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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK 4 and 5 - ON POLITICS - CHAPTER TWO - Plato and Antipolitics - (March 30th, 2015 through April 19th, 2015) - No Spoilers, please
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, we are reading Chapter 2: Plato and Antipolitics - page 31.
The fourth and fifth week's segments reading assignment are:
WEEK FOUR AND WEEK FIVE: - March 30th, 2015 - April 19th, 2015 - Chapter 2: Plato and Antipolitics - page 31
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter 2: Plato and Antipolitics - page 31
These weeks will be discussing Plato and Antipolitics.
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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There's a lot to chew on in this chapter, but a couple of quotes that really got my attention were"Those who dislike Plato complain that almost his first move is to expel all poets and artists from his polis...he thought most art was a form of attractive lying." (p. 59)
I'm inclined to think that art is generally now seen as enlightening rather than deluding, but I suppose the argument is reason over passion?
"Democratic citizens are half-crazy with a passion for novelties, never making up their minds what to do, and never sticking with a decision" (p. 69).
Notwithstanding that I find this quote creepily authoritarian, it does make me think of governments looking no further than the next election in their planning as it's critical to maintain public support. Longer term objectives are difficult to manage.
A quote that really struck me was from page 63 (Kindle version):"The virtue appropriate to the workers is temperance;The virtue appropriate to the auxiliaries is courage; they are the heart of the society, and must be brave hearts. The virtue appropriate to the guardians is wisdom; they are the society’s mind, and the virtue of the mind is wisdom."
Plato believes this to be the natural order of things, and once everyone is in their place there will be no conflict, there will be justice.
I agree with Jim, in that Plato does seem authoritarian. My problem with the Philosopher-King concept (or Guardians) is that very well educated people don't always do the "right" thing, or have common sense enough to make good decisions.
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I have to agree with you about the quote about art.
However the second quote is eerily correct even though the quote of Plato's was made 2400 years ago.
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You are right that folks are not always altruistic or visionary.
Bentley wrote: "Another interesting quote Karen thank you. You are right that folks are not always altruistic or visionary."
The notion that there are good and bad forms of rule by one person, an elite, or all citizens is interesting. The challenge seems to be to keep decision makers focused on the common good rather than raiding the cookie jar to benefit themselves. I suppose an advantage of democracy is that you can "throw the bums out" by non-violent means when their ideals start to wear off and self-interest starts dominating their motives.
Jim wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Another interesting quote Karen thank you. You are right that folks are not always altruistic or visionary."
The notion that there are good and bad forms of rule by one person, a..."
"Throwing the bums out" is an interesting idea. I had a friend that lived in Chicago a decade or more ago.
They had their usual snow amounts one year, but apparently the city didn't seem to care, and did a poor job of keeping the roads clear. The people were so upset that they voted those in office out of office and voted in the candidates that promised to do a better job.
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Yes. It made me realize that people can work together to bring about change.
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https://www.goodreads.com/videos/8990...
Source: Youtube
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Juan Downey (1940-1993) was a Chilean artist whose innovations in video, sculpture and interactive performance encouraged reflection on perception and the self. Drawing together advances in technology with an interest in the rituals of his native Latin America, Downey asks big questions about society, history, information and the environment. In this video, his groundbreaking 1973 performance Plato Now is restaged and invites the audience members to consider their role in the piece.
Thought you might enjoy an artist's take on Plato.
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanitie...
Source: Khan Academy
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In which John compares and contrasts Greek civilization and the Persian Empire. Of course we're glad that Greek civilization spawned modern western civilization, right? Maybe not. From Socrates and Plato to Darius and Xerxes, John explains two of the great powers of the ancient world, all WITHOUT the use of footage from 300.
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanitie...
Source: Khan Academy
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Raphael, School of Athens, fresco, 1509-1511 (Stanza della Segnatura, Papal Palace, Vatican) Speakers: Dr. Steven Zucker, Dr. Beth Harris
Learning Video: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanitie...
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"There is some irony here since Augustine's position echos, to some extent, the writing of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato. In book X of The Republic (c. 360 B.C.E.), Plato describes a true thing as having been made by God, while in the earthly sphere, a carpenter, for example, can only build a replica of this truth (Plato uses a bed to illustrate his point). Plato states that a painter who renders the carpenter's bed creates an illusion that is two steps from the truth of God."
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanitie...
Source for all of the above in this post: Khan Academy
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Socrates - Born in Athens around 469 BCE, Socrates lived during the period of the city's greatest cultural expansion. Son of a midwife and sculptor, he was acquainted with the intellectual elite at the court of Pericles, ruler of Athens, despite his plebian origins. As a young man, Socrates studied philosophy, establishing a familiarity with the work of earlier Greek philosophers. Heraclitus and Parmenides are thought to have been particularly influential in his education. During the Peloponnesian War, he fought in several battles and received commendation for his actions.
By 423 BCE, Socrates was well-known in Athens, not so much for military distinction as for his non-traditional teaching methods. He did not keep a formal school, nor did he charge for his services. He was a popular guest at social gatherings, and could often be seen arguing against illogical reasoning and prejudice wherever people congregated. Socrates did not sympathize with the ascetics -- he believed in enjoying life. He found fault with the Sophists, contemporary teachers who were willing to argue either side of any controversy and with whom he was often wrongly associated. Socrates believed that truth, beauty, and justice have objective content, and that we are born with an innate understanding of their existence. He taught his students to use their rational understanding to rediscover knowledge they already had. He also believed that a moral life brought men happiness, and that this morality was something that could be transmitted through education. He himself was fond of claiming that he knew nothing, which was his way of stating that he had no fixed doctrine. Socrates alleged ignorance was called by the Greeks eironeia, Socratic irony.
His willingness to criticize arguments that he found unsound, regardless of subject, challenged and threatened some prominent Athenians. Socrates made powerful political enemies when he spoke against Athens' new democratic governmental system, which he considered ineffectual and corrupt.
During this time, the Peloponnesian War dragged on, and the city of Athens suffered plague, treason, and finally total defeat. Socrates and his outspoken opinions became increasingly aggravating to the ruling elite. It was thought that his influence over the youth of Athens was dangerous, particularly his association with Critias, a former student and a powerful figure in the Rule of Thirty, a tyrannic government that came to power in Athens after the period of political flux in the aftermath of the Peloponnesian War.
While some of the members of this oligarchy had indeed been followers of Socrates, Socrates remained an outspoken critic of the new government. When the Democrats regained power, however, Socrates' association with the oligarchy, particularly with Critias and Alcibiades, gave his enemies reason to bring him to trial. He was charged with corrupting the youth of Athens and with impiety. Despite his eloquent defense, Socrates was found guilty and sentenced to death. Plato records Socrates's last month of life in jail in the Apology, the Phaedo, and the Crito. Socrates remained staunchly true to his beliefs, refused to recant any of his statements, and also refused to accept exile over death. He took a cup of hemlock surrounded by his friends, and, comforting them, drank the poison that would end his life.
Socrates is considered to be among the most influential Western philosophers. Although he never wrote a word himself, the many works of his student, Plato, provides a window into Socratic philosophy. His major contribution to the study of philosophy was to redirect inquiries away from the natural sciences and toward the contemplation of systems of ethics and questions of ethical conduct.
Plato (c. 427-347 BCE)
Plato - Plato was Socrates' student and one of the most influential philosophers in Western civilization. Born to a politically active and wealthy noble Athenian family, (Plato's mother was descended from Solon, the famous lawgiver credited with major democratic reforms that paved the way for Athen's Golden Age).
Plato grew up during the Peloponnesian War (431-404 BCE), a conflict that arose among Athens, Sparta, and their allies. This civil war was the beginning of the end of the Athenian Golden Age, and created an opening for later conquest by Philip of Macedon. The principles of democracy in Athens were lost, as was much of the cultural wealth of both city states.
During this general shift away from democracy, Plato was a young man, and probably served in the military around 409-404 BCE. The Rule of the Thirty, a period of tyrannical government, replaced the last vestiges of democracy before Plato reached adulthood. Though Sparta emerged victorious in battle, the balance of power between the two city states remained uncertain, with neither state gaining a clear economic or political advantage.
His relatives Critias and Charmides introduced Plato to Socrates and his radical and vibrant philosophical group. Socrates became Plato's teacher from 469-399 BCE. Plato was deeply influenced by Socrates' emphasis on ethics and politics, and would later commemorate Socrates as the wise and central speaker in his philosophical writings.
When Athens lost the Peloponnesian War, Critias and Charmides, the same relatives who had established Plato in Athens, became part of the despotic Rule of Thirty, also known as the Thirty Tyrants. When the government of the Rule of Thirty crumbled in 403 BCE, Critias and Charmides were executed.
Socrates was then put to death in 399 BCE, not by the Rule of Thirty, but by the newly reinstated and corrupt Athenian democratic system. Plato gave up all political aspirations after this tragedy, and pursued instead a career of travel and philosophy.
He travelled to the Greek city of Syracuse in Sicily around 387 BCE, ruled by the despotic Dionysius, where he tutored and befriended Dion, a relative of the king. During his journeying in Italy - Plato encountered followers of Pythagoras, an early philosopher whose views on the soul and the afterlife seem to have greatly influenced Plato.
Plato would also have been intrigued by tales of a Pythagorean class of philosopher-elites who had ruled over some of the Greek cities in Italy, an idea that would resurface in his Republic . Plato's visit to Syracuse, however, ended abruptly -- one legend suggests that Dionysius was annoyed by Plato's critical comments and tried to sell him as a slave -- and Plato came back to Athens in 386 BCE to found his school in a place dedicated to Academus, a mythical hero. The Academy among the first organized institutions of higher education in the Western world.
He remained at the Academy for the next twenty years until drawn away from his work there in 367 BCE by a request from Dion, his old friend from Syracuse, to return to Sicily. Plato probably made the voyage with the expectation that he could be instrumental in forming a new state in Syracuse, one dedicated to philosophical ideals. In 361 BCE, however, he returned to Athens, feeling that Sicily's problems were too great for one man to overcome. His return to Athens was marked by the arrival of a brilliant student to the Academy named Aristotle, whom Plato taught for the next twenty years until his death in 347 BCE, according to legend, with his pen still in his hand.
Plato composed over twenty dialogues, (the dialogue itself was then a revolutionary prose form) as well as a series of philosophical letters. Although most of the letters are thought to be forged, the "Seventh Letter" contains information about Plato's life that most scholars believe to be accurate. Almost all of Plato's works were lost during the Middle Ages, except for the first third of the Timaeus.
His writings were not recovered until the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, when Italian humanists gradually rediscovered and translated his works into Latin. From this point forward, Plato's texts, and his magnum opus The Republic , in particular, have had an impact on European history second only to the works of Aristotle.
Particularly influential was his theory of Forms, in which Plato suggested that the reality of corporeal and materials things is based on a metaphysical reality of ideas that exists in an eternal world of Forms. Plato's idea of a an absolute Form of the Good was close to the Christian monotheistic God; Neoplatonism in the Christianizing Roman Empire (100-400 CE) revived Plato as an early precursor of Christian doctrine.
Source for all of the above: http://www.watson.org/~leigh/philo.html
For on line books in English and other resources - http://classics.williams.edu/resource...
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Yale Course: The Peloponnesian War - the beginning of Part One:
#17 - This is the first part of the Yale Course dedicated to the Peloponnesian War. I will add the links to the other parts here on this thread:
Introduction to Ancient Greek History (CLCV 205)
In this lecture, Professor Kagan describes the events that lead up the Peloponnesian War. He argues that the rise of Athenian power and the concomitant challenge to Spartan dominance pointed to potential conflict. However, Professor Kagan also points out that there were many people who did not want war and that therefore war was not inevitable. The Thirty Years Peace was negotiated, and Professor Kagan finally argues that its clause for arbitration was the key clause that could have prevented war.
00:00 - Chapter 1. The Importance of the Peloponnesian War and Its Continuing Value
09:25 - Chapter 2. The Origins of the War
23:37 - Chapter 3. Athens Faces a Critical Decision
30:31 - Chapter 4. Multiple Battles
45:16 - Chapter 5. Reversal of Fortune
56:17 - Chapter 6. The Four Months Truce and Subsequent Thirty Years Peace
Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses
Here is the link: https://youtu.be/nMlkvfFJYPo
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Yale Course: The Peloponnesian War -Part One continued:
Introduction to Ancient Greek History (CLCV 205)
18. The Peloponnesian War, Part I (cont.)
In this lecture, Professor Kagan describes the aftermath of the Thirty Years Peace. He argues that the Peace had the potential to keep peace between Athens and Sparta due to the arbitration clause. In addition, he argues that during this time, Athens sends various diplomatic messages to the wider Greek world stating their intentions for peace, such as the Panhellenic venture to establish Thurii. However, this peace is seriously challenged when Corinth and Corcyra come into conflict over Epidamnus. At this point, Athens could make an alliance with Corcyra and run the risk of angering Sparta or allow Corinth to potentially take over Corcyra's navy and change the naval balance of power. Athens decides on a defensive alliance.
00:00 - Chapter 1. Preserving the Thirty Years Peace
10:12 - Chapter 2. The Pan-hellenic Colony of Thurii
22:05 - Chapter 3. Testing the Peace
38:30 - Chapter 4. Civil War at Epidamnus and the Question of Honor
01:12:18 - Chapter 5. Athens Votes on a Defensive Alliance
Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/W7xOLKKcm2s
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Yale Course: The Peloponnesian War -Part Two:
Introduction to Ancient Greek History (CLCV 205)
19. The Peloponnesian War, Part II
In this lecture, Professor Kagan focuses on the causes of the Peloponnesian War and the possible motivations for Thucydides' book, The History of the Peloponnesian War. Concerning the first point, Professor Kagan parts ways with Thucydides and argues that the war was not inevitable and that the Athenians under Pericles followed a policy of deterrence, which was aimed at peace. Similarly, he points out that there were a number of Spartans who did not want war as well. Therefore, according to this line of reasoning, war broke out due to a number of factors that were avoidable. Concerning the second point, Professor Kagan argues that Thucydides was a revisionist historian. In other words, Thucydides was writing not as a disinterested historian, but as a historian with a point to make, namely, that the war was inevitable and that Athens was only a democracy in name under Pericles. Finally, Professor Kagan acknowledges that his two points are debatable.
00:00 - Chapter 1. Lead Up to the War: Corcyra and Potidaea
12:17 - Chapter 2. Lead Up to the War: The Megarian Decree
20:08 - Chapter 3. The Spartan Assembly Votes and the Course of War Is Set
36:33 - Chapter 4. The Start of the War
50:02 - Chapter 5. Thucydides as Revisionist Historian
Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/c5NcR-fU3QM
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Yale Course: The Peloponnesian War -Part Two:
Introduction to Ancient Greek History (CLCV 205)
20. The Peloponnesian War, Part II
Introduction to Ancient Greek History (CLCV 205)
In this lecture, Professor Kagan examines Pericles as a general. First, he describes Pericles' strategy of war and then he evaluates this strategy. According to Professor Kagan, Pericles' strategy was characterized by being both defensive and rational. It was defensive, because the Athenians did not engage the Spartans in a traditional hoplite battle, and it was rational, because Pericles assumed that the Spartans would cease fighting when they realized that the Athenians did not have to fight a land battle, since they had a walled city and a navy. On its surface, this strategy seems reasonable, but Professor Kagan points out that there were two flaws. First, the Athenians did not have an offensive plan: that is, a plan to deter the Spartans from quitting the war. Second, Pericles failed to realize that war is not always rational.
00:00 - Chapter 1. Pericles and His Strategy
16:27 - Chapter 2. Modern Scholars' Views on Pericles
26:04 - Chapter 3. Criticism of Pericles as a Military Leader
40:54 - Chapter 4. Pericles' Other Obstacles
53:47 - Chapter 5. Question and Answer
Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/jjunpZz2EhU
Welcome to our relaxed discussion and read of Alan Ryan's book - On Politics: A History of Political Thought from Herodotus to the Present.
For the weeks of March 30th, 2015 through April 19th, 2015, we are reading the Chapter 2: Plato and Antipolitics - On Politics: A History of Political Thought from Herodotus to the Present by Alan Ryan.
The fourth and fifth week's reading assignment is:
WEEK FOUR AND WEEK FIVE: - March 30th, 2015 - April 19th, 2015
Chapter 2: Plato and Antipolitics - page 31
We will open up a thread for each bi-monthly assignment.. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on March 16th
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators in Training Teri and Jose.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
Here is the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...