"Blood Over Bright Haven" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

A few questions to get us started:


1. What did you think of the world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

[CBRetriever]

1. after getting 40% into the book = gruesome
2. main female character I dislike and like
3. I liked the magic = programming bit. Chapter 10 made me feel ill.
4. it's gonna be hard to finish

[Jacci]

I really liked the book, especially the ending!

[CBRetriever]

I'm hoping it gets better. I like grimdark, I don't like cozy, I like noir, but this book is having me like it and then having me dislike it.

[Netanella]

I really enjoyed this book! I, too, thought the ending was great, and I don't think it could have ended a different way for Sciona. I also enjoyed that the beginning and the ending chapters were linked with the running.

[Jay]

Fantastic world-building! Tiran is fleshed out so well that I didn’t even mind we didn’t get to see other parts of the world (except in the opening and thru the mirror). The magic system is perfectly ingenious: parallels to programming/coding. Spellograph is endearing: I want one! I enjoyed every single character presented, but Sciona is my absolute favorite—in fact, I think Sciona is the best character I have read this year. She is hilarious, tragic, spastic, hard-headed, oblivious, brainwashed, intellectual, and so very eager to do the ‘right’ thing, despite there being no ‘right’ in the Tiranish model at all. Her cleverness is portrayed to perfection, a character too obsessed with academic pursuits to notice anything much else, although Thomil suffices as just sparky enough for her attention to waver. I enjoyed how she tends to remember (surprising even herself) the little things he has said that even the reader doesn’t remember most of the time… that was hugely touching, subtle and deftly done. Cara turned out to be a gory delight! But still… it’s Sciona who shines here. I just love the MC to bits and will be rereading this just to enjoy the pile-on disaster that is poor Sciona’s inglorious life, and to thrill over her unwavering momentum that kicks and shoves the plot forward without letting it lag even once (not even during her suicidal manic rampage)! The ending made me shiver; I was disappointed that in the end Sciona… I just really wish she could have gone on, but at the same time, it was refreshing to have a book end exactly where it ought to end. I guess I can’t find fault with this book. It’s just very well done. Thanks, club, for helping me discover this book!

[Sue]

I loved everything about the book
everything is symbolic
We had a discussion about it in my book club and the question of whether Sciona is a "white savior"
she is not
in fact, what she did at the end did not save the world
it may have delayed the horrendiousness a bit, but Tiran will rebuild
Maybe even worse than before
what Sciona did showed the helplessness of the moment, the inability to change

as for Thomil, some deemed him as passive and did nothing, but seriously! what could he do? he had no resource, no backup, no weapons, no funds and a nephew to take care of
as a standalone book, it was superb
I put it up there with Babel

[CBRetriever]

wasn't it a niece and not a nephew?

I'm not expecting a feelgood after this book - it would take a a miracle/act of god to change things permanently and eventually Tiran will fall as they run out of source

[Ellen]

I really liked this book. It caused a very emotional reaction and the book has stayed with me even though I finished it a few weeks ago.

[Silvana]

I forgot most of the book but I remember being quite bored with the system-is-so-bad debates because it went on and on and on but the contents were the same. I did enjoy the very intricate magic system and I wish we had more in that world. Sciona is a flawed but competent character, I wish there's no romance but oh well. All in all, M.L Wang is an interesting writer, so far their two books (this and Sword of Kaigen) are good so I'll be looking forward to the next works.

[CBRetriever]

true - it would have been a good book without the romance angle

[Netanella]

Yea, but the romance worked as a romance (at least for me) because it was a sad ending, and again, of course, they couldn't have worked out as a couple anyway. Doomed to fail, just like the city.

[Harry]

i’m 50% through and although i expected the plot twist about the blight it still had me shook

[luna]

1. What did you think of the world?

I liked the world of Blood Over Bright Haven. Everything feels symbolic. The architecture, the magic system, the social hierarchy - all echo real-world issues like sexism, institutional rot, and the way a society can run comfortably on unseen violence as long as the beneficiaries don’t have to witness it. The parallels to the “glass ceiling” and gendered expectations were especially striking to me. Women in Tiran are boxed in at every level, yet we see our MC challenge those boundaries (along with those before her) in different ways. The city itself feels both dazzling and horrific; its beauty is built upon bloodshed that the people in power either don’t question or deliberately ignore for societal and personal gain.

2. What did you think of the characters?

Sciona is memorable honestly even a bit distasteful - in a very human way. She’s so academically obsessed that she overlooks the obvious, yet she genuinely wants to right what has been wrong, even though she’s completely oblivious to the fact that she cannot fix the broken system that shaped her. The ending really underscores how powerless she is against the very institution that produced her. She’s brilliant, but also thoroughly brainwashed - and one of the more interesting things about her is that she partially realizes it. That self-awareness flickers in and out, like she can see the bars of her cage only when the light hits a certain way. She has quirks, humor, and this frantic intellectual energy that makes her both endearing and exasperating. For someone so deeply human but academically obsessed, so conditioned and single-minded, she’s extremely selfish without meaning to be. But then, she has these moments of "accidental tenderness" (if you will) where she finds herself recalling details of Thomil's life that she didn't even consciously realize she tucked away in her memory, which is a surprise to herself and Thomil. Maybe even Cara too.


Thomil was interesting, yet guarded. He escaped one tragedy only to survive another, all while trying to protect Cara. Expecting him to do more than survive the circumstances he is given feels dramatically unrealistic. He is basically a prisoner to Tiran's system. The fact that he accidentally got "upgraded" as an assistant and was able to bounce ideas and insights off of and towards Sciona is a lot in itself. His choices are constrained at every turn. Within those limits, he does exactly what someone in his situation could do and his quiet endurance is its own kind of strength.


Cara was a vivid presence from start to finish. You can feel her wildness, youth, and volatility in every scene she’s in. She bursts off the page, both a product of the violence around her and a force of chaos all her own. I kind of wonder what will happen to her future more than Thomil or the other characters that crossed our paths as readers.

3. What worked or didn't for you?

I liked the magic system a lot, and I appreciated the "unhappy" non-traditional ending where not everything works out for everyone. Trian is kind of doomed, and even Sciona's final act at best delays the inevitable. Which oddly enough feels so tragically human. That sense of helplessness and the inability to meaningfully change a corrupt system made the world feel frighteningly realistic. I also appreciate that it's a standalone.


Neutral to the romance. It worked the way it panned out with the doomed-crushing-on-you-vibes, but I think it could have also worked out just as well if they turned out to be two people with a doomed friendship due to circumstances/society/etc.

4. Overall thoughts?

Worth the read! I don’t think it’s a new fave, but I’d definitely recommend it to the right kind of reader ~ someone who’d be intrigued by its themes, magic system, and the moral complexity of the world.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

Netanella wrote: "Yea, but the romance worked as a romance (at least for me) because it was a sad ending, and again, of course, they couldn't have worked out as a couple anyway. Doomed to fail, just like the city."

Same for me, the failed romance added a poignant element at the end that I liked.

I think I liked the idea, taken to the extreme, that grabbing and using resources without thought will inevitably hurt someone.

[Banshee]

I read the book a couple of months ago, but I still remember the emotional turmoil it gave me.

I probably cannot add anything knew to the discussion - I particularly agree with Jay. On one hand, the magic system was brilliant and original, however brutal and dark it was. On the other hand, the characters were expertly crafted and came alive on the pages. I particularly loved Sciona, who was such a tragic character. Highly intelligent and thirsty for knowledge and achievement, and yet beaten down by the system at every step. Brainwashed her entire life, and yet wanting to do the right thing. Trying to fix the system and even ready to pay the ultimate price in the world which is so wrong that there might be no fixing it. I might or might not have cried at the end.

The books with unhappy ending are the ones that stay with me the longest, so this novel will probably end up on my list of most memorable books.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Jay wrote: "Fantastic world-building! Tiran is fleshed out so well that I didn’t even mind we didn’t get to see other parts of the world (except in the opening and thru the mirror). The magic system is perfect..."

Agree!

I liked the book very much. It is a realistic fantasy about realpolitiks, which I suspect won’t be for everyone.

[Jay]

Sue wrote: "I loved everything about the book
everything is symbolic
We had a discussion about it in my book club and the question of whether Sciona is a "white savior"
she is not
in fact, what she did at the..."

Your club has a point!

Sciona does border on certain tropes, but ultimately doesn’t fit the accused profile. Yes, her character’s default demeanour is flavoured with hints of imperial supremacism… nobody can deny that.
But it’s not her fault!
It’s just a side-effect of being born directly into this sort of supremacist system. The story is about her brave fight to liberate herself from its intangible (biases/ignorance) and tangible (the highmages/home life) clutches.

Tragic but poignant messaging.

I thought it’d be interesting to list relevant themes and topics inspired by this book, after reading all the great comments here. Here are some which occurred to me after thinking about the overall storyline:

1. Gender Discrimination
2. Imperial Power Systems (here it’s based on dark academia and magic tech)
3. Cultural Erasure (the Kwen, and literally everyone outside of Tiran’s borders)
4. Invisible Genocides (we’ll never know just how many living things were sourced to death beyond the border)
5. Ethnic Profiling (class segregation/discrimination embedded in policy and stereotyped into everyday norms)
6. Systematic Misinformation
7. Political Propaganda
8. Religious Propaganda
9. Technology manipulated to serve as as pre-written Magic-services owned by a few, enthralling the populace into servile systematic assimilation
10. Moral Responsibility (Sciona works herself up to this theme both hilariously and soberingly; Thomil and Cara struggle to get past their ancestral anger and resentment— moral efforts on both ends expanded their minds, their capacities, their identities)
11. Repatriation (the knowledge stolen so long ago was returned to the world symbolically in Thomil and Cara’s escape, now empowered and enriched with true knowledge of their heritage, gifted to them by the first and last spellographing Tiranish meidre, a fact also carried away by the guy Sciona leaves a final note to, remember?)
12. Redemption? (Is this what Sciona’s whole self-sourcing unraveling stunt is about? Repentance? My conclusion was: maybe its her way of erasing all the guilt, not wanting to live with the full knowledge and implications of what her ancestors did, because she believes the atrocities done were unforgivable, a belief that may have crystallised in the face of Cara’s unmitigated rage)

Also, I have added Babel to my TBRs!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Jay wrote: "Sue wrote: "I loved everything about the book
everything is symbolic
We had a discussion about it in my book club and the question of whether Sciona is a "white savior"
she is not
in fact, what sh..."

Excellent analysis! and I agree.

[CosmicStargazer]

1. love the world. the magic concepts using technology and
programming was very novel.

2. didn't love the main characters. Cara was definitely my favourite.

3. I enjoyed how this wasn't a "feel-good" novel. it was dark and gruesome, and the politics and bigotry we very symbolic and referential.

4. I loved the writing. the book was good. I look forward to reading more books from this author. 8/10

[CJ]

I'll try and finish this one, but oof. It is a fast read, but largely because it is chock full of very familiar fantasy elements and is extremely HP-ish, right down to a mage-massacring Voldemort character. So far, the book lacks any notable thematic depth to sink my teeth into, so it all feels very YA-ish in a lazy way. The treatment of sexism and religion is very ham-fisted and blunt, and the characters aren't very nuanced, especially Sciona, who is annoyingly black-and-white and ridiculously naive. How is she suppose to be so smart yet never questioned anything she was taught about her culture and religion until Thomil came along? It's all a bit too "magical peasant/noble savage" trope (the cousin of the magical negro trope) for me.

Maybe the ending redeems it, but I don't have high hopes. Given the hype around this one, I am so far quite unimpressed.