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Group Reads Discussions 2009
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The Handmaid's Tale - Reading in Progress First Half - Spoilers
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Mawgojzeta
(last edited Nov 03, 2009 11:38AM)
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Nov 03, 2009 09:30AM
What do you think so far (up to the halfway point)?
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We should pick a cutoff point for spoilers for this thread. There are 15 chapters and 295 pages total in my edition of The Handmaid's Tale. Maybe discuss up to the end of Chapter VIII, "Birth Day", here? (Page 140 in my edition).
As I recall there is a natural break point in the text.
Brenda wrote: "As I recall there is a natural break point in the text."Thanks for chiming in, Brenda!
I looked again, but I don't see a Part I/Part II type breakdown. The book has 15 sections, labelled by Roman numerals, I - XV. The sections alternate, so every other title is "Night", except for one titled "Nap". Each section has one or more chapters, numbered 1 - 46. If anyone sees another separation point, let me know!
I've read the first 5 chapters so far (I Night, II Shopping, III Night, IV Waiting Room, V Nap). There's an increasing sense of oppression as the novel is progressing. It's sad for the protagonist that she is trying to fit in and follow the oppressive rules. In Chapter IV there's a clue: our narrator talks about her daughter. She discusses how the last time she saw her daughter, her daughter was 5 years old. Now her daughter is 8 years old. This tells me that the Guardian regime is newly in power, less than 5 years and possibly only 3 years duration.Remember this novel was first published in 1985. I think that the character of Serena Joy is based on (inspired by?) Tammy Faye Bakker (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Fa...). The descriptions certainly match, and Tammy Faye and her husband had a media boomlet going on in the early 1980s.
Good catch on the Tammy Faye thing. I hadn't thought about that.
Two things. Is the doctor really trying to help or is he just a perv? Also, it's absolutely forbidden in this culture to say that a man can be infertile. So why do they give the Handmaid's three postings?
I thought the doctor was just taking advantage of the women's desperation - so, help himself and the woman.I believe the three tries is because though they won't admit a man may be infertile, they all know it's possible. And also, since she has no control over the timing, the "ceremony" might not take place at her fertile time of the month. And, even two fertile people aren't always able to conceive for whatever reason.
Just got to that scene, it made me very anxious and uncomfortable. I agree with Michele's take on it, although with more emphasis on the "perv" aspect you are asking about. Meaning, I think his primary interest was his own gratification, something about the helpless woman and his power. This seemed supported by the "impatient" way he was touching her during their conversation. Perhaps he picks and chooses them by type, maybe he only waits until their charts make them more desperate. My theory is that his interest in helping them get pregnant is purely a justification, a way of saying to himself, "I'm a nice guy", or, "I'm giving them something they need".
Plus it doesn't really sound like the men in town have many options. Eww. Did I just say that?
He is definitely a perv in my book. And I agree, Eww.
Michael wrote: "I agree with Michele's take on it, although with more emphasis on the "perv" aspect you are asking about. Meaning, I think his primary interest was his own gratification, something about the helpless woman and his power."Yes that was my take as well. Perv all the way.
Sarah wrote: "Plus it doesn't really sound like the men in town have many options. Eww. Did I just say that?"
I couldn't help but notice the constant undercurrent of sexual repression throughout this whole section, which I think is obviously a dominant theme here.
My original impression leading in to this chapter had been that men were all chauvinistic pigs, controlling and dominating the women. But as the chapter ends with the whole Scrabble game, I am beginning to wonder about this. The men seem in many ways to be as controlled and scared as the women. How much are they too being caught up and messed with by this screwed up society?
I thought it really benefitted wealthy men the most but I had forgotten about the Scrabble game. It's such a lonely world.Which makes me wonder why they've separated everything so rigidly. Everybody is completely cut off from any kind of intimacy with each other. Even friendship is not allowed.
Actually the interaction she had with the border guards made me think of how terribly lonely the men must be. He just wanted to look at the face of a beautiful woman.
Is there anyone who would choose to be a Handmaid? There's some more info coming about their lot, but as the book stands, would anyone choose that? I would rather be a Martha.
I am certain you get no choice, or about as much choice as you get being born in Wyoming, or France. If there is any agency, it's sure not with the woman.
She said something at one point about selecting it or a choice. I thought it was during the butter scene but I can't find it. Hopefully it mentions it again.
Copying from first impressions thread...Steve said, "I guess I'm just hard like boiled leather. I feel the oppression in the book, and it makes me think of more oppressive societies that parallel this fictional setting, yet all I can think is 'why would people put up with this?'
On about page 70 or so, waiting for a shoe to drop, then the other shoe."
Sarah said, "I do wonder about that. This society is three years old, or her party in it at least. I can understand cooperating rather than getting burned at the stake or something, but I don't get this."
What about hung from a hook? Though I don't know what happens to the women yet at page 70 where I am; we've just seen the Men Salvaging.
Cults are powerful, and if I were trapped in one against my will, I would not want to f*ck with them unless I had a clear escape plan. I'm not sure what the odds are of having a cult be the predominant culture of an entire country, though. Or maybe she is making the observation that human socialization and cults share common systems?
Edited: Or that what is "usual" to us, is a "cult" to someone else, and vice versa...
Offred says something at one point about North Dakota or Wyoming. I'm not sure of the state other than it was snowy. Anyway, it sounds like the whole country is not necessarily working together but maybe off the same template?The Salvaging is pretty awful.
I think this would have been more convincing to me if set outside of the US or on a smaller scale. I eventually gave up on suspending my disbelief and concentrated in the character study. Sadly oppression similar to this already exists I the world and did in 1985 certainly.
I think it would have been easier for me if it had been a mythical country.
I'm now at page 104, and I just have to say, wow, this is becoming hard to get through. I keep thinking of other books to read in order to get little breaks from this one. I will carry on, but wow, there is so little good to take away from all of this so far...
It has that same feel all the way through, Michael. I love this book but I can definitely see that it's not for everyone. Small doses might be the way to go (or giving up!).
I've only been able to read a little at a time. It evokes thoughts of battles going on in the world now of oppression. I'll make it through, but, wow.....
I need to stay off the no spoiler threads. I always mess up.About the 3 years that this has been going on. It does look like she and her daughter were captured three years ago, but they were making a run for it so the society must have been at least partially established.
Was I just confused or did she and Luke get a divorce at one point and he remarried, but then they were trying to leave together. What was up with that?
My impressions of the lives of these women were of profound loneliness. Imagine that your only worth as a human being is whether you can have a child. I found this book to be disturbing on so many levels.
Sarah wrote: "I need to stay off the no spoiler threads. I always mess up."And this book, with the constant flashbacks, sure makes this hard. I am for this reason trying to avoid discussing anything concrete until I finish.
Michael wrote: "I'm now at page 104, and I just have to say, wow, this is becoming hard to get through. I keep thinking of other books to read in order to get little breaks from this one. I will carry on, but wow, there is so little good to take away from all of this so far..."Yup. I too have been taking this one in small increments to "savor" it.....or maybe to avoid triggering a bout of depression.
And to compound the problem, I am also listening to Still Alice on audio-book, another cheerful and uplifting experience.
Edwin wrote: "And to compound the problem, I am also listening to Still Alice on audio-book, another cheerful and uplifting experience.":)
Wow, that looks really good. And harrowing, of course.
Ruth wrote: "My impressions of the lives of these women were of profound loneliness. Imagine that your only worth as a human being is whether you can have a child. I found this book to be disturbing on so many levels."Yes, I just added this quote from the book: "I want to be held and told my name. I want to be valued, in ways that I am not; I want to be more than valuable."
I've heard the idea before that putting women on a pedestal, worshiping them, is not the same as respecting them. I've even agreed with it and used it in arguments. But I don't think I really "got it" before now. By the time we get to this quote, we have such a clear picture of (a) how valuable her role in this society is, how so many allowances and rituals are set up just for women in her position, and (b) how everyone just treats her like a welcome mat, or a pariah, or an untouchable, or a tool, or a source of resentment. She is so valuable, but her value is as a womb, as a vessel. As a valuable urn that you keep up on a shelf, and only take down daily for dusting.
Lonely is a good description. And alienated, and objectified. The essential object. Conversations may happen nearby you on your shelf, but you are never spoken to, almost never even noticed.
I wonder if this is the same loneliness her mother talked about: "I was so lonely, she'd say. You have no idea how lonely I was. And I had friends, I was a lucky one, but I was lonely anyway." It seems like Ms. Atwood is taking the "Othering" of women to its natural extreme. What does it say about the less obvious, less harsh versions still at work in our society? Are more muted versions of loneliness and depression the universal side effect of being seen as Other? It seems, in some strange way, to be loneliness that is driving the Commander to reach out to Offred for some sort of peer-like relationship. Even he, it seems, cannot abide with women only as things. It's a powerful idea, and I'm glad to finally be "getting" it. For this idea alone I think the book is worth reading.
I am halfway through and its a sad story so far. No one is happy and everyone feels so lonely. I don't know why they're so adamant on retaining this whole system and not dissolve such oppressive society and be free.
I'm wondering what they gain within this society.
Sarah wrote: "I need to stay off the no spoiler threads. I always mess up.About the 3 years that this has been going on. It does look like she and her daughter were captured three years ago, but they were ma...
Was I just confused or did she and Luke get a divorce at one point and he remarried, but then they were trying to leave together. What was up with that? "
My read of it: Luke was married to somebody else when she met him; he divorced his wife and married her. After the coup, and women's rights were repealed, her relationship with Luke changed from one of equals to one of her dependent on him; and she wasn't sure it would survive the change in status. Of course, they never got the chance to find out if it would.
Oh! I completely forgot about something that happens later regarding this. I wonder if I just haven't gotten that far. But yes, that makes sense.
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