a sense of the ridiculous. Although I like her-and I do think she's likable-I don't love her. My best friends have to be able to laugh, both at and with me. I would find her hard to live with, because these kinds of people have to be treated carefully and not spontaneously.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1136 comments Karlyne,

I think since Judith has no sense of the ridiculous, I will also that there is not much humor in her either.

In RL if I had to interact with someone like Judith on a regular basis, I would feel the need to walk on egg shells with them so that I would not upset them.


message 35: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments HJ wrote: "I love Kate Ross too!

This time as I listened to Regency Buck, because I already knew the ending, I was concentrating on

-- how Heyer slips in the the information for the mystery plot e.g. she t..."


That was a great review, Hj!


message 36: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Karlyne,

I think since Judith has no sense of the ridiculous, I will also that there is not much humor in her either.

In RL if I had to interact with someone like Judith on a regular basis, I wou..."


Exactly! I can feel affection for humorless people-they're often gentle souls- but it's hard to be natural around them, because you don't want to inadvertently hurt their feelings or leave them out of the conversation.


message 37: by Hana (new)

Hana | 652 comments HJ, that's a brilliant analysis. I also thought they mystery was done more effectively in Regency Buck than in many of her contemporary mysteries. The misdirection and all the little clues scattered everywhere--very skillfully done.

I've always liked Regency Buck more for the historical details and minor characters than for the romance, though this time around I liked Worth much better and had more respect for him.


message 38: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments Hana wrote: "HJ, that's a brilliant analysis. I also thought they mystery was done more effectively in Regency Buck than in many of her contemporary mysteries. The misdirection and all the little clues scattere..."

In giving Worth plausibility, almost a probability, as a villain I thought she was at the top of her form, too, Hana. And making Bernard likable and the Admiral not was masterful.


message 39: by HJ (new)

HJ | 948 comments Hana wrote: "HJ, that's a brilliant analysis. I also thought they mystery was done more effectively in Regency Buck than in many of her contemporary mysteries. The misdirection and all the little clues scattere..."

Thank you, Hana, and the others who have commented favourably on my essay!


message 40: by HJ (new)

HJ | 948 comments Karlyne wrote: "In giving Worth plausibility, almost a probability, as a villain I thought she was at the top of her form, too, Hana. And making Bernard likable and the Admiral not was masterful. ..."

I agree. I think this was also an early manifestation of her belief that wickedness is inherited. The Admiral was not to be trusted and his son was the same, but just hid it better. Given that the Admiral and the father of Judith and Perry were brothers, clearly (in Heyer's idea of the world) it wasn't inevitable that all children would inherit the bad traits.

I'm seeing it again in The Toll Gate, which I'm re-reading. Cousin Henry's father married someone Nell's grandfather didn't approve of, and now grandfather is saying that there's bad blood showing in Henry.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1136 comments HJ wrote: "I love Kate Ross too!

This time as I listened to Regency Buck, because I already knew the ending, I was concentrating on

-- how Heyer slips in the the information for the mystery plot e.g. she t..."


I don't mind a long post at all. Thank you for it.

This is a masterful analysis. You brought up a lot of insights that I missed on multiple readings of this book.


message 42: by HJ (new)

HJ | 948 comments Thanks, Andrea! I was trying to work out for myself why it isn't one of my favourites, so concentrated more this time.


message 43: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
HJ wrote: "Thanks, Andrea! I was trying to work out for myself why it isn't one of my favourites, so concentrated more this time."

Ha! I read this comment, then went to bed. & then it came to me - neither Worth or Judith are loveable! That's the weakness! & this is why Why Shoot a Butler's (view spoiler)


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1136 comments ***Carol*** wrote: "HJ wrote: "Thanks, Andrea! I was trying to work out for myself why it isn't one of my favourites, so concentrated more this time."

Ha! I read this comment, then went to bed. & then it came to me ..."


I think you are right. Judith and Worth are not likable but Worth was amusing for masterfully pushing Judith buttons and she was amusing for always falling for it.


message 45: by HJ (new)

HJ | 948 comments ***Carol*** wrote: "... & then it came to me - neither Worth or Judith are loveable! That's the weakness! ..."

I think you're right. I can understand why Worth isn't loveable, because GH had to make us believe him to be a villain. But why didn't she make Judith more loveable? And what is it about her that isn't likeable?

I think it's her bad temper. We're perfectly happy with strong-minded females, so I don't think it's that. It's because she *stops* being strong-minded and instead behaves irrationally because she's cross, and behaves like a spoilt child whenever her will is crossed. She is so convinced that she is always right. And that is probably because, for the sake of the plot, she has to be ready to believe the worst of Worth and the best of Bernard with very little evidence either way.


message 46: by Elza (new)

Elza (emr1) | 296 comments HJ wrote: "for the sake of the plot, she has to be ready to believe the worst of Worth and the best of Bernard with very little evidence either way. "

And, to be fair, the only thing she has to go by at first is how they treat her. Worth is overbearing, dismissive, and takes liberties without her permission. Bernard is polite and obviously admires her. It's as she sees them more in society that she begins to notice their differences.


message 47: by Karlyne (new)

Karlyne Landrum | 3895 comments And she must have, sub-consciously anyway, begun to see their differences even before she actually knew the truth, because she wasn't all that surprised at Bernard's kidnapping. She figures it out quickly and doesn't waste any time being shocked. She's angry at him, but I think even more at herself for not realizing the truth sooner. I like her better during this scene, because she does display intelligence and courage.


message 48: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
Yeah, good luck with Bernard thinking he was going to shame her into marriage. Judith was a strong minded character!


message 49: by Hana (last edited May 15, 2015 04:40AM) (new)

Hana | 652 comments HJ wrote: " It's because she *stops* being strong-minded and instead behaves irrationally because she's cross, and behaves like a spoilt child whenever her will is crossed. She is so convinced that she is always right..."

I don't find Judith particularly likable, but I do find her very believable. I actually don't think she is strong-minded--at least not yet. I think she's mostly young and used to having her own way. She's willful, she's impulsive, she has a bad temper and gets herself into situations that are questionable. But when she's at her most vulnerable, we see she really loves her brother and is coming to care for Worth.

I also have a sense that some of her problem stems from insecurity. Judith really wants to be accepted by the ton and when she gets dubbed "the milkmaid" she's really mortified, as she is after the stupid curricle race.

What she does have is the ability to bounce back. I have to admire her guts and effrontery--taking Beau Brummel's excellent advice on driving everywhere; or cultivating deliberately eccentric habits like snuff-taking.

I rather like Judith and Worth's potential as a couple. I suspect he'll be very good for her and once she no longer feels threatened on all sides she'll mellow out.

What do you all think of their chances of a good marriage?


message 50: by Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , Madam Mod (new)

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4326 comments Mod
I think Judith is strong minded as she is willing to risk almost certain social ruin rather than a miserable marriage with Bernard.

If Worth hadn't appeared, I wonder what Bernard would have done. He believed he had disposed of Perry, would he have murdered Judith too?

Hana I'll mention that Judith & Worth reappear in AIA. Based on my reading of Regency Buck I have a problem with the threatening to beat Judith thing - even though he obviously adores her. I feel any compromising would end up being on Judith's side.


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