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Pilgrim's Progress > Pilgrim's Progress Week 2

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message 1: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Week 2

Christian awakes with, quite literally, a song on his lips.

BTW, one little thing that confuses me a bit. Earlier I assumed that the Lord of the Hill was God. But now we are told that the Lord of the Hill has a pedigree, and is the son of the Ancient of Days. Does that mean the Lord of the Hill is actually Jesus, and that God is the Ancient of Days?

Anyhow. Before leaving Palace Beautiful he is shown all sorts of marvels (how did the nail of Sisera get into a Christian library?), most of the marvels being from the Old Testament. This takes a whole day, and he stays even longer (not all that eager to move forward with his quest? But in a comfortable castle in the company of charming and beautiful virgins, can one blame him? What does this say about the way in which comfort and pleasure can divert anybody from their quest?) Before leaving he is taken to the top of the tower and shown the Delectable mountains, and is also given weapons to protect himself against assaults he may encounter (there are evil people who have gotten into this part of the road? Or will this just be about more lions and wild beasts? Read on!)

Onward, overcoming dangers with almost every step, he passes the mouth of Hell, then meets another Pilgrim – unless I miss something the first other Pilgrim he has met – who happens to be a neighbor from his own town. Somebody had commented last week on his having travel alone rather than with others to support him; now he gets a companion in Faithful.

They meet another resident of their town, Talkative, who lives in Prating Row (of course none of us have ever come across such a person in our lives, have we?). Faithful, Christian, and Talkative have a lengthy theological discourse which will probably merit some discussion. They are then joined by Evangelist. Does he travel this way and back often?

They then, in one of the better known incidents in the book (thanks partly to Thackeray?) encounter Vanity Fair, where they are imprisoned and Faithful is killed for his faith (sadly, an incident that is all to relevant even to today’s world). Eventually Christian escapes from prison (one area where Bunyan is uncharacteristically silent on details) and proceeds on his journey, joined by a new companion, Hopeful.

After the plain of ease they come to the hill of Lucre, where Demas invites them to dig in the silver mine. Christian demurs, knowing that lucre is false treasure, but By-Ends and his companions who were met and discoursing on the road join Demas and they all fall somehow into the pit of the silver mine and are never seen again.

Which is the end of the second week’s reading. If you have trouble finding this exact episode, it’s paragraph 271 of the Gutenberg edition, page 105 of the Oxford World Classics edition.

There’s a great deal to discuss in this week’s section, so have at it!


message 2: by Roger (new)

Roger Burk | 1733 comments The "Ancient of Days" of Daniel 7:9, which seems to be an anthropomorphic vision of Yahweh, is usually taken in the Christian West to be a vision of God the Father. (In the Christian East, it is often interpreted as a vision of God the Son as a timeless lord of wisdom, on the grounds that God the Father cannot be represented in an image.)


message 3: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Christian is urged to spend more time in the Palace Beautiful because he has things to learn there and armor to put on.


message 4: by Roger (new)

Roger Burk | 1733 comments What do we think of Faithful's conversation with Talkative? First he lays on him a lot of pompous God-talk, out-talking Talkative, apparently in a deliberate attempt to annoy him. Then he gives him a scolding for his zealless behavior. This drives Talkative away, and no wonder. I found Faithful to be obnoxious.


message 5: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Talkative reminds me of a character in Jane Austen.


message 6: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5057 comments Laurel wrote: "Talkative reminds me of a character in Jane Austen."

Which one(s), Laurel, if that doesn't put you on the spot, which is not my intent. Just curious, because an obvious choice didn't jump to mind, but I know there are talkative characters among hers.


message 7: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5057 comments Roger wrote: "What do we think of Faithful's conversation with Talkative? First he lays on him a lot of pompous God-talk, out-talking Talkative, apparently in a deliberate attempt to annoy him. Then he gives h..."

Roger -- you touch on why I find books like PP difficult to read. Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious are all epithets that I find I must discipline myself to avoid -- that said, so far, I have been okay with PP to a greater extent than I expected.


message 8: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Lily wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Talkative reminds me of a character in Jane Austen."

Which one(s), Laurel, if that doesn't put you on the spot, which is not my intent. Just curious, because an obvious choice didn..."


I think it's probably Mr Collins. Mainly, though, I smiled to myself as he was going on and thought, "Jane Austen could have written this!"


message 9: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Lily wrote: "Roger wrote: "What do we think of Faithful's conversation with Talkative? First he lays on him a lot of pompous God-talk, out-talking Talkative, apparently in a deliberate attempt to annoy him. T..."

Faithful was very much impressed with Talkative at first, but after listening to him rattle on, and upon learning something of his history, Faithful realized that Talkatve was all talk and no action and that he was more interested in talking than in listening. I don't think Faithful was trying to annoy him, just hoping he would listen to a different perspective. He didn't drive him away; Talkative just was not interested in a two-way conversation. To me, "Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious " is a good description of Talkatve—a TV evangelist.


message 10: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5057 comments Laurel wrote: "...I think it's probably Mr Collins. Mainly, though, I smiled to myself as he was going on and thought, "Jane Austen could have written this!" ..."

Thx, Laurel! Mr. Collins was probably the closest that came to me immediately. But I'd have had to go back and look more closely. But I like your alternative description, "Jane could have written" -- will think about that as I read!


message 11: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 249 comments Sorry about the late start my library lent this out just as I went to download it (how dare they!). Just caught up now but it's going to take me a while to read through everyones comments.

Love the Mr Collins thought, that got a smirk :-)


message 12: by David (new)

David  | 8 comments At first I was sympathetic to Talkative, and I can see how it looks like Faithful and Christian did not even give him a chance. But as I read...well without getting too personal, I saw a lot of myself in Talkative. I mean, I am a Christian but I live quite a comfortable life. I know a good bit of the Bible and theology and can give a good answer to most questions. But I was challenged...do I walk the walk? Are my eyes open to the needs of those around me? Do I help people in need?

I think this is the value in a book like this, and I would imagine you do not have to be a Christian to be hit by it - there is more to life then talking. As a Christian, the best Christians I know tend to possess the least theological knowledge while some of the most arrogant and self-centered are the most intelligent. Perhaps it was the same in Bunyan's day which is how Talkative ends up in the story.


message 13: by David (new)

David  | 8 comments A few other things I liked:

I thought it was interesting how Christian thought about retreating from Apollyon but realized he had no armor for his back.

Also with Apollyon, he taunts Christian about so many Christians who have been "shamefully put to death" while those who go with Apollyon are protected by his power. This clearly points to the tradition of martyrdom in the church and I suspect is personal to Bunyan, writing in prison.

I thought it was amusing that Pope and Pagan were together in a cave; clearly Bunyan is not a fan of Roman Catholics. I do wonder how this would play today. I mean, at least in my experience, Christians tend to be more accepting of other Christians. We all love Pope Francis, for example! Who would a modern-day Bunyan put in the cave with "Pagan" and what does that say about us today, I wonder?


message 14: by Roger (new)

Roger Burk | 1733 comments Christian seems to have grown a bit. He's not the lost wandering soul he was. He gives advice to Faithful, and then to Hopeful, and he's the first to recognize the perils on the path. I'm not wure where he got this wisdom.


message 15: by Hilary (new)

Hilary (agapoyesoun) | 229 comments David, how about Richard Dawkins in place of the Pope, though frankly his theological understanding is pitiful? He is a biologist and he'd be better so to remain. He may be a popular choice, though I suppose it would have to be someone who is seen to have a similar standard of theology to the Pope. Mmm, that's a question...

I cringed at the rapid disposal of Faithful. Bunyan's lack of elaboration was reminiscent of the understated records In the gospels of the crucifixion. The lack of detail deals a more powerful punch.


message 16: by Roger (new)

Roger Burk | 1733 comments Yes, it's shocking how Faithful gets done in just after we've come to accept him as a protagonist. It's like some heartless incident in Game of Thrones. Then we get Christian's escape, without any indication of whether it's by rescue, miracle. or chance. It's a dreamlike jump-cut. Which, come to think of it, maybe isn't inappropriate.


message 17: by Hilary (new)

Hilary (agapoyesoun) | 229 comments Oh yes, Roger, I hadn't thought of the dream explanation here. That makes sense.


message 18: by Adelle (last edited Apr 24, 2015 02:40PM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments Laurel wrote: "Christian is urged to spend more time in the Palace Beautiful because he has things to learn there and armor to put on."

I think so, too, Laurel. It wasn't that Christian himself wanted to stay. "He got up to go forwards, but they desired him to stay until the next day also" (58). Like Laurel points out, he needs to learn more and he needs to be to be properly armed.


message 19: by Adelle (new)

Adelle | 148 comments Everyman and Laurel influenced me to look closer at Discretion. The Porter, remember, was Watchful, and could see those who approached. He could even call out encouragement to them. But the Porter isn’t qualified to make the decision as to whether or not Christian can spend the night. There are, apparently Laws of the House.

So the Porter summons the “grave and beautiful damsel” Discretion. “Having the quality or showing discernment or good judgment.”

As there’s a soul at stake it’s well and good that she be grave. Souls are serious concerns. And isn’t she beautiful, indeed! She doesn’t make any assumptions about Christian! So often, when we meet someone, we immediately make assumptions about them. But not Discretion. She asks many, many questions before she makes her judgment.


message 20: by Hilary (new)

Hilary (agapoyesoun) | 229 comments Ok, this is a comment that probably belongs in thread one, but I'm wondering whether we are to believe that should Christian wander from the way he cannot make his way to the Celestial City. If someone does not bring him back to the true path is he forever damned? I'm not intending to jump ahead here nor actually engage in proleptic thinking, It's the principle I'm questioning.

In the first thread there was some talk of not knowing we are saved until we die. In a sense I get this, as we cannot KNOW anything. We cannot know that God exists otherwise it is not faith.

Bunyan believed in the Calvinist perseverance of the saints as did many such as John Newton and Isaac Watts. Their difficulty appears to have been a lack of certainty. The saints would persevere, but how could they be CERTAIN that they found themselves numbered among the saints. Were they sincere in their profession of faith? If not then how could they have assurance of salvation? The once saved always saved belief as embraced in the P part of TULIP, was for them tainted by lack of assurance. Isaac Watts almost drove himself crazy in this search for assurance of salvation. William Cowper did find himself even further over the edge of mental derangement. In this way, their brand of Calvinism seems very close to Arminian doctrine, branded by some Calvinists as a daisy plucking theology of the 'he loves me he loves me not' ilk.

Personally, I believe that assurance of salvation is attainable. In Romans 10:9 we are told that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead we shall be saved. In the koine Greek of the New Testament the word 'confess' is translated from a tense that means effectively 'if we confess once'. It is a completed action. Also the tense used for 'we shall be' has no 'might' or 'maybe' about it. In this way, and there are many other examples that have slipped my mind, I believe that we can be assured of our salvation in regard to our beliefs though, of course, not in regard to what we know. We may not be good disciples, but grace is so extravagant that it covers a multitude of sins, literally. Ok, I hope I've not diverged too much from Bunyan. I think it's a shame that he had to wrestle with a sort of 'nervous Christianity' though I suppose, selfishly, we wouldn't have had the gift of his pilgrimage passed down to us had he been certain that he would persevere.


message 21: by Adelle (last edited Apr 25, 2015 09:12PM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 4, Roger wrote: "What do we think of Faithful's conversation with Talkative? First he lays on him a lot of pompous God-talk, out-talking Talkative, apparently in a deliberate attempt to annoy him. Then he gives Then he gives him a scolding for his zealless behavior. This drives Talkative away, and no wonder. I found Faithful to be obnoxious. ..."

But you knew he couldn't be, because Obnoxious was still back in City of Destruction, right? :-)

I had problems with Faithful, too.

Looked at from one side, Faithful, seemingly, is supposedly the better Pilgrim. Right? He's made the journey successfully without even visiting the Palace Beautiful. (So.... the theology is that one CAN obtain Salvation without the Church?)

(+)(-) He won't pause for Christian, so dedicated is he to his journey.

(+) He helped Christian up when Christian stumbled.

(+) He says, "I did believe, and do still." So... firmer than Christian.

(+)He's so full of faith that he doesn't even get mired in the Slough of Despond.

(+) He's the one who's killed for his faith and taken directly to Salvation.




(-) Christian asked concerning Pliable. F says, "I met him once in the Streets, but he leered away on the other side, as one ashamed of what he had done (his leaving? or his returning?); so I spake not to him."

I thought that was Faithful taking the easy way out. Would Evangelist have spoken to Pliable?
Or does Evangelist in PP only encourage the Elect?

I know. "The dog is turned... etc." Yet... Pilgrims are supposedly stumbling all along. ("I get knocked down. But I get back up again.)

(-) Faithful... He's so .... cavalier... concerning Pliable. "They are my fears of him too; but who can hinder that which will be?" Again, that just seems as though Faithful is simply taking the easy way.


(-) F is pretty self-righteous regarding Wanton. "She, she, she, she, she." And she probably did --- flatter him, tempt him carnally, etc. But an "I was sadly inclined that way" from Faithful would have been more... self-honest?

(-) F shut his eyes. I thought it would have been ... nobler? more beneficial for self-growth... for him to have strengthened his resolve instead. Someone.... Simply shutting one's eyes doesn't seem the higher course to take through life. It won't be strengthen be shutting his eyes to problems.

(-) His inclination was to go with "the old man" for the daughters, and "the many delights"... So.... he wanted the daughters and the many delights... ("I thought he spake very fair")---- what STOPPED him wasn't that he realized that that would be "wrong." What stopped him was "he [the old man] would sell me for a slave."


I have additional negative impressions of Faithful. But... the last BIG one was regarding Christian/ Talkative. Faithful simply takes what Christians says concerning Talkative as the gospel truth. Why? I wondered, didn't he attempt to come to some sort of judgment concerning Talkative on his own???

In some ways... it seemed to me.... that Faithful was a religious version of Pliable.

I may be missing important aspects.
But that's how it looks to me tonight.


message 22: by Nicola (last edited Apr 26, 2015 04:11AM) (new)

Nicola | 249 comments Adelle wrote: "At 4, Roger wrote: "What do we think of Faithful's conversation with Talkative? First he lays on him a lot of pompous God-talk, out-talking Talkative, apparently in a deliberate attempt to annoy h..."

Very astute comments Adelle, I've agreed with them as I've been reading but given my personal viewpoint I've been reluctant to commit mentally to a firm judgement, 'was I just feeling this way because overly smug self righteous people rub me the wrong way'?

I don't want my personal prejudices to colour my reading, and also my theology isn't exactly rock solid. I feel vindicated that you read it in a similar way.

'but who can hinder what will be' has echoes of pre determinism. I know this has been talked over in the past but I still haven't got it clear in my head as to what Bunyans views are as to this, if I knew that for sure it was make it much clearer what we, the reader, are meant to take away from faithfuls comment there.


message 23: by Adelle (last edited Apr 26, 2015 06:40AM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 12, David wrote: "At first I was sympathetic to Talkative, and I can see how it looks like Faithful and Christian did not even give him a chance. But as I read...well without getting too personal, I saw a lot of myself in Talkative. I mean, I am a Christian but I live quite a comfortable life. I know a good bit of the Bible and theology and can give a good answer to most questions. But I was challenged...do I walk the walk? Are my eyes open to the needs of those around me? Do I help people in need?

I LOVE that, David! That's my perspective, too. I see indictments against myself as I read this book. "Oh.... I do "x", too. Ah... I could and should do "y" better." It's a wonderful self-examination, I think.


message 24: by Adelle (last edited Apr 26, 2015 06:34AM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 20, Hilary wrote: "Ok, this is a comment that probably belongs in thread one, but I'm wondering whether we are to believe that should Christian wander from the way he cannot make his way to the Celestial City. If so..."

Good post, Hilary. I have to give it some thought.


message 25: by Adelle (new)

Adelle | 148 comments Over in the Week 1 Discussion, Paul posted (#287) this morning: “… while only the hero of his story is named Christian, many or most of the other characters would, in real, nonallegorical life, also call themselves "Christian." Indeed, they might be prominent members of their respective churches. I believe that Bunyan calls only Christian "Christian" because he is the real deal: a sheep in sheep's clothing, as it were.”

Nicely done! I think Paul’s hit it there. Spot on. Only “Christian” is Christian--- and before he became “Christian,” he was graceless.

I would like to wonder a bit further... with a closer look at Faithful.


message 26: by David (new)

David  | 8 comments Then we get Christian's escape, without any indication of whether it's by rescue, miracle. or chance. It's a dreamlike jump-cut.

I think it is interesting you mentioned Game of Thrones in your post. I listened a lot to The Tolkien Professor podcast and he compared Tolkien to Martin. One difference he noted was Tolkien wrote myth, so he did not explain things exhaustively, he left a lot to the imagination. But modern novels, like Martin's, are filled with more detail. In this Bunyan's storytelling seems to be more like Tolkien's.

I suspect this may even explain what we see as plotholes - why didn't the eagles just fly the ring to mordor? Tolkien might respond, because that wouldn't make a good story? If I expect Bunyan to write an air-tight modern novel, he sort of fails, but as a dream/allegory/myth, I think he succeeds.


message 27: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli Adelle wrote: " what STOPPED him wasn't that he realized that that would be "wrong." What stopped him was "he [the old man] would sell me for a slave.""

I think you may be talking this a little too literally. He may be alluding to "everyone who sins is a slave of sin."


message 28: by Adelle (last edited Apr 26, 2015 08:36PM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 27 Mary wrote: I think you may be talking this a little too literally. He may be alluding to "everyone who sins is a slave of sin." ..."

Ah! I love that expansion. Thank you!


message 29: by Adelle (last edited Apr 27, 2015 11:17AM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments Mmmm. Thought before we move on to Week 3 I would struggle with Faithful once more. No spoilers… … I suppose this is me reading and writing between the lines to make some sense of Faithful. (view spoiler)


message 30: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Hilary wrote: "Ok, this is a comment that probably belongs in thread one, but I'm wondering whether we are to believe that should Christian wander from the way he cannot make his way to the Celestial City. If so..."

Hilary, you have hit upon the thing that bothered me about "Pilgrim's Progress" the first time I read it. There always has to be a place where allegory breaks down, and I feel the same about Calvinism. I believe the same way you do.


message 31: by Hilary (new)

Hilary (agapoyesoun) | 229 comments That is so heartening, Laurel. Thanks for letting me know. :-)


message 32: by Tk (new)

Tk | 51 comments Who are the "Aliens" referred to right at the beginning of this week's reading? "...and turned to flight the Armies of the Aliens."


message 33: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Laurel wrote: "Lily wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Talkative reminds me of a character in Jane Austen."

Which one(s), Laurel, if that doesn't put you on the spot, which is not my intent. Just curious, because an obviou..."


I instantly thought of Miss Bates.


message 34: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments David wrote: "Also with Apollyon, he taunts Christian about so many Christians who have been "shamefully put to death" while those who go with Apollyon are protected by his power. This clearly points to the tradition of martyrdom in the church and I suspect is personal to Bunyan, writing in prison."

Apollyon promising to protect Christian if he returned home brought to mind the Faust legend. Marlow's Dr. Faustus was written well before Bunyan's time, so he certainly could have known of the legend. Is it a possible connection?


message 35: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Roger wrote: "Christian seems to have grown a bit. He's not the lost wandering soul he was. He gives advice to Faithful, and then to Hopeful, and he's the first to recognize the perils on the path. I'm not sure where he got this wisdom."

From reading his roll? We never really know what's in it, do we? But he does read it quite a bit, and presumably it has good advice for him.


message 36: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Adelle wrote: " I see indictments against myself as I read this book. "Oh.... I do "x", too. Ah... I could and should do "y" better." It's a wonderful self-examination, I think. "

I am coming to realize why this book has been such a powerful influence over the centuries. I also have the experience of seeing aspects of myself in some of the characters, and having to confront whether they are aspects I am satisfied with or need to work on. I suspect that most of us reading it here are having to some degree or other the same experience.

I'm also, with somewhat more pleasure, finding other people I know in some of the characters -- oh, that's so much like _______!


message 37: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Tk wrote: "Who are the "Aliens" referred to right at the beginning of this week's reading? "...and turned to flight the Armies of the Aliens.""

Given the context, that they are talking about the things that the Ancient of Days (God) had done, from Heb 11:33-34, that this was his routing the armies the Jews faced as they moved into what was to become Israel.


message 38: by Nemo (last edited Apr 29, 2015 06:54PM) (new)

Nemo (nemoslibrary) | 2456 comments Hilary wrote: "Bunyan believed in the Calvinist perseverance of the saints as did many such as John Newton and Isaac Watts. Their difficulty appears to have been a lack of certainty.."

Bunyan, Calvin and other Christians around that period were all convinced of the eternal punishment of sinners. They wanted to be sure that they were saved, and consequently were tormented by the lack of certainty for a time.

Many Christians I know are not at all convinced of the eternal punishment of sinners, and don't worry themselves too much about the certainty of their own or other people's salvation, or if they do, they are not showing it.


message 39: by Tk (new)

Tk | 51 comments Everyman wrote: "Given the context, that they are talking about the t..."

Thank you.


message 40: by Nemo (new)

Nemo (nemoslibrary) | 2456 comments I find it interesting that Bunyan let Faithful die in Vanity Fair to introduce Hopeful into the story, as if he believed that "faith, hope and love" come in succession, not at the same time.


message 41: by Nemo (last edited May 01, 2015 08:23AM) (new)

Nemo (nemoslibrary) | 2456 comments Re: "Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious"

Laurel, Lily and Roger have used those words to describe some characters in PP (or even the book itself). When I read PP, those words never crossed my mind. (In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of anybody, whether real or fictional, that I would characterize as didactic or sanctimonious. Some people find Tolstoy's writings in his late years preachy, not I, but then it could be because I'm biased, being a fan.) Initially I thought that perhaps non-religious people would find religious writings preachy, but this is apparently not the case.

What is it about "didactic, pompous, sanctimonious" that make them objectionable?


message 42: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Nemo wrote: "Re: "Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious"

Laurel, Lily and Roger have used those words to describe some characters in PP (or even the book itself). When I read PP, those words never crossed my mind. ..."


I don't recall using those pejorative words, Nemo, unless it might have been in quoting someone. I think this is a very humble book—humble enough to make some people mock at it. Yes, it was written to teach those who would learn about the Christian life, but I do not see anything pompous or sanctimonious about it. So I agree with you.


message 43: by Paul (new)

Paul (paul_vitols) | 77 comments Adelle wrote: "Nicely done! I think Paul’s hit it there. Spot on. Only “Christian” is Christian--- and before he became “Christian,” he was graceless...."

Thank you, Adelle! I've gotten confused in these threads, and only just found your comment now.


message 44: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Nemo wrote: "I find it interesting that Bunyan let Faithful die in Vanity Fair to introduce Hopeful into the story, as if he believed that "faith, hope and love" come in succession, not at the same time."

Interesting thought.

But I was also surprised, and a bit concerned, that he let Faithful die and not reach Sion.


message 45: by Adelle (last edited Apr 29, 2015 05:31PM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments at 44, Everyman said, "
But I was also surprised, and a bit concerned, that he let Faithful die and not reach Sion. "


Yet.... Christian said, "I am leaving the City of Destruction to go to Mount Zion," (words to that effect)...

Wouldn't that imply that Mount Zion is his ultimate destination (Celestial City)? And that's where Faithful in fact went.

Or.... did I misread? misinterpret?


message 46: by Mary (new)

Mary Catelli Yeah, the death of Faithful is probably the place where the literal and allegorical stories are meshed together -- least happily.


message 47: by Nemo (new)

Nemo (nemoslibrary) | 2456 comments Laurel wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Re: "Didactic, pompous, sanctimonious"

Laurel, Lily and Roger have used those words to describe some characters in PP (or even the book itself). When I read PP, those words never cros..."


Laurel, I thought you were saying Mr. Talkative was didactic and sanctimonious. My apology if I misunderstood.


message 48: by Nemo (last edited Apr 29, 2015 08:34PM) (new)

Nemo (nemoslibrary) | 2456 comments Nemo wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I was also surprised, and a bit concerned, that he let Faithful die and not reach Sion. ..."

Faithful did reach Sion, just not on foot, but in the manner of Elijah.


message 49: by Adelle (last edited Apr 30, 2015 08:40AM) (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 35, Everyman wrote: "Roger wrote: "Christian seems to have grown a bit. He's not the lost wandering soul he was. He gives advice to Faithful, and then to Hopeful, and he's the first to recognize the perils on the pat...EVERYMAN: From reading his roll? We never really know what's in it, do we? But he does read it quite a bit, and presumably it has good advice for him."

I don't really think we see him read it, but he put it in his bosom--- which I took to mean he put it in his heart.


EDIT ADDED: I have found you to be right in this, Everyman. We don't "see" him reading it... but in re-reading that scene where it was given to him, the Shining One "gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bid him look on as he ran." Instructions, yes, Christian WOULD follow... even if we don't see him doing so.


message 50: by Adelle (new)

Adelle | 148 comments At 16 Roger wrote: "Then we get Christian's escape, without any indication of whether it's by rescue, miracle. or chance. It's a dreamlike jump-cut. Which, come to think of it, maybe isn't inappropriate.
"



The dream-like quality might explain it.

However, (view spoiler)


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