Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Pilgrim's Progress
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Pilgrim's Progress Week 2
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Nemo wrote: "The ring has the power to corrupt many creatures and bend their will to do its bidding. The eagles could have carried it to Sauron instead. "
Nah, we would have ended up with Gwaihir the Ringlord.
Mary wrote: "Nemo wrote: "The ring has the power to corrupt many creatures and bend their will to do its bidding. The eagles could have carried it to Sauron instead. "
Nah, we would have ended up with Gwaihir..."
Oh yes, that is another possibility. :) Planet of the Birds.
Nemo wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Re: "Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious"Laurel, Lily and Roger have used those words to describe some characters in PP (or even the book itself). When I read PP, those w..."
You're right, Nemo. Sorry!
No worries. :) I was just wondering why what seem didactic and pompous to others do not seem so to me. (Perhaps I am that way myself, and people are too polite to tell me to my face. In which case, I'll never know.)
Nemo wrote: "(Perhaps I am that way myself, and people are too polite to tell me to my face. In which case, I'll never know.) "Still pondering how, even if, to respond to your query, re didactic and sanctimonious, Nemo.
In the meantime, I'll tell of a meditation I have perhaps mentioned before that helped me through one particularly difficult period: it consisted of taking a series of "positive" words and saying to each of them I am ..., you are ..., she is.... It surprised me to learn that I could somehow relate to every one of them, claiming some aspect thereof, even while definitely not other characteristics.
The "logical" next, but rather different step, was to realize I could also take a series of negative words and do a similar meditation, picking out for each word its aspects to which I might lay claim. (This twist had not been proffered with the original prescription for climbing out of "a slough of despair"!)
For me, the two exercises have become an exploration of the mystery and complexity of being human.
So I've never read the novel Vanity Fair. I'm guessing the title is from PP? Wonder how many PP allusions I've missed in the past.
Lily wrote: "Nemo wrote: "(Perhaps I am that way myself, and people are too polite to tell me to my face. In which case, I'll never know.) "Still pondering how, even if, to respond to your query, re didactic ..."
Thank you for the response, Lily, though it does not directly answer my query. It is a nice follow-up to our week 1 discussion on personality traits.
When you meditate on the negative (and positive) characteristics, do you consider whether they are negative in and of themselves, or because of their connection with other negative characteristics? For example, I think of "talkative" as a neutral personality traits, but because it is often connected with hypocrisy or self-conceit, as in the case of Mr. Talkative, it becomes negative.
Hollyinnnv wrote: "So I've never read the novel Vanity Fair. I'm guessing the title is from PP? Wonder how many PP allusions I've missed in the past."I thought of The Screwtape Letters when reading the following passage in PP:
I took notice that now poor Christian was so confounded that he did not know his own voice; and thus I perceived it: just when he was come over against the mouth of the burning pit, one of the wicked ones got behind him, and stepped up softly to him, and whisperingly suggested many wicked words to him, which he verily thought had proceeded from his own mind.
Everyman wrote: "Before leaving Palace Beautiful he is shown all sorts of marvels (how did the nail of Sisera get into a Christian library?), most of the marvels being from the Old Testament."Which Sisera were you thinking about? The story of Sisera being killed by a woman with a tent peg is in the Old Testament (Judges 4).
Nemo wrote: "When you meditate on the negative (and positive) characteristics, do you consider whether they are negative in and of themselves, or because of their connection with other negative characteristics? For example, I think of "talkative" as a neutral personality traits, but because it is often connected with hypocrisy or self-conceit, as in the case of Mr. Talkative, it becomes negative. ,..."Been awhile since I did the exercises, but the original one had things like courage, bravery, kindness, .... as "positive" traits if I remember correctly. I think the point is using simple exercises to explore self awareness to another level if possible.
Nemo wrote: "Hollyinnnv wrote: "So I've never read the novel Vanity Fair. I'm guessing the title is from PP? Wonder how many PP allusions I've missed in the past."I thought of [book:The Screwtape Letters|1738..."
C. S. Lewis wrote a semi-autobiographical allegory called "The Pilgrim's Regress." And yes, Holly; Thackery got his title from Bunyan.
Laurel wrote: "C. S. Lewis wrote a semi-autobiographical allegory called "The Pilgrim's Regress"."Why did Lewis call it "regress", did he mean re-gress?
This is another puzzling thing (to me at least) about PP: How does Christian know he is making "progress"?
by sticking to the straight and narrow way.
Nemo wrote: "Laurel wrote: "C. S. Lewis wrote a semi-autobiographical allegory called "The Pilgrim's Regress"."Why did Lewis call it "regress", did he mean re-gress?
This is another puzzling thing (to me at..."
Lewis's protagonist kept getting it wrong and going backwards. But I think he finally got it right in the end. It's been years since I read it!
Nemo,I wonder if talkative is more aptly named Alltalk(no action)? I think his problem is he doesn't practice what he preaches, more than the amount of talk.
Holly
Laurel,Yay, my guess was right. Your post jogged my memory, too. I had always wanted to read PP, but I couldn't remember why. It's because Jo reads it in Little Women, one of my favorite childhood books.
Holly
Adelle wrote: "EVERYMAN: From reading his roll? We never really know what's in it, do we? But he does read it quite a bit, and presumably it has good advice for him."I don't really think we see him read it, but he put it in his bosom--- which I took to mean he put it in his heart."
"the third also set a mark on his forehead, and gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bade him look on as he ran, " (Gutenberg 94)
"Then, I saw that they went on all, save that Christian kept before, who had no more talk but with himself, and that sometimes sighingly, and sometimes comfortably; also he would be often reading in the roll that one of the Shining Ones gave him, by which he was refreshed." (Gutenberg 102)
"thither, therefore, Christian got, where also he sat down to rest him. Then he pulled his roll out of his bosom, and read therein to his comfort;" (Gutenberg 105)
" But, thinking again of what he had heard from the men, he felt in his bosom for his roll, that he might read therein, and be comforted; but he felt, and found it not. Then was Christian in great distress, and knew not what to do; for he wanted that which used to relieve him, " (Gutenberg 107)
It does seem to me that he relies quite considerably on reading his roll, both for comfort and for instruction.
I can't argue with the text. ;-)
It is as you say: he reads for instruction and comfort.
It is as you say: he reads for instruction and comfort.
Hollyinnnv wrote: "Nemo,I wonder if talkative is more aptly named Alltalk(no action)? I think his problem is he doesn't practice what he preaches, more than the amount of talk.
Holly"
Yes, that is the problem. His action belies his words, and shows him a hypocrite. Bunyan likens Mr. Talkative to pictures that "show best at a distance, but, very near, more unpleasing." A very apt comparison.
Apollyon is an odd character in PP.( His seductive wiles and menaces remind me of Smaug.)He is not an allegory of personal characters like Sloth, Faithful or Talkative, not is he a direct reference to beings in the Bible like the Shining Ones (though his name appears therein).
Where did Bunyan get the inspiration for Apollyon?
Apollyon is the Greek form of Abaddon." And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." Revelation
The name is from Revelation, but what amazes me is how Bunyan created a whole character from nothing but a name.
Nemo wrote: "The name is from Revelation, but what amazes me is how Bunyan created a whole character from nothing but a name."Well, yes, but he is given as an angel of the bottomless pit, which I assume means he's one of the fallen angels, or devils. There was quite a mythology, if I may use that term, of the Christian fallen angels, not the least of which was the very vivid descriptions in Paradise Lost, which was published 11 years before PP. I have no idea whether Bunyan was familiar with it, but they may both have drawn on the same earlier descriptions of fallen angels and some of the Renaissance artworks showing devils (and the earlier Gothic cathedral sculptures which showed quite dramatic renditions of the inhabitants of Hell).
Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "The name is from Revelation, but what amazes me is how Bunyan created a whole character from nothing but a name."Well, yes, but he is given as an angel of the bottomless pit, which I..."
If Apollyon is a fallen angel, he would be the only literal and fleshed-out character in PP. It just seems odd to me why Bunyan made him so.
The ring has the power to corrupt many creatures and bend their will to do its bidding. The eagles could have carried it to Sauron instead. There are no shortcuts, not in LOTR, nor in PP.
What are the "shortcuts" and "bypaths" in PP that Christian must avoid? I wish Bunyan gave more hints.