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Ulysses by Joyce - Jan 2010 Read-A-Long
Thanks, Carol....that's the page I wanted to link to.
I am starting tonight! I'm excited and intimidated at the same time. :o)
Getting ready to really buckle down with this book. I have my dictionary, my Joyce web site and another group discussion right here with me. So let's get down to serious reading. Let the game begin. See you all on the other side of Dublin, and half way in between.
Got through the first 23 pages last night and had the same WTF feeling I had when I started Gravity's Rainbow. Not necessarily a bad thing since I finally got into GR and really enjoyed it.
Dan wrote: "Got through the first 23 pages last night and had the same WTF feeling I had when I started Gravity's Rainbow. Not necessarily a bad thing since I finally got into GR and really enjoyed it."WTF is right. I started this behemoth in 2009. I am determined to finish it in 2010.
Keep going some parts are way better than others. I am at the Siren part, it is turning out to be interesting.
The first episode was a definite WTF for me, too. It's very bizarre.Episode 8.....I totally got it....and rather enjoyed it.
Background: I go for walks throughout the neighbourhood quite often and, because of the regularity of the walks, notice the changes in trees, flowers, home repairs being done, level of water in the river, etc. I recognize many of the people I meet and we nod & exchange greetings. Also, while walking, my thoughts wander from one topic to another in a connected chain.
This is what that chapter is all about. Bloom wanders through town, noticing small things, meets people, has lunch, chats, walks some more and, while alone, has chains of connected thoughts running through his head (stream of consciousness writing).
I could relate to the walking experience.
Episode 9 seems to be a Book Club discussion. That's great if one is part of the Book Club; not so great as a spectator.
I think, that this is what makes Ulysses so hard to read. It's very personal. It's the thoughts in one's head while walking (or another solitary activity) and the group dynamics of a small group. The Reader is sort of on the outskirts and, although being told in minute detail all that is happening and thought about, isn't a part of the group per se. As an outsider, the happenings aren't as interesting as if one were a true part of the group.
It's also happening over a short period of time and, therefore, nothing much seems to happen (just like in ordinary, everyday Life).
I can see that there are multitude of levels in this book and that a Scholar could spend a lifetime studying this book. I'm not one of those but I can see that it's possible to spend that much time on this book.
I also feel sorry for Bloom and his wife. The wedge of grief between them caused by their son's death is so sad.
Grief can do that. You tend to re-evaluate your life and the people in it. Sometimes you just don't want to invest anymore time and emotions in a relationship. Do you think Mr. Bloom is transferring his affections to Stephan Dedalus? I think Mr. Bloom is so sad he looks to Stephan as a second son. I don't know if these emotions are returned in kind. Petra you stated it so well. This is why this book makes a profound statement. Every time you read it you find yourself discovering new meaning .
I find I am drawn to the more cohesive parts of the book, but I think the definitive is the rambling solitary activities. They tease you and it stretches my thinking process to remember all the books, plays and poetry he utilizes .
Carol, I haven't made the connection between Bloom and Stephen yet. I haven't reached that place yet, I think. I may have missed it but I don't think they've actually met face-to-face yet. I'll keep this point of view in mind as I continue reading and let you know what I think.
Yes, this is definitely a book for the well-read. The more a Reader has encountered the references in this book, the more she/he will get out of it. So far, the connection to The Odyssey has alluded me. I'll believe that it's there but it's been so long since I've read The Odyssey that I don't remember the minute details enough to make these obtuse connections.
Do you know whether the poetry is actual poetry or was it written by Joyce for this book?
I think some of the poetry is actual but most is his own. He had such a command of world literature, one can't be sure. I am sure others would be better qualified to answer you.Odyssey traversed the known world for a long time ,before he finally found his way home. I think Mr. Bloom is traversing his known world in the span of one day,in which he lives a lifetime.
Does anyone else feel like reading this is like reading in a foreign language? Every time I pick this up, I'm reminded really strongly of when I had just started my semester abroad in Japan. I didn't know enough Japanese to really understand the things that were going on around me, but I did know enough to get a basic gist most of the time. Since TV was often completely beyond me, I did a lot of my Japanese learning by reading manga (Japanese comics). Even though manga are certainly simpler to read than novels, there was still so much that I didn't understand at first. I would look up all the words in a dictionary, but by the time I got to the end of a sentence, I would have forgotten what the first word I had looked up meant. Ulysses has so many allusions to history and literature that even when I look them up, I forget the specifics by the time I hit the end of a thought. (For the record, I actually love learning languages, this is more of a compliment than it may seem.) It does make me think that Ulysses may make a ton more sense on a second reading than on a first, though.I just finished reading Episode 3, which has been the most difficult part for me so far, mostly because it delves so deeply into Stephen's thoughts. I know some people have been saying that they are doing this by skimming over the things that they don't understand, but I haven't been able to convince myself to do that. It drives me nuts not to understand things, so Google has been seeing me a lot. I've also been using the Google books free preview of Ulysses Annotated, which explains a lot of the references that I don't get. I do think it helped me get the basic meaning in this episode, but it also at least doubles my reading time. I do hope that the next episode proves to be more similar to the first and second episodes than the third. My brain feels like it has melted from all this effort. ;)
Just out of curiosity, what everyone else's method of reading this? I know a lot of people have said that they'll be taking it in bits and pieces, and some have said they're reading it like poetry rather than prose, but I'm really curious as to the specifics of that all. As for me, I'm trying to do an episode at a time, with no stopping in the middle of an episode. Like I've already said, I do my best to look up all the references and words I don't understand. Then, when I finish the episode, I write a little summary of what happened during the episode, partially for my own reference as I get further into the book, and partially as an exercise in sorting out my thoughts. If you're having trouble keeping things straight, I actually recommend this method. It forces you to really think about what you've read and put into a coherent order.
Tani that is an excellent way to read this book. You like to have a thorough feel for the passages you are reading. I do read small snippets at a time. At this stage of my life I find this book tedious. I have read it before when younger and I found it hilarious. Now not so much. I no longer find his thought process important enough to care about the character. It is a unique excursion into literature.
Tani, Ulysses Annotated is wonderful. Unfortunately, the middle sections are missing. Hrumph......This book would be a tremendous help throughout Ulysses. I'm starting "The Wandering Rocks" next and that chapter seems to be partially covered in the Annotated. I'll use it and see if it helps with understanding.
I'm reading a complete Episode, then checking Wikipedia on that episode and comparing my understanding with Wikipedia's, then sometimes going back and rereading sections. I'm trying not to scan it but some of the stream of consciousness writing (third episode) is tedious and I have skimmed a paragraph or so when I've gottent the idea of what was being said.
The Annotated would make a great cross-reference in conjunction with Wikipedia. I like the maps of Dublin that they show at the beginning of each Episode's section. That puts into perspective the area being covered in that episode.
I don't know if I'd ever read it a second time but I do agree that the book would make more sense the second time around.
Carol, hilarious???!!!! LOL! It's hard to picture this book in a hilarious way.
I was young, what can I say. The freshness of youth. Now I am just as jaded as Mr. Joyce.(sigh)
Ok, I've realized this will need to be the book I pick up at night when everything is done and the kids are in bed so I won't have any distractions. I picked it up here and there over the weekend, but didn't even get through the first episode. I only made it to page 17. :/
Petra, I hit the end of the preview of Ulysses Annotated today, a very sad event. Thankfully, Leopold's perspective was much easier to follow than Stephen's, so it wasn't a huge problem. Still, I'm sad that I know I'll be missing out on things without it. Now I'm using the Ulysses study guide on Gradesaver, which gives a pretty thorough overview of each chapter, and Allusions in Ulysses, which is another Google books preview, although nowhere near as thorough as Ulysses Annotated. I'll have to check out Wikipedia too. I'm really having a lot of fun being obsessively thorough. :)Anyway, I read Episode 4 this morning. Like I mentioned above, Leopold's perspective was a lot easier to get through, but I actually found myself wishing for Stephen back. I'm kind of vaguely amused at Stephen's oh-so-poetic angst, whereas Leopold's pathetic doormat act just makes me sad.
He gets worse does Mr. Leopold. I don't find him endearing just infuriating.
I am in the middle of episode 15. Not to my liking. My favorite so far is Episode 13, Nausicaä. You get to know Bloom's weaknesses .
Phew.....just finished Episode 11. That one was tough going. I'm sure I missed way more than I got (on a literary, deep level). Basically Bloom is in a noisy pub having a bite to eat and a karaoke type of situation is occurring? Lots of singing, overheard conversations (snippets of, anyways). Feel free to correct me at any time. :-) Carol, I'm looking forward to Episode 13 and getting to know Bloom better.
I think I'll take a break until tomorrow before starting Episode 12, though.
I have taken a break also, gearing up for number 18. The longest and the most winded episode of the book. You think Faulkner was bad, wait till you get a load of Joyce in that one. Talk about a soliloquy.
I felt as if I hadn't really "gotten" Episode 11 so I googled around looking for help and found this site:http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives...
It's incredible. She's witty and has a way with words....and she understands Ulysses.......and she shows how Ulysses is tied to The Odyssey. It's an amazing comparison. Joyce must have been a very smart individual.
I've linked to the last page (Episode 18) but from there each Episode can be linked to. I've gone back to read her synopsis/analysis of the Episodes I've read. It's very helpful.
I love it.Her summary is a great help. The culmination and the tie in of the whole novel. It is a book on it's own.We can really have some good discussions about the last episode.. Do you think it is the most powerful episode of the whole book. Or which episode do you feel is the most powerful?
I have to ponder this myself.
I haven't read beyond Episode 11....not the book or the analysis. I don't want to spoil it for myself (weird as that sounds with this book). So far, for myself and personal reasons, I've enjoyed Episode 8 the best, for the reasons stated above (message 112). I "clicked" with that episode due to "real life". Therefore, I think the more one identifies with the characters and life in general, the more one appreciates the nuances of this book. It goes well beyond "the story" and right into "the mind/psyche".
I also think that this book would take on more meaning (and different meanings) with each reading. With this first reading, I'm finding myself paying more attention to the style, deciphering the text and making sense of the story. Once those aspects are in place, a second/third/etc reading would let me just "go with the flow", so to speak.
Too many years have past since I last read it. I am finding it hard to concentrate, I do find I don't find it as funny as I did the first time. It is more a tragic-comedy this time around.
Wow, I really need to get in gear with this! I only started Episode 2 last night. I love the discussion already though, it makes me want to keep going. I love the idea of reading an episode, then reading the online synopsis.
It really helps to read a synopsis, but it is fun to see how much you understand without it. I think that is part of the game, he wants you to interact with him. After all these years you feel as if you are carrying on a conversation with him. He teases us mentally with his word play.As you can read, Joyce used many writing styles. The man had an exhilarating, knowledgeable, erotic and down right psychological writing style. The man was a literary genius.
Hello, I'm a newbie. My name is Dennis Dalman, although I sometimes go by my nickname, Denny Duck (long story) so that's the name I'll use in this group. I need to know how to join the Ulysses read-along. As a newcomer, this site is as confusing as when I first tried to read Ulysses, in ancient times. I've since read it five times and want to read it again. To all of you in the club trembling with trepidation about trying to tackle Ulysses, here is my advice. Get Cliff's notes or a book entitled "Rejoyce" by Anthony Burgess. They are perfect guides to the big book. Another is "James Joyce's Ulysses" by Stuart Gilbert. And if your REALLY want to explore the endless cosmos of minutiae in Ulysses, get "Ulysses Annotated" by Don Gifford. It explains all of the streets, pubs, references, homages, arcana and virtually everything, page by page, in the Dublin universe Joyce so craftily created. And not to forget while you're negotiating the hurdles of Ulysses, it is -- in large part -- a very, very funny book!
Welcome, Denny! You've already joined the Read Along by commenting here in this thread. Start re-reading the book and feel free to comment at any time. We love to hear all thoughts and perspectives. I'm finding this book very interesting for different reasons than I would have thought before beginning it. I'm drawn into the styles of the writing and how Joyce manages to use them as a means of adding dimension to the story.
So far, in this first reading, I don't find it a funny book but believe that it is one (as it's been mentioned before as humerous). Somehow I'm missing that aspect. Bummer!
However, I'm sure that this will be a re-read for me one day and, with the added understanding I get from this reading and this discussion, I hope to see the humour next time.
Petra I am not finding it funny now. Many years ago I found it hilarious, now I find it sad. I find Mr. Bloom ans his Penelope(Molly) depressing .
Hi Petra,Thanks for the warm welcome. OK, yes, I'll post some thoughts on Ulysses as I re-read it. Ulysses is like the Rock of Gibralter of 20th Century literature, rightly so. However, it's not beyond criticism, and one of my major beefs is that at times, while reading that book, I felt Joyce went a bit overboard on trying to squeeze a "Homeric parallel" into every nook and cranny. Many times it works. Other times, not. What you new-to-Ulysses readers will be amazed by are all of Joyce's hi-jinks and varying styles throughout the book. The "Wandering Rocks" episode,for instance, is amazing in how he orchestrates all these people walking in Dublin streets, crossing one another's paths, sometimes unaware of each other. Another thing to keep in mind when reading the book is Joyce is fond of using the "delay" technique. A detail you might think is random or arbitary comes to have key importance later in the book. Which makes the book so much fun because you have to become nearly a detective while reading it. Another tip: remember Leopold Bloom is subconsciously seeking a "son," and Stephen, riddled by guilt, is seeking solace in a "father" other than his own. Also remember Bloom is an ad salesman, and a lot of the humor comes from the somersaults in his mind as the Dublin world around him keeps suggesting possible ad slogans to him. There's a clever, funny scene when Bloom is thinking aloud and interwoven in the text are strange combinations of letters such as "phhptt" and others. That is Joyce's way of expressing the progress, the sounds, of intestinal gas as it works its way down and finally out of Bloom,ending in a rather trimphant fart. Throughout the book, Joyce is an acrobat of language, at times stretching it to the breaking point. Let me warn you about the long section toward the end when Stephen and medical students are gabbing as they wait for Mina Purefoy to give birth. Joyce ingeniously writes that section in a whole range of prose styles that mimic the history of the English language, from old to modern. Thus, in that section, we see language "being born" as the baby is being born. In genius, right? Yes, in theory. But, at least to me, it just doesn't work. It's unreadable. But never mind. Wait until you get to Molly Bloom's last section, the 50-page unpuntuated monologue. It's a real dazzler, and it will be much richer if you pay attention to the cascades of details in the book that are so carefully interwoven into that vivid Molly section. Interwoven, come to think of is an unconscious pun from my mind because Molly is the Homeric Dublin "Penelope," who spends her time weaving to fend off suitors. Joyce is famous for puns. And now, with my mind back in that book, I'll be making unconscious, subconscious manifestations for weeks! My friends and loved ones, who are not keen readers, will avoid me like the plague. There he goes, they'll say, he's in his Joyce mode again! Joyce can do that; he can invade your head.
Denny Duck
Ah Denny thanks for the enlightenment .You are a gem .
Hmmm....I'm now looking forward to Mina Purefoy's Episode. I'll be prepared for "unreadable" but also prepared for the "birth of language" progression. I'm starting Episode 11 this afternoon with a cup of tea.
Hi and welcome, Denny! Thanks for the tips on the guides, I'm in need of a good one!
Mina Purefoy don't you just love the name? Kind of like the octomom except she didn't have multiple births but Mina had many single births.
Good for Bloom! I don't know who "Citizen" is but he's a bit of a wind-bag. I'm glad Bloom stood up to him. The start of Episode 12 threw me for a bit of a loop because of the change of Narrator. I wasn't expecting that and had to get my bearings again.There sure was a lot of talk about sports in this episode.
I enjoyed some of the names: Bacibaci Beninobenone (that one just rolls over the tongue), Blumenduft (blumen=flowers; duft=scent), Pokethankerscheff, Hokopoko, Ueberallgemein ("overly common"), to name a few.
I also enjoyed the listing of names in the wedding of Mr. Jean Wyse de Neaulan, Grand High Chief
Ranger of the Irish National Foresters and Miss Fir Conifer of Pine Valley, who spent their honeymoon in the Black Forest.
My favorite section, without a doubt, is Molly's ending monologue. There's nothing as good as that in all of literature, if you ask me. It's also brilliant because it's a wonderful summation of what happened before in the book.If you read a good bio of Joyce, many things in the book will make more sense. There are lots of fun facts about Joyce. He always carried his ashplant (cane) because he was terrified of dogs. He was also scared to death of thunder. His wife, Nora Barnacle, also Irish, was a kind of ordinary hausfrau. One day, she asked her dear "Jimmy" if there were any books of Irish humor in the house. There was Ulysses perched like a leprechaun on the bookshelf. For some time, the great fellow Irishman Samuel Beckett, then unknown, was a part-time secretary for Joyce and would take down parts of Finnegan's Wake as Joyce, almost totally blind by then, dictated. Joyce's daughter, Lucia, who suffered from schizophrenia, had a crush on Beckett. That poor girl suffered terribly, causing Joyce and Nora constant heartbreak. Some of the sadness about poor dead Rudy in Ulysses stems, I would guess, from that anguish.
Joyce died of a ruptured ulcer. He was taken to the hosptial while writhing in agony. Nora had him buried in Zurich, where they had lived while most of Ulysses was composed. She buried him there, next to the zoo, "so Jimmy could hear the lions roar."
The definitive biography -- well,at least it was difinitive 30 years ago, is James Joyce by Richard Ellman. Joyce once called Ireland "the sow's underbelly of Europe." He could be a real nitpickety sourpuss at times.
One of the great meetings in lit history occurred at a Paris hotel lunchroom in (I believe the early 1920s) when the following happend to be sitting at the large table: Joyce, Proust, Picasso, Stravinsky and -- if memory serves me well -- Nijinsky and Diaghilev. Apparently, nothinig earthshaking was discussed. Someone there said later that Proust had asked Joyce if he liked truffles (yes), and Joyce asked Proust his favorite Dickens book. (Bleak House and Joyce concurred). Ellman's bio is filled with such fun nuggets. I highly recommend it.
By the way, have any of you read The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas by Gertrude Stein? It's a fun-filled tour de force and would be a perfect discussion book for the group after the heavy-duty Ulysses experience.
I will definitely add that bio to my list to read. It sounds interesting. I know Joyce was still editing Ulysses when he died. I am saving the last episode to read later. I want to savor it. Right now I am reading a book that is worse than Ulysses. There is nothing fun about it.
Do you think that an author is obligated in any way to meet his reader half-way? I mean that in the sense that if a book is overly (?) scholastic that the author tone it down a bit. Not dumb the book down to the commonest denominator but enough so that a person with reasonable knowledge can follow the author's work? I'm finding that Ulysses isn't very readable, understandable, enjoyable without a reading guide and analysis of another person. I don't consider myself to be "under" educated, I'm well-read, I've even read The Odyssey twice......and still I'm missing lots when reading Ulysses and without the clarifying notes of The Sheila Variations and Gradesaver I don't know if I'd continue. It's not that I'm not enjoying the book (to a point) but that without enough understanding a reader loses interest.
Therefore, do you think that an author should keep his audience in mind? (again, I don't mean that the author should dumb down his book for the masses)
I guess another way to phrase the thought is: who do you think Joyce directed Ulysses to? In a mass-market, how many people would buy and read the book? Who did he think would read it and understand it? Were readers of his time so much better informed and educated than we are?
I should add that I usually think that the reader should stretch to the level that the author is writing at.....that the responsibility to understand lies with the reader.....but, for the first time, I wonder whether the author also has a titch or a smidgeon of responsibility also.
These are just thoughts that pass through my head while reading this book. Just wondering whether anyone else has had thoughts somewhat like mine?
I was so glad to get to Episode 12 (the episode on the beach) because I could understand the words and sentence structure and follow the story with complete understanding. It was like a wonderful rest and a breathing space.......like taking a "walk break" when jogging......you're still moving but it doesn't hurt so much.
PS: that Bio sounds really interesting.
Carol, I'm interested.....what book are you reading that's worse than Ulysses?
2666, it does not have the humor.Too much angst for me. I like what you said about taking a walk break.or a breathing space. You remember this is about one day and a journey around Dublin. When you sight see, you walk and look at the sites and enjoy the stroll.
This is definitely not a book to read alone. It is so much more fun to read together. I don't think he wanted us ,as readers to be solitary in reading this. We are to make conversation and dialogue and break it down to chewable morsels. I do want to read the bio. That might help us understand even more about what made him tick.
I think Joyce had respect for his readers. He edited this book so many times and he did not churn this book out as so many authors do. His mind was just so full stories. In fact he did his job, he made us go outside of the book and research subjects for ourselves. I think he would have been a great teacher and some one fun to know.
Oh, dear.....I have that one on my bookshelf at home, too. "This is definitely not a book to read alone. It is so much more fun to read together. I don't think he wanted us ,as readers to be solitary in reading this."
As an author, who won't know who reads his books, how could he pre-determine this? In general, most people read books alone. It's a solitary hobby. Did they have Book Clubs in those days?
I'm just curious and am not disgruntled in any way about this book (just in case it's coming across like that).
If I were going to write a book, I'd have a story to tell and I'd want a readership who will buy and read my book. This book is a work of genius, perhaps, but it's so difficult to read that the readership must have been limited even in Joyce's days.
Also, we're using guides and analyses' to help us along. The first readers of this book didn't have that to fall back on. How on earth did they figure it out? LOL! Who made the initial comparison to The Odyssey?
Regarding Episode 14 (the birth of Mrs. Purefoy's son), I found this on Wikipedia:
"This extremely complex chapter can be further broken down structurally. It consists of sixty paragraphs.
The first ten paragraphs are parodies of Latin and Anglo-Saxon language, the two major predecessors to the English language, and can be seen as intercourse and conception.
The next forty paragraphs, representing the 40 weeks of gestation in human embryonic development, begin with Middle English satires; they move chronologically forward through the various styles mentioned above.
At the end of the fiftieth paragraph, the baby in the maternity hospital is born, and the final ten paragraphs are the child, combining all the different forms of slang and street English that were spoken in Dublin in the early part of the 20th century."
That's a lot to be happening in one episode. I'm going to mark the paragraphs in my book and see if I can follow along with this.
Petra, thanks for pointing out the Sheila Variations. They look like they're going to be a really great resource. As for the question of whether an author is obligated to meet the reader half-way...I have mixed feelings. Part of me believes that the reader should make the effort and stretch to reach the space that the author inhabits. On the other hand, there has to be some responsibility that falls on the author to be comprehensible. It kind of reminds me of my current job. I work in a home for children with developmental disabilities such as autism, and one of our main goals is to teach socially appropriate communication. One of the guys I worked with when I first started actually had his own language. Once you learned it, you could communicate with him just fine, for the most part, but anyone who didn't know it wouldn't have been able to communicate with him. It was communication, but since it wasn't universal, it was considered a failure on our part. In the same way, when Joyce loses us, I feel like it's kind of a failure on his part.
Still, I'm really enjoying the challenge of figuring things out, so I can't fault Joyce too much. I do think that how you regard this book will be greatly influenced by the circumstances that you read it under, though. If someone had told me I had to read this for a class and laid out a schedule for reading it, even if they made up the exact same schedule that I've made for myself, I would probably rebel. You have to want to read Ulysses in order to get anything out of it.
And carol, I agree that Joyce could have made a great teacher. He may have annoyed you at times with all his allusions to things that you know nothing about, but when you finally understood what he was saying without going to the library and whipping out a reference book, I bet that feeling of triumph would have made it worth everything.
I had never thought about it in that respect Petra. He just thinks everyone communicates on his level. So he either did not care or he wrote it for the elite few who would understand.
"As for the question of whether an author is obligated to meet the reader half-way...I have mixed feelings. Part of me believes that the reader should make the effort and stretch to reach the space that the author inhabits. On the other hand, there has to be some responsibility that falls on the author to be comprehensible."Perfectly stated, Tani. This is what I was trying to get at.
Personally, I like a challenge and I like thinking about the meanings and such forth. However, there's a point where it becomes insane and, perhaps, a little consideration for the reader is required. Not much. If Joyce had dumbed Ulysses down too much it would take all the uniqueness, the turns and the twists out of the book.
I'm having an interesting reading experience with Ulysses but I've got help. I just wonder how the original readers of this book figured things out or whether Joyce gave lectures and wrote papers on the meaning of Ulysses.
I would have thoroughly enjoyed a seminar or series of lectures on Ulysses given by Joyce himself. That would have been impressive and educational on a lot of levels.
I think he most definitely would have made a good teacher. He'd be able to pull all sorts of aspects into a discussion.
Alas the world was deprived of him too soon. I think I read somewhere , I don't recall, he wrote Ulysses in an eighteen year time span. I think he started it as a young college student, and finally had a copy available for printing 18 years later. As I have said before he was still doing edits on it at the time of his death, I believe. Here at goodreads there is a James Joyce club. You can read a few of the posts. There should be knowlegable Joyceeans there.
Hi Petra and Tani,Joyce knew there was really no other way to write Ulysses because it is as much about language and the new form of the novel as it is about the Dublin characters. At the time it was published, 1922, the novel was widely considered "dead." The challenge for Joyce was to reinvigorate the novel and take it into an entirely new realm from its realist, naturalist traditions. Joyce's pastiche of styles, difficult as they can be, also illuminate and flesh out his characters in all their dimensions, private and public. Yes, the book is difficult, at times maddening, but if you spend enough time reading one or more of the many good guides for the book, it will be infinitely rewarding. Joyce once said all he wanted from readers is that they spend the rest of their lives pondering the meanings in Ulysses. Like many great books, Ulysses almost has to be "studied" and "puzzled out." It is, and was not meant to be, a breezy read. Now, that said, there are some passages in the book (the Mina Purefoy birth section, mainly) that I find unreadable, clever as it is. So, in my opinion, Joyce should have left out one or two of the sections, like that one, which, if you ask me, really does temporarily bog down the book. However, the rest of the novel? Magnificent! It's worth the time, the effort, the study. Also, as I said in a previous comment, I think the Homeric parallels are, in many cases, just way too much. It's like Joyce was forcing them into the story, twisting and squirming to make them fit. I'm puzzled by the readers who find Bloom boring or infuriating. I think he's one of the liveliest, most intensely human, most likeable characters in all of literature. He's a great pragmatist, curious about everything, his mind leaping with love of sensuous sensations of everyday things. He also possesses a keen skepticism, a sense of awe and wonder and a deep compassion for others. Of course he has his quirks. In the beach section, he practically turns into Humbert Humbert of Lolita, but the quirks make him all the more imperfectly human, and that's what Ulysses, after all, is about. Human beings, pathetic yet admirable in their tragic grandeur.
Denny Duck
Ah Denny I stand corrected. I think I had just read the beach section and it totally turned me against Bloom. To unsettling for me . But he is lively and as you say pathetic but admirable in his rambles , which make him all the more human. Probably the strongest Homeric parallels are in the last episode, even then it is a stretch of the imagination. As a note I did not care for Humbert as a character either.
"Joyce knew there was really no other way to write Ulysses because it is as much about language and the new form of the novel as it is about the Dublin characters. At the time it was published, 1922, the novel was widely considered "dead." I've got to hand it to Joyce. It must be incredibly defeating to know you've written a masterpiece that is considered "dead" and that no one will read. I can't imagine how it must have felt and how hard he had to work to bring the novel back to the people.
".......but if you spend enough time reading one or more of the many good guides for the book, it will be infinitely rewarding."
I agree....one needs a guide, which is what prompted my question. As an original reader of the novel, with no guide to rely upon, this seems like a mountain of a novel and not one that can be read and understood, even with a lot of pondering. Since the book is a study of language and style, was it ever meant as a true novel to be read or was it meant as a study of language?
"Joyce once said all he wanted from readers is that they spend the rest of their lives pondering the meanings in Ulysses."
They'd have to read it in its entirety first, wouldn't they? Otherwise, what's to ponder? I don't mean this in a snarky manner. It's one of the challenges that Joyce must have had to face.....the fact that people weren't reading his book (or were they?).
"Like many great books, Ulysses almost has to be "studied" and "puzzled out." It is, and was not meant to be, a breezy read."
I love a book that requires thought and "puzzling out" and, in no way, should Ulysses become a breezy read by any stretch of the imagination. However, (see above) people have to read it entirely in order to study and puzzle it out and that is, I think, the hardest part of this book (reading it through in its entirety).
"Now, that said, there are some passages in the book (the Mina Purefoy birth section, mainly) that I find unreadable, clever as it is. So, in my opinion, Joyce should have left out one or two of the sections, like that one, which, if you ask me, really does temporarily bog down the book."
Why leave out sections when making them a titch less difficult and "heavy" would help in readability and would make these sections add to the readers enjoyment and not bog them down? Again, not make them an breezy read but less dense. Mina Purefoy's experience is a part of the complete saga of Bloom's day. Leaving it out would change Blooms thoughts, the reader's experiences of Bloom's day and Stephen Dedalus's day as well. It's a needed episode to bring the story forward in it's entire scope.
"However, the rest of the novel? Magnificent! It's worth the time, the effort, the study."
Upon this first reading, I can't say it's "magnificent" but I am getting a strong feel for the amazement of the novel. For myself, I don't think I'm appreciating it as much as I would if I were reading it a second or third time. I may be wrong in that assumption but I think one needs a fair grasp of this story before one can thoroughly enjoy it. There would be less "work" and more "pondering and enjoying and coming to a deeper understanding". I'll have a better idea whether this theory is correct when I read the book the second time.
"Also, as I said in a previous comment, I think the Homeric parallels are, in many cases, just way too much. It's like Joyce was forcing them into the story, twisting and squirming to make them fit."
I'm interested in the parallels between Ulysses and The Odyssey but don't find it to be a big aspect of the story, for me. I suppose if one had studies The Odyssey the interest would be larger. But, for me, it's interesting to read the parallels in a Guide but not an aspect of the story that I look for when reading.
"I'm puzzled by the readers who find Bloom boring or infuriating. I think he's one of the liveliest, most intensely human, most likeable characters in all of literature. He's a great pragmatist, curious about everything, his mind leaping with love of sensuous sensations of everyday things. He also possesses a keen skepticism, a sense of awe and wonder and a deep compassion for others. Of course he has his quirks. In the beach section, he practically turns into Humbert Humbert of Lolita, but the quirks make him all the more imperfectly human, and that's what Ulysses, after all, is about. Human beings, pathetic yet admirable in their tragic grandeur."
I agree that Ulysses is about people and their humanity, their relationships with each other and their insecurities, happiness and sadness. It's "everyday" and it shows that our lives are interesting, meaningful, worthwhile despite the "everyday-ness" of them.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Beowulf on the Beach: What to Love and What to Skip in Literature's 50 Greatest Hits (other topics)Ulysses Annotated (other topics)
Ulysses and Us (other topics)
The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses (other topics)
The Sound and the Fury (other topics)
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Sorry, I can't seem to fix the above link.